Does Lionel have any plans on offering a hand held controller that is equivalent to the Cab 2 which would have a screen. (hopefully this is in the right topic area of the forum)
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There are no announced plans for any physical remote but a continuation of production of the CAB1L. My crystal ball is in the shop, so that's all I know. 
No. Why would they when a smartphone has the touchscreen and can have as many buttons and screens as one could conceive. Development of a comprehensive application makes much more sense.
@RixTrack posted:No. Why would they when a smartphone has the touchscreen and can have as many buttons and screens as one could conceive. Development of a comprehensive application makes much more sense.
If you're being facetious feel free to ignore the following. If not please read and consider this:
Thanks for dismissing the OP's comments as trivial and unworthy of serious consideration.
Using a smartphone for control of trains is not simple, it's definitely not a no-brainer, and it makes poor sense to too many people.
In case you haven't been following things on the forum very closely, a spirited discussion fires up at least once a week over the suitability of a phone in control situations.
Simply put many people maintain that a smartphone is a poor device for controlling things that move because of the need to take your eyes off a moving train in order to get your finger in the correct position to activate one of those many buttons, and the imprecision of the touch of a finger on glass.
It appears that you've conveniently left out the fact that this discussion exists, and you're also summarily attempting to close out the discussion because it does.
Know that the issue is far from closed, except maybe by two large manufacturers/marketers that have no problem ticking off their long-time customers.
Thanks for attempting to shut down the debate before it's finished but that's not going to happen, especially in such a flippant way.
Mike
I'm afraid Mike does make some good points stated above. For me, my medium-sized layout has been built out for years now and I've been happy with a 2 train operation and even happier with a transformer for each loop (a Lionel CW80 and a Lionel 180w brick). For control I use one Lionel Base 1L and 2 Cab 1L remotes, one for each loop. What could be simpler?
This system has worked well for several years and I'm not about to change anything or move up to the next level of control, whatever that may be. As far as a smartphone vs. a hand-held remote, I prefer my Cab 1Ls. If they ever fail, then I will revert back to conventional control and probably begin dismantling the layout and sell the trains. The layout is nearing the end of its life anyway.
I will not or have any desire to run trains, or anything else with a phone.
We wouldn't be here if a standardized control system had been in place, DCC like H O has had for years.
@feet posted:We wouldn't be here if a standardized control system had been in place, DCC like H O has had for years.
But we are here, and, unfortunately, wishing we were somewhere else won't help anything. Seems the train control world has moved to a software-based land, where hardware obsolescence doesn't present a problem. Much easier to let Apple and Samsung worry about that.
I spoke directly with Dave Olsen about this. There are no plans to make a new hardware remote to replace the Cab 2. Its a matter of economics. He explained that to design and build a new remote with screen displays, in today's economy, would cost $1000 or more. They decided to go with an app based on this cost. Dave also said that if the economics changed in the future they would consider building a new remote. While I don't like an app for controlling trains I can understand their decision. Whats the point of building a remote if no one is willing to shell out that kind of money?
Thankfully I have a cab2, and I recently acquired a Cab 1L. Lionel is still making the Cab 1L so at least they are still making a basic remote. Lionel must still see the value in a hardware remote since they continue to make the 1L. So the best suggestion would be to use the app when doing advanced programming when you need the app but when just running trains, use the cab1L. Its a compromise I can accept to help keep costs down.
@breezinup posted:But we are here, and, unfortunately, wishing we were somewhere else won't help anything.
The fact that neither the DCS or Lionel app hasn't been updated in years looks like Apple and Samsung aren't worrying about our little corner of the world. The idea of using a retired phone went out the window for the Lionel app, it doesn't work on a Samsung Galaxy Note 4, but does on my Samsung Galaxy S21.
If I have to use a current phone for a remote, news flash, remotes cost $1,000 right now! 
As long as we keep buying their products, there is no incentive for either manufacturer to listen to what the customers want. The only thing that will possibly get the message across is if the manufacturers start choking on their supplies or stop receiving enough "BTO" orders to remain viable. Nothing will change unless the money stops flowing. End of story.
@Joe Fermani posted:He explained that to design and build a new remote with screen displays, in today's economy, would cost $1000 or more. Whats the point of building a remote if no one is willing to shell out that kind of money?
