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SO....I think I inadvertently discovered something regarding the Powerhouse brick that comes with the GW180 transformer set (6-37947). I assumed that brick was EXACTLY the same as the Powerhouse 180W (6-85226) brick that sells separately (see pic). They look identical, same dimensions, same plugs, same everything...how can they not be the same inside? 

I powered up my both-brand-new TIU & WIU for the first time tonight and plugged the 180W brick from the GW180 directly into the FIXED INPUT 1 of the TIU. Nothing...zero volts on FIXED OUTPUT 1. Track voltage jumps (fastrack switch lanterns flash on) for about 0.5 second, TIU power light never turns on, then track voltage goes to zero (lanterns go out). When track voltage tested, voltmeter spikes to 4-5ish volts, then back to zero. Hitting the red reset button on the PH180 does NOTHING. WIFI unit works fine, except there are zero volts to track. Opened up TIU looking for problems (fuse, loose board, loose nuts) and everything was perfect.

Ran the brick back into the GW180 controller, then controller to TIU, cranked it all the way up and voila, TIU works perfectly...18.5 volts on track. Trains work reliably (DCS and Lionchief). Tried going direct brick-to-TIU again and same thing ending in zero volts. Hmmmmmmm.

Then I noticed something. If I turn the brick on, then plug the molex plug into the GW controller, a relay snaps in the brick and the brick starts humming. Pull the molex plug out, the relay opens and it stops humming. When I plug the brick directly into the TIU, the relay snaps but there is no humming. I made my own molex adapter...but...it continuity tests good...all solder w/ banana plugs.

Is it possible that the GW180 brick has something special in it that it is required to be connected to the GW controller for it to function? All the reading I've done suggests you can plug the "original" PH180 brick directly into the TIU and it should work just fine.

Any Lionel techs here? I'm stumped?

Lionel PH180_LI

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  • Lionel PH180_LI: Lionel 2020 big book (pg 212)
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Since no one has replied, I have some P-180s, but do not have a GW-180 so I can't say for sure? However, I did find this old post from Dale Manquen that I had saved way back when...here it is below:

"January 9, 2012 3:09 PM
Dale Manquen

The Hot is the center pin, and the Common is the bottom. The top pin is only used on the new ZW transformers for jumpering a brick from one channel to the next in line." 

So I don't have your answer, but this got me wondering if they could possibly be using that 'top pin' in the PH-180 connector to do something with the GW-180s? 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

To answer one question, clearly you can plug the standard PH180 into the TIU and it'll supply power.  If that weren't true, it wouldn't be working for me.

Right! I was expecting the same result. That is why I'm surprised...

John, if you get bored, try this. Put a Multimeter in the pin sockets (or wires if you cut it off) of your PH180, turn it on and tell me what VAC you get. I get ZERO volts, like it isn't even working. Connect it through the GW controller, boom, 18.5VAC-ish.

For what it's worth, this is from the manual for the GW-180. Or is this just boilerplate?:

Use the PowerHouse Power Supply for only its intended purpose. The unit was designed to operate with the GW-180 Transformer and select Lionel controllers only.

Here's the manual. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...05737947250GW180.pdf

I think I have one of GW-180s buried in storage. Had to move before I used it, so don't know more.

David

I have a GW180 on my layout which I split the power by cutting the cord and one goes directly to the TIU for command operations and the other goes to the GW.  I then use GW power for accessories and conventional operations.   I have a switch down stream which selects which power to use for that loop.  It works fine and gives me 18 volts to the track for command operations through the TIU.  

Since there is no extra pin, and the PH180 is simply a transformer with an electronic breaker in series with the output, I'm suspecting that there must be some kind of connection issue when plugging into the TIU, etc. It sounded like the breaker saw a surge and tripped.  But you did say that you tried to set the breaker while it was plugged in. Are the embossed part numbers, etc. on the bottom of both PH's the same? Just wondering.

It's odd that it could sense the connection, I can't imagine how they're doing that.

AviatorRuss posted:
John, if you get bored, try this. Put a Multimeter in the pin sockets (or wires if you cut it off) of your PH180, turn it on and tell me what VAC you get. I get ZERO volts, like it isn't even working. Connect it through the GW controller, boom, 18.5VAC-ish.

No need, I've measured the PH180 countless times, there's always around 18VAC at the pins.

George is right, I have seen a post here about Lionel having problems after switching to a different PH-180 manufacturer. Probably time to call Lionel.

Edit: I see cjack suggested a possible connection problem. Before calling Lionel, having made your own cable (PH-180 to TIU), I would take a closer look at it to be sure it isn't causing problems. The connections/cable sounds like the only difference in the mix here. I have had an odd thing or two happen around here before, stuff I just stumbled across but would never have suspected? 

Last edited by rtr12
@NS1975 posted:

I just spent the day setting up my TIU and I tried using the GW-180 brick without the controller and plug it into the TIU using the adapter and same results as the original post. Very frustrated at this point. I assumed it would be fine but not the case.

You are saying you have the Lionel GW 180 set up and it works when plugged into the controller correct?

And when you use your home made cable to plug it into the TIU it doesn't?

@BobbyD posted:

You are saying you have the Lionel GW 180 set up and it works when plugged into the controller correct?

And when you use your home made cable to plug it into the TIU it doesn't?

Yes, I have an after market adapter and the lights on my switches go out in less than a second when I turn on the powerhouse brick to connect to the TIU. It has always worked fine with the controller.

Hey guys...can you add more 180 powerhouses to the LIONEL 180 WATT 2 PIECE TRANSFORMER wire power pack supply track GW-180 6-37947.  For example have 2 connected in a row as to create 360 watts . Or even more. I am finally upgrading my layout and trying to decide on a power supply. I was originally thinking a ZW275 that has been rebuilt . I only run 3 Lionchief Plus engines. I have a separate LW125 for accessories. I have about 200 ft of track . I can't afford a ZW-L ...lol

K.K.,

In a word: "No".  The GW-180 will not accept more than one PH-180 brick.

An earlier alternative, not as expensive as the ZW-L, was the ZW-C.  You can still find these in LN or NOS condition.  All but the earliest versions of the ZW-C could accept up to four PH-180 bricks. The earliest used PH-135's instead.

There are two challenges with ZW-C's however:

1.) Mechanicals on Throttle Levers -- Gearing and mounting hardware are frequently flaky.  You can find an upgrade kit here:  ZW Bracket and Axle Bearing

2.) Software -- Most ZW-C's have a software bug that results in flaky operation with Legacy stuff.  If you use Legacy command control you'll need to find a ZW-C with updated software inside, in the form of a new chip.

Bad chip:

Good chip:

Follow this link for details: ZW-C Firmware Upgrade Issue for Legacy | cjack

Good luck.

Mike

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Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

So I can buy  ZW 275 (C) and add 180 PH bricks later . When you say "all but the earliest versions" Mike are you  referring to the (a) and (b) versions ? Or is there a year or model change that happened ?. I have researched them the best I could, but some questions require professional assistance .Thanks Mike. I appreciate your help.

Here are the three versions that have been made:

  6-14124     ZW-C Controller with Two 135 Watt Powerhouses
  6-22982     Postwar Celebration Series ZW-C with Two 135 Watt Powerhouses
  6-32930     ZW-C and Powerhouse PH-180 Power Supply Set

This is the way I understand it:  The first two (6-14124 and 6-22982) each came with two PH-135's, and two more can be added to each.

The last one (6-32930) came with two PH-180's, and two more can be added, or you can add two PH-135's if you happen to have them.

Hope that helps.

Mike

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Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

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