Lionel Base 3

@MartyE posted:

Well to be perfectly honest I don't intend to use the App on my phone but a dedicated iPad mini.  I find the phone too small anyways and as you stated I don't want to have a call come in.  As far as updates and crashes, yeah possibly but unlikely.  I also will keep my hardware remotes.  I still prefer them but I still like the new technology.  I'm not writing off a new remote yet but I suspect if Lionel is inclined it may take a couple of years after Base3 is out depending on what functionality is put into it.

I'm sure many will use tablets.  I don't have a tablet or even a computer... just my phone. I wouldn't use a tablet for anything since my phone can already do everything I want.  Therefore, I have no intention of buying a quickly antiquated tablet for running my trains...  nor do I want my kids handling tablets anymore than I want them using my phone.  Everyone's situation is unique in this hobby and there's no one-size-fits-all answer, I know that.   I do hope to pick up a few more cab1L remotes to go along with my tmcc cab1 remotes and and I'll just keep using those systems until lionel has a better solution. Than this upcoming app and base.  Just my 2 cents.

"I do hope to pick up a few more cab1L remotes to go along with my tmcc cab1 remotes"

Just asking to be sure, that you have a command base 1L, as the cab-1L will not communicate with the TMCC command base?

@Landsteiner posted:

"I do hope to pick up a few more cab1L remotes to go along with my tmcc cab1 remotes"

Just asking to be sure, that you have a command base 1L, as the cab-1L will not communicate with the TMCC command base?

I have a base 2 and cab 2 set that the cab1L communicates with.  I keep the cab 2 out of use most of the time to protect it from breaking

@rplst8 posted:

True, but they are gone now!

Since these are "accessory" items, they *should* be something that hangs around for a long time. So you know, when new folks get into the hobby, they can have the same experience (the advertised experience no less) with the current cataloged products.

The Catalogs aren't advertising handheld remotes anymore, and haven't for the last three years. Even when MTH announced the last run of DCS remote, it took months for Train World to sell out of them. That's not exactly the panic buy and demand for remotes being proclaimed.

We've all had 20+ years to stock on the remote we wanted, I don't ever anticipate any one specific make/model product to be in production for my entire lifetime. I like the postwar ZW but it's long gone too and I don't expect my next favorite (the Z4000) to be in production for the next 25 years either. It along with the ZW-L will eventually be replaced with updated products.

@Dylan the Train Man posted:

Wi-fi remotes are a thing for DCC. There needs to be both Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS Wi-fi remotes. Perhaps the remote could be just the throttle knob (like the Cab-2), the whistle control, and the train brake control. A phone (Apple or Android) would slide into the top of the remote casing and provide a large touch screen. Both the remote piece and phone would be connected physically together, and the whole thing would be able to connect to either the Base-3 (or LCS Wi-fi Module and Legacy Base-2/Base-1L) or DCS WTIU (or original WIU and TIU). The remote part would work for both systems, of course.

I like this idea, and believe this will be the next physical remote to be produced.  The only issue you might run into is that you are talking about a universal controller to fit a phone that evolves in size over time.  The controller apparatus will have to be able to accommodate changes in phone sizes as time marches on.  Not a huge hurdle to overcome but it may detract from the aesthetics a bit.

@H1000 posted:

The Catalogs aren't advertising handheld remotes anymore, and haven't for the last three years.

I never said they were. I'm talking about the locomotives. Both MTH and Lionel advertise engines with a lot of gee-whiz features, many of which can only be accessed from a remote (or app). Not having a command base (whether TIU or WTIU or Base1L, Legacy Base, or Base3 respectively) is tantamount to false advertising for the newcomers.

Even when MTH announced the last run of DCS remote, it took months for Train World to sell out of them. That's not exactly the panic buy and demand for remotes being proclaimed.

We've all had 20+ years to stock on the remote we wanted, I don't ever anticipate any one specific make/model product to be in production for my entire lifetime. I like the postwar ZW but it's long gone too and I don't expect my next favorite (the Z4000) to be in production for the next 25 years either. It along with the ZW-L will eventually be replaced with updated products.

Still - they sold out of them. And yes, you, me, and the other forum members had time to stock up, but the new folks didn't.

I have no idea how many MTH remotes were made in the last run, but IMHO, selling out of a remote that nearly every customer that buys your products would want to have, in just a few months, is a sign there is more demand than supply, and you could probably charge more for it.

All this is to say, I think there is a market for a physical remote.