Used cab 2s are getting over $1000 on the secondary market.
A base without a handheld at $500 isn't exactly cheap either.
Plenty of modelers have no problem dropping $2500 for 1 locomotive but find it ludicrous to spend $1000 on a remote that can operate many locomotives.
No one wants to spend $1000 on the cab 2 as it's been produced, but a properly upgraded/ revamped version "might" coax folks to open their wallets.
How many people have sold off their Tmcc locomotives to buy the same model with extra whistles and bells for substantially more? How many VL bigboys does anyone need? Yet there have been subsequent runs with the same enthusiasm every time.
Like many of you have mentioned, I prefer using a handheld that has physical buttons and the red speed controller. Running trains with my phone or I Pad and touching glass buttons does not interest me at all. I will buy a Cab 1L as a backup and alternative controller, since it looks like I may some day have to use that full time.
I still think the future of the hardware remote will or should be a hybrid of a smart device with a dock that contains the basic controls. You will still be able to update those special features while maintaining the most used controls. I know easier said than done. In reality both systems could map the same functions to the controls. Of course you would need to be able to adapt to different device sizes and such but it seem plausible.
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@gunrunnerjohn posted:If I have to use a current phone for a remote, news flash, remotes cost $1,000 right now!
While I do agree with that, how many would complain that a new cab remote costs over $1000. I don't like lionel's decision to go with an app but I understand it. Touch screens are not precise enough for my taste to control a moving machine. A good comprise could be to offer a new remote without screens but give you full legacy control.
I'm not seeing the screen as the major stumbling point, toys come with LCD displays.
@MartyE posted:I still think the future of the hardware remote will or should be a hybrid of a smart device with a dock that contains the basic controls. You will still be able to update those special features while maintaining the most used controls. I know easier said than done. In reality both systems could map the same functions to the controls. Of course you would need to be able to adapt to different device sizes and such but it seem plausible.
I like this concept. Basically the phone app is what we are already have on the Cab2 remote
Feet is right in pointing out that if the O scale manufacturers would have come up with a standardized control system years ago, O scalers wouldn't be in the mess we're in with PS1, PS2, PS3, TMCC, early Legacy, current Legacy, and Lion Chief series. Rather ridiculous when you think about it.
And although Breeze is also right in suggesting that it is what it is and that we can't do anything about it now, a standardized control system that HO an N scales have had for years, sure would have been nice to have in O. An airline pilot friend who's been in HO for years just chuckles when ever I mention something about Lionel's latest Legacy features. He has all standardized DCC stuff, including lights, sounds, wireless hand-held remotes, etc., and it's rather impressive. Not to mention a more realistic looking layout with 2 rail track instead of 3.
And DCC works just fine on 3 rail track, the problem is all those thousands of DCS, TMCC, Legacy, AC motored loco's everybody all ready owns. As mine die they are getting DCC replacement decoders, but very few people have a small enough roster to make that kind of change. The decoder I use along with the higher watt speaker and the keep alive ( think BCR ) cost about $200 with tax and shipping per loco. But I get one hardware remote that runs my MTH, Lionel, K-Line, Williams, and Weaver loco's. The only one I can't run with DCC is an old lionel scout I got from my uncle that has an AC motor. As far as new loco's go, all PS3 engines will run on DCC, so MTH and Atlas are a go.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The fact that neither the DCS or Lionel app hasn't been updated in years looks like Apple and Samsung aren't worrying about our little corner of the world. The idea of using a retired phone went out the window for the Lionel app, it doesn't work on a Samsung Galaxy Note 4, but does on my Samsung Galaxy S21.
If I have to use a current phone for a remote, news flash, remotes cost $1,000 right now!
Don't know about certain android phones, but my 7 year old iPhone 7 Plus works for this, which can be purchased for less than $100. I guess there's an assumption that Lionel will have to upgrade their app with the rollout of the Cab 3.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Feet is right in pointing out that if the O scale manufacturers would have come up with a standardized control system years ago, O scalers wouldn't be in the mess we're in with PS1, PS2, PS3, TMCC, early Legacy, current Legacy, and Lion Chief series. Rather ridiculous when you think about it.
The existence of DCS as a separate control system is because Mike Wolfe refused to "partner with" Lionel and use the then-existing Lionel TMCC control system, like Atlas O and 3rd Rail did. He insisted on developing his own control system, apart from Lionel. As a result, there are two different O gauge control systems.
