Lionel Big Boy or Mth?

Model train stuff has 2 Big Boys listed on their website for 1999.00.

Mr. Muffins Trains in Indiana has BB 4014s for $1,959 and free shipping; I ordered mine from Steve, the owner (very patient and easy to talk to); showed up by FedEx 2 days later.  He mentioned that he had access to ~40 of them.

RickM46

I am for my small temporary layout and run at speed step 96; no issues.

RickM46

Rickm46, I know it works but I think it looks bad with all the overhang but hey what do I know?

Well, I am an MTH fan and likely always will be.  But I have started buying Legacy and Vision engines because of all the extra operating features over MTH.  I also find Legacy to be a more robust system and less prone to quirky behavior (although I do believe DCS is a more feature-rich platform).  On these two bases alone, there is a fun factor to be considered.

In any event, I own the VLBB and run it a lot. You wouldn't be "paying $500 for a depleting coal load."  You'd be paying this money for the following differences:

-a more detailed model in that it includes the front of the locomotive opening to reveal a detailed inside as well as tender front doors that open

-in addition to stack and whistle steam, blow-down effects

-a variable glow ash pan

-fat boy speakers with adjustable volume in both the locomotive and tender

-depleting coal load

-the wheel spin feature

- the LCS stuff (although not sure it matters if not running on Lionel Fasttrack)

-the shroud (and respective synched smoke chuff/puff feature when shroud is in-place)

-no shipping fees in either direction for warranty repairs

-a 2-year warranty

-and a warranty turn-around time that, in my experience, is far superior (measured in months, not weeks)

And, not that it matters, but the VLBB was to some extent a limited production piece that it would be reasonable to assume would better hold its value.  

Having said all that, it would be hard to actually compare given the MTH BB isn't yet available. 

Peter

Actually, you bring up a good point.  I am headed toward O82 for my layout - I want to keep the curves as gradual as possible for it and maybe decrease the over hang a bit.

RicKM46

Thank you PJB -- that comparison is helpful.

One other thing that would sway me is whether I lived in driving range of either Lionel or MTH.  More specifically, it seems like that given the frequency of repairs required on some of these new high-end locomotives, if I lived where I could drop off and pick up for service, that would be a persuasive reason for me to buy one over the other.

I've run mine at full speed on O72 on my floor loop and it took it just fine.  The train it was pulling stayed on the rails as well.  In fact I haven't had a single thing come off the track at full speed with O72, but then I haven't tried all of my stuff yet.

I ran mine on 0-138 and there's still overhang.  Though it looks much better than 0-72!

You should see the overhang on a real articulated steam locomotive, even a lowly Challenger, on a 10 degree curve, or even a 14 degree curve. 

Didn't "overhang" get exhausted on another thread a few weeks back?  I think my comment there was, in essence, that philosophically the model is engineered to do exactly what the real thing was designed to do, except that the model maximizes on the concept.  Just me, but I enjoy every aspect of this thing, including the well-engineered marvel of a boiler that smoothly swings in and out of position just like the real thing.

Seriously, if overhang is such an issue, I cringe to think what those concerned about overhang think about the third rail running all around their layouts! 

Peter   

You hit the nail squarely on the head, Peter!!!!!

As mentioned, previously, JLC Legacy BB is worth considering. As a model, it is nearly identical to the new VL BBs, has Legacy and the key Legacy features, and is decidedly easier to purchase (~ $700 less, YMMV). Its only potential drawback (depending on the expectations of the user) is that it has the incorrect whistle sound. The JLC BB gets one into the game nicely for a lot less.

Food for thought.

Bob

Overhang? Who cares really... We cant make everyone happy. (The overhang is bad ,I cant run it on a 4x8 sheet of plywood) blah blah blah ..(I want  lionel to make lionmaster engines so i can run my challenger on 0-27) Blah blah ... Go buy H.O. if you have a 4x8 layout.. So silly you have a 34 1/2 inch engine its fregin big...

Guys,

I didn't want to derail this thread on the overhang issue.  Not my intent.  It means different things for different folks.

And, yes, the overhang has been beat to death in many threads.

Back to topic for the OP: The JLC Legacy BB is a great locomotive.  Another one of my favorites in my UP fleet.  Glass smooth runner, great sound, and nice detail. 

You know this is your little world that you build  and you can run it any way that makes you happy and good for you---Mark

Gunrunnerjohn, I would have to agree with you that the sound and smoke features are really cool. Those are the only things I like about the VL Bigboy. 

PJB's post above seems to run counter to your assertion that the MTH models are more detailed than the new Lionel Big Boy.  What's more detailed on the MTH Big Boy as compared to the Lionel Vision Line model?

Anyone got comparison photos of MTH's scale version vs. the JLC or VLBBs?

AND FREE SHIPPING FOR REPAIRS WITHIN THAT 2 YEAR PERIOD!

Norm,

Earlier today I received notification from Lionel that my VL Big Boy will be returned (fixed, I hope) to me next Monday. As I had planned, I will post pictures of it next to the MTH 20-3414-1 Premier Big Boy.

Alex

I'm curious, was the Lionel warranty service for their premium products, say, a 700E, any different than for their lower end and more common stuff, like a 224?