Lionel could actually carpe diem here pretty easily. The DCS patents are expired. If they could make a box that would would interface with PDI on one side and the little telephone jack that the remote uses on the other, and then have a physical remote that could control all Lionel and MTH trains - boom they win.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

I do hope to pick up a few more cab1L remotes to go along with my tmcc cab1 remotes and and I'll just keep using those systems until lionel has a better solution. Than this upcoming app and base.  Just my 2 cents.

The CAB1L is still in production, so it won't be a major challenge to find more of them.

@rplst8 posted:

I never said they were. I'm talking about the locomotives. Both MTH and Lionel advertise engines with a lot of gee-whiz features, many of which can only be accessed from a remote (or app). Not having a command base (whether TIU or WTIU or Base1L, Legacy Base, or Base3 respectively) is tantamount to false advertising for the newcomers.

Still - they sold out of them. And yes, you, me, and the other forum members had time to stock up, but the new folks didn't.

I have no idea how many MTH remotes were made in the last run, but IMHO, selling out of a remote that nearly every customer that buys your products would want to have, in just a few months, is a sign there is more demand than supply, and you could probably charge more for it.

All this is to say, I think there is a market for a physical remote.

Lionel could actually carpe diem here pretty easily. The DCS patents are expired. If they could make a box that would would interface with PDI on one side and the little telephone jack that the remote uses on the other, and then have a physical remote that could control all Lionel and MTH trains - boom they win.

Anything that goes out of production will eventually sell out. If those remotes had sold out in a day or two, someone would have noticed it as something that can make money in a hurry.  But watching the inventory of a canceled product (that we perceive as high demand and invaluable) slowly dwindle over months, tells the marketing & accounting departments all they need to hear.

I think a lot of people liked the idea that remotes & bases were still cataloged and often saw them available online but when the announcements dropped, buying panic ensued much like buying toilet paper during covid. Many folks on this forum have already professed how they have extra bases and remotes sittng quietly in the box waiting for their counterpart to fail. The newcomers can and will adapt to a newer system, if they like the old ones more they are still on the second-hand market, and as older modelers exit the hobby and move on in life, more and more of these systems will become available much like used postwar ZWs.

As for the new products not being in stock that's not by fault of Lionel or MTH, I'm sure both entities would have loved to have these money-making systems on the market within 12 months of the product announcements. This can be chalked up to a lot of untimely happenings that are covid related. To put some perspective on this, it took Lionel 30 years to finally come up with a decent replacement for the postwar ZW largely in part due to the Z4000 being introduced. Surely there was adequate demand in the market during those years for a nice high-end transformer?

I'll digress with this fact, Complex, two-way communication remotes with displays and dedicated firmware have been cancelled by all manufacturers in O-Guage. If the DCS App release 8 years ago was so bad, unliked, and publicly flogged for Lionel to see online, why was the CAB2 replaced with an app? These companies, albeit small, know way more about this market than any of us do.

@H1000 posted:

These companies, albeit small, know way more about this market than any of us do.

The prices for used 990 and 993 systems says otherwise.

@rplst8 posted:

The prices for used 990 and 993 systems says otherwise.

Put a couple hundred of those 990 & 993 systems on the bay or in stores and watch the prices plummet. It's just like the prices of WIU earlier this year. Folks were selling those for 400 to 500 bucks and then in June the supply from MTH was replenished and you could buy brand new ones from hobby shops for MSRP minus dealer discounts. Anyone paying more than MSRP for them now is being suckered.

If a newbie buys a new $1000 legacy engine and $500 of track. How do they control the engine. From what I've been reading in this forum Lionel doesn't have a control system available at this time. Do they have to try and purchase a used system. Am I misunderstanding this?

@Pup posted:

If a newbie buys a new $1000 legacy engine and $500 of track. How do they control the engine. From what I've been reading in this forum Lionel doesn't have a control system available at this time. Do they have to try and purchase a used system. Am I misunderstanding this?

You can still run it conventionally.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The CAB1L is still in production, so it won't be a major challenge to find more of them.

Don't you still need the 1L command base to go with it?

@Pup posted:

Don't you still need the 1L command base to go with it?

It works with the BASE3, that's the whole purpose of keeping it in production.

@Pup posted:

If a newbie buys a new $1000 legacy engine and $500 of track. How do they control the engine. From what I've been reading in this forum Lionel doesn't have a control system available at this time. Do they have to try and purchase a used system. Am I misunderstanding this?