Don't Digitrax and NCE still make DCC remotes? Instead of what appears to be a difficult and lengthy process of just getting a new base into production, why couldn't Lionel contract with another company like NCE or Digitrax to develop a new remote? Those companies have the expertise in building remotes. Although it would require them to come up to speed on Lionel's command protocols, I can't believe it would be that difficult a problem.
Lionel just doesn't seem to have enough staff to keep up with the Legacy applications in the engines and accessories while simultaneously developing a new command base. Contracting out development of a remote could be feasible.
Ken
"The existence of DCS as a separate control system is because Mike Wolfe refused to "partner with" Lionel and use the then-existing Lionel TMCC control system, like Atlas O and 3rd Rail did. He insisted on developing his own control system, apart from Lionel. As a result, there are two different O gauge control systems."
While this certainly complicates things, at least the 2 systems can peacefully coexist on the same layout. The bigger problem IMO is the refusal to continue production / support of the designated remotes. We hear the "obsolete technology" excuse a lot but consider how long the Lionel ZW has been around and how many people still use it.
@BlueComet400 posted:We hear the "obsolete technology" excuse a lot but consider how long the Lionel ZW has been around and how many people still use it.
LCD or liquid crystal display technology is no longer being produced. It has been supplanted by OLED technology. The same technology used in television monitors and cellphones. By moving to a screen-based control device, all future technologies can be supported by simple application modification without requiring a new and more expensive apparatus. Your reference to a ZW is humorous.
"LCD or liquid crystal display technology is no longer being produced. It has been supplanted by OLED technology."
That's great information to have--thank you. I'm no electronics expert (my ZW reference obviously proves that), but I have to believe there is still a way to manufacture a designated remote, for which there appears to still be demand. If the demand weren't there, threads like this wouldn't continue to come up. I'm pretty sure the manufacturers would find a way to make it happen if sales declined as a result.
@RixTrack posted:LCD or liquid crystal display technology is no longer being produced. It has been supplanted by OLED technology. The same technology used in television monitors and cellphones. By moving to a screen-based control device, all future technologies can be supported by simple application modification without requiring a new and more expensive apparatus. Your reference to a ZW is humorous.
Well, that's not really true. For specific applications like phones and TV, that's true. However, there are still tons of small LCD panels being manufactured for industrial and other uses. Please stick to the facts, the type of panels used in small remote controls are almost exclusively still LCD.
Small Lcd Screen manufacturers & wholesalers
141,362 products found from 7,440 Small Lcd Screen manufacturers & wholesalers
Are LCD Panels Headed Into Obsolescence?
A quote from above: LCD panels still exist because they can produce good quality images at a low cost.
Also, you keep missing the mark, many of us don't want a screen-based control device! Why is that so difficult for some folks to comprehend?
I agree with @kanawha. Ring Engineering (RailPro) is also a small company, and they are selling a remote with control knob and a video display for $299. RailPro is also a "proprietary" system geared toward larger-scale trains; I doubt their market space is bigger than Lionel's. So it's not impossible, or even infeasible to make and sell a physical remote in the current economy. Honestly I think Lionel underestimated the adverse response to their decision.
They might reach out to some of these companies, and explore how much it would cost to interface their existing controllers to a Legacy base. This could be a win-win proposition, as it would create economies of scale for the other company. My $.02.
There are many possibilities for a knob. I have an idea for one. I just need a tech partner.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The fact that neither the DCS or Lionel app hasn't been updated in years looks like Apple and Samsung aren't worrying about our little corner of the world. The idea of using a retired phone went out the window for the Lionel app, it doesn't work on a Samsung Galaxy Note 4, but does on my Samsung Galaxy S21.
If I have to use a current phone for a remote, news flash, remotes cost $1,000 right now!
And yet my Galaxy S5 which is of the exact same vintage as your note-4 works perfectly with both apps from Lionel and MTH and only costed about $30. The note-4 is a bit more of a specialty smartphone and some apps have to be designed specifically for it in some cases. The fact that the app doesn't work with your Note 4 is an app development problem by Lionel and should be addressed there. IMO the current Lionchief APP is poorly written and needs to be replaced... wait, I think Lionel is doing that now.