Sounds good Alex. Maybe you can compare the boiler lengths as I always heard the MTH was too long. I never compared for myself and my interest in UP power has all but faded away. I still have a JLC Challenger and BB boxed up somewhere though...

Here's the two Lionel versions, compared.  

Though the thread deals with a different subject, there are lots of photos to show the details.

Will compare all 3 Lionel models when I have some time.

I'm not surprised that the original TMCC BB is off there 86. Did you ever measure length of the boiler to the end of the cab roof on the two? When the JLC was coming out, it was said that it would share nothing at all with that first one.

MTN - while I try to read every GRJ in a thread I read (usually very informative), in this case I don't believe I saw GRJ's post.  In any event, my post was intended only to point out broad stroke differences (the things mentioned - the boiler front opening door and the tender functional doors). It could be that MTH's release may have more rivets or tubes or other fine details - but won't know till issued.

Both Lionel and MTH Big Boys are nice models but both manufacturers got the back of the cab detailing wrong. Although not a vestibule cab, the Big Boys had two doors in the middle, on the back of the cab, not curtains. The cab was enclosed. Sunset Models didn't do it right either..........

you are correct Paul

My vote it to go with the VLBB for the three following reasons:

1. Sound

2. Sound

3. Sound

It is AWESOME!!

I went with the Lionel Big Boy. I got it today, but I have other work to do in the room and if I take it out.....  I'll never get the other stuff done!!!   But after reading all of the posts, I know I made the right decision.  I was stuck in the postwar world.  Now my life will never be the same!!!!   It all start with the Monon Passenger set.  I have to stop listening to the NOTCH 6 podcast.  He review both engines and I was hooked. I am afraid to listen on Monday....  Maybe my credit card company will raise my limit.....

You will not regret it!

I got mine last Thursday and have been learning its characteristics ever since - so many and so awesome.

It took awhile for me to read the manual.

But, it is only the beginning.

I wound up getting the 990 Legacy Controller, then the ZW-L transformer.

Took awhile to read their manuals too.

Hopefully, you know you need a minimum of O72 track.

RickM46

And now it starts.

Well, yes and no. The UP "all weather cab" design had a pair of fold-away doors assemblies across the entire back wall of the cab. All "Big Three" locomotive models had this arrangement, i.e. the FEF-2 & FEF-3 4-8-4s, the 3900 class 4-6-6-4s, and the 4000 class 4-8-8-4s. Surprisingly the UP did have some 4900s and 4000s equipped with cab curtains, although photos of them are hard to find. The cab curtains would only have been used in more warmer weather, when the back door arrangement was folded-away, and fully open. 

In preparation for the colder months, the shop force would unfold the rear door arrangement, and then install steam coils on the center, fixed portion of the back wall. There were two doors, one on the Engineer's side and one on the Fireman's side of the back wall for entering and exiting the cab.

As a side note, Lionel did a pretty good job of modeling the "closed-up" rear of the cab, on their model of FEF-3 #844.

Here's a shot of the BB with enclosed cab.

Notice the third big red dial. Also, past MTH BB tenders have a different marker and backup light arrangement then the Lionel VL BB tender. 

Also, I notice the new VL BB at idle does not have that familiar loud thumping boiler sound I hear on most other Legacy steams. Anyone know if that is prototypical to the BB or Lionel simply did not include that sound? 

Joe 

Somewhat off topic:  But as Hot Water started mentioning the cab curtain/enclosure history of the Big Boys in detail, it reminded me of my visit to the 4005 in Denver a few years ago.  If anyone finds themselves in Denver for whatever reason, the museum is worth a visit.  It's a close cab ride to the Airport and also has lots of cars and motorcycles on display.

What's somewhat unique about the 4005 (unfortunately) is that it was involved in a tragic accident as a repair crew working on a switch off the UP Main didn't get it closed in time.  The 4005 hit it at speed....and both the fireman and engineer were killed as the Big Boy went tumbling off the track.  You can still see signs of the damage and its subsequent repair in the cab.

The museum also has a display of tools used to work on and maintain the BB.  For a civilian like me used to working on cars, these tools/wrenches are HUGE and have to be seen to be believed.

There is a simple fix for that, AF big boys used the same chip with the correct sound. But side by side the new big boy blows away the sound of the older one

Not to derail the topic, but I never understood why O Gauge manufacturers (with the exception of 3rd Rail I believe) do not include the third red ash-pan valve wheel on the Big Boy.  

Back on topic, my vote is for the VL Big Boy.  Superior sound and better details. 

Here's a few shots taken awhile back. Hard to see but the MTH BB is about two inches longer then the JLC with is exactly the same as the VL BB. I long ago sold the MTH BB but if I recall, it had the enclosed cab.

Also, notice the marker and backup light are different.

Have no idea which one is correct.

Joe

The overall length of the prototype BB is 132 ft 9 ¹⁄₄ in, which translates to 33.19" at 1:48 scale. 

The MTH rendition of the markers appears more correct, at least for 4004.  However, there's this picture of 4501...

Yes, checking the books, the rear of the MTH tender is "more correct". 

Now, what is the picture of 4501 all about?