Mr. Hot water. I think there were some semantic issues that clouded my initial statement. Handling brass is different than handling diecast. I've run my 3rd Rail Sunset Niagara and it runs fine. I had to return it three times because of paint flaws and once for mechanical reasons. I don't think this is a common situation. I was treated very and 3rd rail apologized. They are great. The tether between the engine and tender has a lot to be desired. The tender axle that has the sensor on it needs to be well lubed to function properly. I used to be a HO freak and was very careful handling my steamers. My 3rd Rail is in a display case because it is just darn beautiful! I run the LIONEL just because of (no real reason). I was not aware of the cherry switch thing, the plastic gear issue, and the driver rims falling off. I purchased it two weeks ago. I just signed up for the OGR Forum last week. I'm a bit scared of all of this. On the other hand, I've disassembled engines before. Maybe this one is okay(I hope). I apologize for my terse retort. We are in this game together.
I like my Niagara. It's a good looking engine and sounds good. I ran it a few times at the SD3R layout with a mixed bag of freight. The only problems I've had with it are: 1) one of the wheel rims would fall off after about 2 hours of run time, and 2) the smoke output was less than originally advertised.
I never got a chance to glue the rim back on because the times it came off when running at the club layout, I would snap it back on, put it back in the plastic tub, and run another engine for the rest of the day. (Remember that we are a museum so we have to have something running during operating hours.) When I got it back home, I would forget what rim came off because I was too stupid to mark the wheel. I guess after the rim cooled down and contracted, it was "on" again.
As far as the smoke goes, I remember the original CC flyer saying "gushing smoke". Well, it wasn't very gushing when I ran it. Then I found out from the Forum that this was one of the Lionel engines that had the smoke unit fan spinning the wrong way. I had reversed the fan on several of my Lionel diesels with excellent results. But I couldn't figure out how to take apart the Niagara. Luckily in 2008, Norm Charbonneau posted instructions and pictures on how to disassemble the Niagara to reverse the smoke fan. Thanks Norm! Unfortunately, that was about the same time that my workload at work increased so I haven't had a chance to redo the smoke unit. But I made a PDF of Norm's instructions for when I finally get around to it. I look forward to running this baby again with milk cars. And I'll remember to mark the wheel this time.
-- Roger --
Originally Posted by CSX Al: Does running speed have an impact on the life of the cherry switch? I run mine between 40-50 scale mph. What, in your opinion, would be the life expectancy of those plastic gears if it is run at moderate speeds,lubed with plastic compatible gear grease, and run pulling about seven cars(four reefers and four heavy weights? I realize this are not easy questions. I'm not trying to put you on the spot---I'd just like your take on these issues. I've taken many engines apart, but viewing your photo, this looks like a real involved project(to say the least--I admire your patience!!).
I bought mine off the web for the cost of a Railking engine. It had a paint problem on a couple of the drivers as Scott mentioned and also the bad chuff switch. The switch is a cheap part ( $2.50) but unless you do your own repairs ( not for the faint at heart, see photo below) the repair will cost a bit. You basically have to strip the engine down to the wheels. Which includes pulling smoke unit, boards, cab and bottom half of boiler. I do love the sound of this engine. You can hear it in my video
Originally Posted by scott.smith:
The paint on the wheels is flawed and they become pitted. The most frustrating thing is the cherry switch for the chuff, I have had to have it replaced several times. This is a difficult engine to take apart and get to the switch.
Brian,
Regarding the running speed and effect on the switch, well I am not sure what the specs are for the number of contacts the switch makes for the life of the switch but it is mechanical so it will eventually fail.
I would say the weak link in the pulling power of the engine is the plastic universal joints. I have one of them crack on a different engine and think they were a poor design choice for Lionel. Should of gone with a metal one instead. I don't think a 7 car train would be a problem though. I hope this answers your questions.
Originally Posted by CSX Al:
I bought mine off the web for the cost of a Railking engine. It had a paint problem on a couple of the drivers as Scott mentioned and also the bad chuff switch. The switch is a cheap part ( $2.50) but unless you do your own repairs ( not for the faint at heart, see photo below) the repair will cost a bit. You basically have to strip the engine down to the wheels. Which includes pulling smoke unit, boards, cab and bottom half of boiler. I do love the sound of this engine. You can hear it in my video
Thank you for your reply. I have a number of Lionel steamers and never had to replace a cherry switch. I agree that anything mechanical has limitations. I used to repair trains at Brasseur Electric Trains located in Saginaw, MI., and don't remember many cherry switch problems. I just wonder if the manufacturer of the switches changed something in components with regard to quality--that sounds pretty far fetched. I stopped repairing other peoples trains because when I got home, I had no interest in my own stuff. Being a retired speech pathologist, I really didn't need the frustration. I presently work part time in sales--very enjoyable. I'll stop boring you with my life history. Your layout looks very impressive. Plastic gears--what were they thinking? Cost cutting? To be blunt, it was just plain dumb. You need not reply to this epistle. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience and also I apologize for my typos in my previous communication with you. Have a great day!
Originally Posted by scott.smith:
The paint on the wheels is flawed and they become pitted. The most frustrating thing is the cherry switch for the chuff, I have had to have it replaced several times. This is a difficult engine to take apart and get to the switch.
Brian, I really liked the look of your layout - CARGILL buildings and all. Feel free to post more of it!
David
I want to line up with Hot Water on the brass vs die-cast fragility thing. The business about fragility of 3rd Rail locos pops up now and again and it is, really, a baseless canard. The "fragility" issue would seem to be about all the delicate brass detail parts-similar to details attached to the better die-cast locos. Of course, you can't make a ham-handed grab for the running boards on a 3rd Rail loco, but surely if you can afford one you can train yourself to use proper technique.
I have several 3rd Rail locos (although not in Hot Water's league) that I routinely transport to AGHR and never have had a problem with delicacy (by the way-the basic brass superstructure is formed from heavy gauge brass and is truly robust).
I do wish the tethers were easier to attach and detach, though...
To prove that 3rd Rail brass was robust, Scott once threw one of his models in the air and caught it during the manufacturer's forum at York. Having worked in N, HO and O, I can say that if one is concerned with detail on a model then you simply have to know how to pick it up properly. Many an HO model of mine has much more detail than many of my O scale trains and it has never been an issue. Granted a ladder came loose from my Williams brass Challenger tender ...... after it dropped 48 inches off my club layout to the floor.
While my Williams brass Niagara is inferior in many ways, it is a great runner and has an excellent mechanism. I'm selling all my NYC electrics, but keeping that locomotive just because I find it to be the most elegant of the NYC steam locomotives.
Originally Posted by Brian Dugan:
. . . I did not mean fragile in the sense of running them. It is just that one does have to be careful about how they are handled.
This is my major concern, too, and why I refer to brass as "delicate." Usually, a good brass loco has gobs of small, very accurately rendered pieces added on and these are fragile/delicate/easy to damage - whatever you want to call it. Some parts of the body are thin and perhaps not that strong - regardless I won't take any chances.
My experience in the smaller scales was also that the paint and primer was often not as thick and hardy as on commercial production locos and easier to scratch/rub off/mar. Brass locos can be robust and durable runners - although many are pretty light (but that can be fixed).
BTW - I considered the MTH European series steamers to be just about as fragile/delicate/easy to damage.
Here is the MTH and Lionel Niagara's side by side.
Scott Smith
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My Century 2 Niagara tender derails in reverse on switches the rear most wheel will go off track. If the tender makes it over the switch the tender will not be tracking straight it will be cocked to one side. If anyone had similar problem please share.