Hint, another trick you can do to get a cheap modern smartphone. Goto Walmart and buy a NEW Straight-Talk smartphone for around $50 or so and then don't buy any service for it. Take it home, connect it to Wi-Fi & Bluetooth trains and you're set!
@Joe Fermani posted:Touch screens are not precise enough for my taste to control a moving machine.
You should watch how kids play games like Minecraft and use the multi-touch interface on tablets in STEM class to control robots and drones. Our seed dealer uses an overhead crane controlled by a small tablet to load bulk seed containers on our farm trucks, no physical controls and he's handling 2500 lbs. 8 feet above ground.
@Ted S posted:Ring Engineering (RailPro) is also a small company, and they are selling a remote with control knob and a video display for $299.
The Railpro device is basically a small tablet with a single control knob. There are no other physical buttons or controls, everything else runs on a touch screen. You could do this now with your current smartphones by remapping the volume control keys on the side of the phone to do whatever that knob does on its CW or CCW input.
@H1000 posted:Hint, another trick you can do to get a cheap modern smartphone. Goto Walmart and buy a NEW Straight-Talk smartphone for around $50 or so and then don't buy any service for it. Take it home, connect it to Wi-Fi & Bluetooth trains and you're set!
Hint: I can't believe that people simply aren't getting the idea that not all of us have any desire to use a phone to run the trains! It's been said hundreds of times, but it's obviously not sinking in. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Hint: I can't believe that people simply aren't getting the idea that not all of us have any desire to use a phone to run the trains! It's been said hundreds of times, but it's obviously not sinking in.
Hundreds of times by the same group of 50 people isn't going to make much of an impact at Lionel. 😉
I think there are slightly more than 50 people that have the same mindset.
@H1000 posted:Hundreds of times by the same group of 50 people isn't going to make much of an impact at Lionel. 😉
If smartphones were that superior to physical remotes, more manufactures would be ditching the remotes. TVs/Play Station/XBox (and many more) all continue to use hardware remotes. How many times do you have to tap a button more than once in order for it to read the tap on a phone? It happens to me all the time. I'll keep my remote. 
@Joe Fermani posted:If smartphones were that superior to physical remotes, more manufactures would be ditching the remotes. TVs/Play Station/XBox (and many more) all continue to use hardware remotes. How many times do you have to tap a button more than once in order for it to read the tap on a phone? It happens to me all the time. I'll keep my remote.
Video Game Manufacture has more resources to invest in R&D to continue evolving their handheld remotes. Sony probably sold more PlayStations this week than Lionel will sell Base3s for its entire production run. Video game consoles are given that you need that style of remote and look at how many styles and types they make for different experiences (even some that don't have buttons!). But you forgot to include the massive amount of tablet-based games out there that are touch-screen only.
My Roku did come with a remote but the Roku app that I have on my phone has more functionality than the standard remote it came with. Newer TVs are getting the same way, our OLED tv came with a very basic remote and you click through multitudes of icons to search for the thing you want to use. The app for my TV on my phone allows me to create shortcuts and turn it on with user profiles (preset the volume, channel, and brightness) for myself or my wife, again something my remote can't do.
In my day job, we are developing software & connectivity all the time for clients who want apps instead of remotes. It is always the same reason, consumer-driven. Their customers don't want dozens of remotes laying around the house to get lost and an icon-driven interface on their phone is what sells the product. We just completed an app for an electric fireplace that replaces a remote. The app does way more than their previous remote model. You can monitor/set the temp, set sleep timers with ease, change the lighting effects with more customization, set temp based on time, and program in safety timers so it turns themselves off automatically if you are not home.
I'm with MartyE above, the next physical remote you see from either manufacturer is going to be a hybrid model that uses the current app with an add-on gaming-style remote or custom-made piggyback hardware that will need a device with the app installed.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:There are no announced plans for any physical remote but a continuation of production of the CAB1L. My crystal ball is in the shop, so that's all I know.
John, did you misplace your hand held crystal ball remote?🤔😁
@H1000 personally I think the rubbery buttons on the side of my iPhone have poor tactile feedback; for speed control a knob seems more logical. Lionel is still offering its CAB-1L and it has a knob. If necessary, I would choose it over a touch screen device. However: I wasn't impressed by the original CAB-1. Its knob had a vague motion and lacked detents. Part of the issue with the original CAB-1 was its "acceleration" feature, and use of relative speed steps. I'm not sure how the CAB-1L handles this. I do know that all of those shortcomings were resolved by the CAB-2, and now it's gone!
