I STARTED THIS POST & NOW I'M GOING to FINISH IT!! "REPAIRED IT" "GREAT LIONEL SERVICE".....LIONEL ES44AC Legacy Diesel "SMOKE FAN MOTOR" Stopped Working!!

OK, cool. thx G. Good to know.

 

There are a couple of ways to fix this "EMI noise" issue without replacing a good EMI noisy fan motor. A decoupling cap can be added to the 5V rails or a small toroid can be added to the smoke unit power harness with a couple of turns on the toroid. This most likely will fix the problem and the cost in less than a $1.

I can tell you that a .1uf or a 1uf NP cap won't fix the Legacy three blinks.   I tried that recently, just to see if that would change things, no joy.

Oh, I see John.

 

I don't know the legacy circuit but if over current protection is kicking in too soon with a good fan motor, then the cap will not fix it, you are right of course. The circuit may be out of spec or the components tolerances are off and the circuit design has to be looked at.

The Cap did not work on the MTH engine either.  At $6 for a new fan motor, versus damage to the 5V circuit of the PS-2 board, I just install a new fan motor.  G

OK, thx for the tip guys.

 

I DO have a couple of MTH SD70Ace's w/PS2 5V that are erratic and when I am back home I will check for the smoke fan motor as a potential cause. When I am in there, I normally clean up the wiring with zip ties and so on, they always look like spaghetti

I keep MTH fan motors in quantity.  For any issues with MTH stuff, I haven't even bothered trying to fix it, I just replace the motor.  It's significant to note that I've only had a few MTH motors, but I have a pile of about 20 Lionel motors that I've replaced, and I've already tossed some of them. 

 

For the life of me I can't see what's wrong with the Lionel motors, they run quiet, don't draw excessive current, for all common measurements they are just like a new one.  I keep meaning to hook up a 'scope and see if there are excessive noise spikes when they're running, but since the capacitors didn't damp them, I don't expect to see much.

John,

Would you send me a few of the motors that fail to start up and cause the 3 blinks?  I have yet to see one fail in the lab to run some tests to find out why this happens. 

 

The system looks for back-EMF to determine if the motor is running.  If no back-EMF, then it shuts-down, thinking the motor is stalled.  I have motors here that have worked since I designed the electronics, 4 years ago, and my testing indicates a variety of motors work well without failing. 

 

While does not seem to be a high failure item, but is annoying and something is going on, so a few motors may allow me to determine root cause of the issue.

 

Interesting about the back emf sensing. The fan in my new ES44ac would start up (I watched it from the removed battery/control cover). It ran at what looked like full speed for about 1 second and then quit followed by the 3 blinks. After an hour or so of starting it up, having it stop, 3 blinks, reset, kill power, send emails to Grzyboski's and Lionel, try again, it has become reliable. Canceled emails, wiggled the rear coupler and pilot and the 5 second buzzing went away when powering up the track. If I knew the circuit for powering the coupler, I could theorize what wire was pinched or not.

Runs great now. My only remaining thing is the little swinging window falling off the cab area. I'll figure out how to fix that, no real issue.

But I digress, the lack of back emf when the motor was clearly running, or lack of sensing it...is the question. Interesting are the original thoughts that an over sensitive circuit sensing the motor current was the issue, and instead it seems like the problem may be an under sensitive circuit sensing back emf.

Thanks for your input, it's very appreciated.

I'd be glad to Jon, I don't really have any use for them.  I'd love to know why they're getting flagged as failures, several I've tested seem to be perfectly fine.  I'll pack a few up and ship them out.

 

Would you email me an address where you'd like them shipped?

Interesting Jon.  How much back emf is actually generated on a small motor like these which effectively are run no load.  Could it be the sensitivity of the circuitry when it is installed in an engine?  G

This makes sence cause if you unplug a smoke unit it just does the binking 3 lights..

Jon

Thank you for replying to this thread.  I have heard numerous complaints about the 3 blinking lights not only here on the forum, but at my Club.  I just sent my new NS ES44ac Heritage Unit to customer service for this problem and I will be getting back on Monday.  It got the 3 blinking lights right out of the box.  I could hear the motor start-up every time I turned on the engine, but immediately quit resulting in the 3 blinking lights.  It has been frustrating to me and I know for others that we get a new engine and immediately this problem occurs.   Again, I appreciate you taking the time to look into this for all of us. 

Ken

I just got mine back from the service center for the front coupler buzzing (shorted wire) and the Fan Motor (Flashing Cab Light 3 times) However, they could not find anything wrong with the fan motor. I will be picking the engine up on Friday and will try running it again and see what happens.

 

Right now a little skiddish as I have three new ES44AC Engines, PRR 8102 and two 1846's..... and a 1848 Non Powered (it so far has no electrical issues)

My fan motor seems to have benefited from a little "running in". I haven't an answer for why that helps. I wonder how many warranty repairs are solved by running in by the time they get the engine for repair.

Actually we can servo this small motor with the back-EMF produced, although we do not. The BEMF is needed in any motor to operate properly without heating up. 

 

Anything can be happening here, and I will make changes to resolve the problem.  We had two vendors for these fan motors; one vendors motors developed noise and 3 blinks quite often, and we stopped using them.  It may simply be that the supply chain has some of these problematic motors still getting to the consumer. 

 

However, it is possible the problem lies deeper in the hardware or code, and I will take action as needed to improve this problematic area.

 

Hmmm...noise could get better (lower) with running in.

Yes, One possibility are the brushes on the DC fan motor, they can create quite a bit of EMI noise and perhaps, only perhaps after a little running in, they get a little quieter (EMI wise)..

Yes I was thinking that smoothing (wearing) of the brushes. If I get another one like this I'm gonna try the running in again.