You can run your new Legacy engine with Lionel's free LionChief Bluetooth app on your phone or tablet.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It works with the BASE3, that's the whole purpose of keeping it in production.

Then  Lionel has nothing on the market to control Legacy engines. A newbie has to wait until the Cab 3 is available. I have a Cab 1L system and I'm thinking that's the way I'm going forward. I'm just concerned that when it stops working I can't replace it. We're not sure that when the Cab3 becomes available that it won't be an Edsel. Lionel is making Lionchief look like their best option for control right now. I'm sorry for venting it's not at you.

@Pup posted:

Then  Lionel has nothing on the market to control Legacy engines. A newbie has to wait until the Cab 3 is available. I have a Cab 1L system and I'm thinking that's the way I'm going forward. I'm just concerned that when it stops working I can't replace it. We're not sure that when the Cab3 becomes available that it won't be an Edsel. Lionel is making Lionchief look like their best option for control right now. I'm sorry for venting it's not at you.

Keep your cab1L remote it works with the base3. If you don't use the cab3 app the base3 will still do everything your base1L does now.

This CAB 3 thing is the biggest disaster in Lionel history. Regardless of how it eventually will work (maybe) they have alienated way too many of the old schools players and for those entering the hob/by it presents way, way too many issues that they need to resolve.  Really ? a CAB-1 FROM 10 years ago?,  You go explain it to them why then cant run their expensive new toys until the genius boys at Lionel release the Cab-3 and they have to spend another $400 TO run their layout  What a joke.

@Don Beck posted:

This CAB 3 thing is the biggest disaster in Lionel history. Regardless of how it eventually will work (maybe) they have alienated way too many of the old schools players and for those entering the hob/by it presents way, way too many issues that they need to resolve.  Really ? a CAB-1 FROM 10 years ago?,  You go explain it to them why then cant run their expensive new toys until the genius boys at Lionel release the Cab-3 and they have to spend another $400 TO run their layout  What a joke.

This is how I feel. Maybe we should all buy Cab3's and store them away. Imagine if we had bought the girl's set in 1957 which was a disaster at the time. We could sell it today and buy some new engines and a Cab3.

"This CAB 3 thing is the biggest disaster in Lionel history."

Don't see this as remotely true.  Any locomotive bought in the last few years can be operated in conventional mode (as mentioned) or by the free LionChief app (as mentioned). In addition,  if you want command mode and a physical remote/handheld, the $50 Universal Remote will control all basic functions quite reliably and adequately of any recent Lionel locomotive.  If you have older command locos without Bluetooth, you presumably own a TMCC, Legacy or 1L set from some years ago.   If you don't own one, it's not Lionel's fault .   Having to use the app, the Universal Remote, etc. while awaiting the Base 3 is no big deal for most folks, I'd guess, for various reasons.

Conventional mode?  Oh please These new engines are designed and meant for the newer technologies.

"These new engines are designed and meant for the newer technologies."

The LionChief app and the Universal Remote are not conventional, and are newer command technologies, for those unfamiliar with them.  They have similar functionality to the older TMCC,  but are not quite as feature rich as Legacy.  One purpose of the Base 3 is to enable all of these command systems to function through one command base and, if desired, one remote (the new app,  or the no longer available cab 2,  or the still available cab-1L). 

@Don Beck posted:

Conventional mode?  Oh please These new engines are designed and meant for the newer technologies.

Maybe so, but everything that Lionel produces with the exception of the plain Lionchief models will run in conventional mode with transformer control.  Lionchief Plus, Lionchief Plus 2.0, TMCC, and Legacy all run just fine in conventional mode with just a transformer.

@Don Beck posted:

Conventional mode?  Oh please These new engines are designed and meant for the newer technologies.

I totally agree with this guy. The LionChief app is kinda cute but very limited. You’ll always have the internet experts telling you to just run conventional like that isn’t the absolute worst way to run modern trains.

If the Base 3 hardware and the CAB3 app turn out to be nothing more than a LionChief Bluetooth simulator then it will be a total waste.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

You’ll always have the internet experts telling you to just run conventional like that isn’t the absolute worst way to run modern trains.

Well, I don't run mine that way, but the comment was they wouldn't run conventional, that was incorrect.   I do, however, fully agree that conventional operation leaves a lot to be desired, which is why virtually everything I own is command equipped.

That being said, I know a ton of people that run conventional with modern stuff, I've never fully wrapped my mind around that mode of operation, but to each his own.