CVP Products (Airwire) is another small company that offers a remote control system for model trains with a physical controller. Their controller doesn't have a touch screen or graphics array, just a basic LCD display. But it fits nicely in your hand, has a multitude of physical buttons and a precise knob with detents. It also retails for less than the RailPro controller:
https://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_wireless_throttles.php
Clearly, many folks on the Forum liked the CAB-2 and still want an improved physical controller with a knob. I've mentioned a few small companies that build and sell RR control systems with physical controllers. So I don't accept Lionel's claim that it's impossible or too costly. Partnering with one of these other companies (NCE, Ring Engineering, or CVP Products) might be a way to give us something more informative and precise than the CAB-1L at an acceptable cost.
While I too prefer a hardware remote I am keeping an open mind until I have the app in hand. I understand the concerns but I also see the potential of expanding feature sets with a smart device.
I still remember when DCS came out with it's screen folks were saying the same thing about watching a screen. I said previously that I paid attention to running and realized I look at the remote more than I thought I did. Your mileage may vary. I'm sure if making a hardware remote is as easy, and inexpensive as folks here say it is and have all the features people want then Lionel might take a hard look at another remote but I think getting Base3 out is a priority.
When they release a new feature not supported by the hardware remote but in the app they'll have to hear it all over again but I guess that's life. I'm not sure they can satisfy everyone.
@ToledoEd posted:John, did you misplace your hand held crystal ball remote?🤔😁
I dropped it and the screen cracked. 
@MartyE posted:I'm sure if making a hardware remote is as easy, and inexpensive as folks here say it is and have all the features people want then Lionel might take a hard look at another remote but I think getting Base3 out is a priority.When they release a new feature not supported by the hardware remote but in the app they'll have to hear it all over again but I guess that's life. I'm not sure they can satisfy everyone.
I simply don't believe making a hardware remote is a expensive as Lionel claims. As for new features not supported by hardware, the game controllers simply have lots of programmable buttons. Somehow they managed to fit all the new features into the CAB2 from 2006 to current day with just software updates, not a bad track record.
I'll predict that if the lack of a remote starts seriously impacting sales, suddenly it'll be more cost-effective to make a remote.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I simply don't believe making a hardware remote is a expensive as Lionel claims. As for new features not supported by hardware, the game controllers simply have lots of programmable buttons. Somehow they managed to fit all the new features into the CAB2 from 2006 to current day with just software updates, not a bad track record.
I'll predict that if the lack of a remote starts seriously impacting sales, suddenly it'll be more cost-effective to make a remote.
Maybe you're right but remember....
Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!
Time will tell. Until then there is nothing I can do about it so I'm not going to get my undies in a bunch.
@MartyE posted:Maybe you're right but remember....
Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!
Time will done. Until then there is nothing I can do about it so I'm not going to get my undies in a bunch.
Touche! 
No worries, my undies are safe, I have several CAB1L remotes and a number of CAB2 remotes. I won't be depending on a phone any time soon.
My guess is Lionel has at most 2-3 people working on control systems. Their priority is getting the Base 3 out. They know those who want a physical remote for their current locos can use the cab-1L or Universal Remote. The latter does not require a command base and operates all previous LionChief, LionChief+, LionChief +2.0 and recent Legacy locos. The former works for those who need a replacement or additional remote to replace or add to their cab-2.
Most to all of the folks here worrying about the lack of a cab-2 successor already have a TMCC or Legacy setup. So you could see how developing a cab-2 successor is on the back burner at best. New folks can use the Universal Remote for the time being; more experienced hobbyists are already set with command equipment for the time being.
Once the Base 3 is out, I'm sure they will be monitoring the market for the needs for something more versatile/capable than the cab-1L/Universal Remote in the way of hardware. If the demand is there, they will address it if it can be done. If the demand is large enough, I'm sure it can be done, although I'd guess completely replicating the capabilities of the new app might be considerably pricier than the Universal Remote or cab-1L. There's obviously a market. The question is how large, and whether they have the personnel to address it sooner rather than later is my thought. It's going to be later, for sure .