Music to our ears, we couldn't ask for more than that.  

 

The motors you'll be getting were very quiet, no real hint of an noise or over-current running that I could detect.

 

Are you saying these little smoke fan motors are Brushless motors? Those are very expensive indeed.

The thought that the fan motors are brushless is totally incorrect, they are standard brush equipped DC motors.  One only has to take one apart to verify that.  As far as my testing of the motors, I tested them with the impeller in a smoke unit, which is their operating environment.

 

I gathered that, thx John, there is no way they were bruchless for around $6

I'll say!   I used a lot of brushless DC motors in the Aerospace industry, and I can assure you that none of them were $6, closer to $60 and more!

Not the price so much, but it seems for these to be brushless, the stator commutator would be inside the case...maybe with nanotechnology, eh?

Where's the brushes ? A lot of micro motors don't have them . Its just metal on copper . Now there of the brush design but no brushes in them . Brushless motors are a total different animal . The windings are on shell and armature has the magnets .

The two small wires are the brushes. they conduct DC to the motor armature shaft.

Brushes are a composite material that rides on the armature . There's none in these motors witch means there's no breaking in the brushes cause there's isn't any.

Is the picture you show of a the Lionel or an MTH fan motor please? and yes, brushes look different but there is still emi generated noise by either brushes or little metal arms acting as brushes.

       
       





That is of a failed Lionel smoke unit motor as I stated in my pervious post there of a brush design there's no so called brushes in them . Not tring to argue but real brushes would change how these motors run.

No problem . No one is arguing here. Thx for the picture, now I know what a Lionel fan motor looks like opened. We are trying to understand the possible causes of the failure mode. It is great that a Lionel person will be looking at this problem and we hope to hear from him soon.

If these had real brushes in them i bet they be alot better.. The way they are i dont understand how smoke fluid would even hurt them .. Regardless your right at least lionel is gonna look into this...

Actually, while what you traditionally call brushes is a graphite composite, there's nothing that says brush material can't be almost anything.

One of many quotes.

Currently most electric motor brushes in use are made of graphite, although in the past they were made of brass or copper.

The function of the "wires" determines their classification as brushes, not the material they're made of.  I wouldn't get hung up on the style of brushes.

 

Exact composition of the brush depends on the application. Graphite/carbon powder is commonly used. Copper is used for better conductance (rare for AC applications and not on automotive fuel pumps which run on carbon commutators). Binders, mostly phenol  or other resins or pitch, are mixed in so the powder holds its shape when compacted. Other additives include metal powders, and solid lubricants like MoS₂, WS₂. Much know-how and research is needed in order to define a brush grade mixture for each application or motor.

Actually those copper strips have a brush material attached.  Same goes for the can motors in the engines, though those are much larger.  When you go to a company like Pittman, they list them as brush motors, not brushless.   G

I've never seen a brushless motor in any model train product.  That's not to say there are none, but they sure aren't common in the contemporary O-scale product lines.

I have used Brushless DC motors/speed controllers in RC cars. They are fantastic and very powerful with hi RPM. They are efficient and have no brushes to maintain, Use less power, they are very expensive BUT they are very Quiet and typically do not generate EMI noise as brushed motors do. Brushless motors are slowly being used in commercial drills/hammer drills and screw driver tools. Again, they are very expensive. For Model trains and especially smoke units, there is really no need for brushless motors since they would be an overkill and very expensive. BUT, a brushed DC motor with a higher number of poles on its armature means a better and smoother running motor. LGB used to use a "seven pole Khuler motor" (SP?) in their steam and Diesel engines and they ran perfect for years...

I have two Legacy engines, (GP35 and DASH-9) both purchased new last month and both smoke units have failed pretty much out of the box.  Get the 3 blinking lights error code.   

 

My question is - does anyone know if Lionel will accept warranty work items at the Lionel booth at York?   If so, should I call for an RMA # before I go?  

 

UPDATE:  Yesterday I sent an email to Mike R at Lionel.   Got an "out of office" reply and was going to call the service center later today.   Looks like Mike forwarded my question about York drop off and I received a reply from Phil at the service center that I CAN drop off my two engines at York and the RA will be issued there.   Also sounds like the service center is still in Canfield, OH.  

 

UPDATE #2:  got another email from Lionel service center with an RA # and instructions on how to pack and mark boxes.  It's the standard boilerplate reply as if one was sending an item to them in Canfield.  

 

Certainly have to applaud Lionel for their customer oriented service!  

 

 

Tnx

Good news if we can drop off at York and get the RA there as my three PRR ES44ACs are running but I do not feel real comfortable about the one with the intermittent 1 Flashing Cab Light, and the others with the 3 Flashing Cab Lights.

Does Lionel bring a truck for transporting displays, etc.? That might work. I think though that they are in the middle of moving and I was thinking I didn't want my engine in that situation if I had to send it in now.

I still have to figure out how to put one of those swinging cab window wings that I found in the box along with the hinge, back in. I think I have to widen the gap on the bottom hinge just a tad to pop it in. I glued the hinge back in without the window, probably a mistake, but I didn't want to take a chance of getting any glue in the hinge area freezing the window. It's really tiny work.

Does your smoke unit reliably fail? Mine started working after a couple dozen tries.

Here is the text of the email I received from Phil this morning:

 

Jim,

 

Mike has asked that I help you with this.

 

Yes, please bring to York, we will make you an RA (Return Authorization) to get them repaired. We will have to bring them back to Ohio and ship them to you once repaired.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Phil Hull

Senior Customer Service Manager

Lionel LLC

6655 Seville Drive

Canfield, OH 44406

(586) 949-4100 ext. 2

(330) 286-4146 fax

talktous@lionel.com

www.lionel.com