@Pup posted:

If a newbie buys a new $1000 legacy engine and $500 of track. How do they control the engine. From what I've been reading in this forum Lionel doesn't have a control system available at this time. Do they have to try and purchase a used system. Am I misunderstanding this?

Yes - you are.

A new Legacy engine can be run - a) conventionally or b) by Bluetooth control using the free, downloadable Lionel app and your cell phone or tablet device.

No additional hardware (bases, hand-held remotes, etc.) is required to be purchased.

Can’t see any fault with the complaint that there is nothing in current production to get the full feature set out of these new Legacy engines. The “well ackchewally” posts are worth a chuckle though. Someone without any Legacy hardware has to wait for the new base/app if they want to get the most operating value out of a new Legacy engine. I think this is a big time screwup on Lionel’s part. The LionChief Bluetooth app is really limited and conventional is just awful and has been since TMCC became commonplace.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Can’t see any fault with the complaint that there is nothing in current production to get the full feature set out of these new Legacy engines. The “well ackchewally” posts are worth a chuckle though. Someone without any Legacy hardware has to wait for the new base/app if they want to get the most operating value out of a new Legacy engine. I think this is a big time screwup on Lionel’s part. The LionChief Bluetooth app is really limited and conventional is just awful and has been since TMCC became commonplace.

All of that is certainly true, but I think we need also need to clear up the mistaken belief and thought process that anybody purchasing a new Legacy engine has just bought a shelf queen, incapable of being run or enjoyed without the additional purchase of old Cab-style hardware or waiting until the new Base 3 comes out.

While it is true that the current situation is disheartening and Lionel certainly shoulders some of the blame, the misconception that somebody buying a new Legacy engine without Cab-style hardware is essentially screwed, is out there and needs to be addressed and made clear that is not the situation.

Yeah I don't get it. Say I'm mostly new to the hobby. I have a post-war set from my father or grandfather that is in a box up in the attic. It runs, but doesn't have the "gee-whiz" factor that today's children want.  So, I buy a starter set like the Army set or Santa Fe Superchief set for Christmas one year. The kids seem to like it a lot, so now I pick up the Polar Express set for this Christmas.

Now I'm finding myself really interested in this again, and I buy a Legacy engine to see what everyone is talking about. So I pick up an L1 or maybe a Legacy Consolidation.

So, to control these three trains, I can use the remote that came with the sets. Once I get the Legacy engine, I need to download the app, since recommendations advise against using that old postwar transformer with my new locomotive. I find out, oh the app controls all three locomotives just fine. Or maybe I want to stick with a physical remote, so I get the Universal Remote, and it can control all three too.

Now the Base3 comes out. And you think I'm going to spend $500 on that so I can - control my three trains with a slightly better app? Oh, and I guess I need to buy a $170 CW80 or a $230 PowerHouse. And if I want to use a physical remote, I have to spend another $170?

Oh, and non of this helps me get my dad's postwar set controlled by a remote. I'll need a $130 PowerMaster to do that.

@Richie C. posted:

All of that is certainly true, but I think we need also need to clear up the mistaken belief and thought process that anybody purchasing a new Legacy engine has just bought a shelf queen, incapable of being run or enjoyed without the additional purchase of old Cab-style hardware or waiting until the new Base 3 comes out.

While it is true that the current situation is disheartening and Lionel certainly shoulders some of the blame, the misconception that somebody buying a new Legacy engine without Cab-style hardware is essentially screwed, is out there and needs to be addressed and made clear that is not the situation.

I commend Lionel for their backward compatibility over the years. The fact that you can run a 100 year old engine on a modern layout is awesome. The Base3 concept is commendable. Keeping with the backward compatibility concept but why would you buy an engine today with all the bells an whistles when you can't use the bells and whistles. So the fact is Lionel discontinued  2 products  before they had a new product to replace them with. If a legacy base or base 1L goes bad today the operator has nothing to replace it with to keep their operation the same. Hooking up your ZW and running conventionally is not a realistic option. I hope the Base 3 finally gets released and works as it should.

@rplst8 posted:

So I pick up an L1..........

NOOOOooooo!

@Richie C. posted:

the misconception that somebody buying a new Legacy engine without Cab-style hardware is essentially screwed, is out there and needs to be addressed and made clear that is not the situation.

Nothing has the full range of operating finesse and capability of the cab 2, period.

A cab 2 will out perform every other device when it comes to running trains realistically.

Enough folks....This product isn't even available yet!  Give it a break!  How about enjoying your trains and finding positive reasons to do so rather than just being so negative.  Some folks are never happy.....