Lionel GW-180 vs Powerhouse 180...not the same brick?

Anyone...Anyone??? I can't possibly be the ONLY person to experience this?

Since no one has replied, I have some P-180s, but do not have a GW-180 so I can't say for sure? However, I did find this old post from Dale Manquen that I had saved way back when...here it is below:

"January 9, 2012 3:09 PM
Dale Manquen

The Hot is the center pin, and the Common is the bottom. The top pin is only used on the new ZW transformers for jumpering a brick from one channel to the next in line." 

So I don't have your answer, but this got me wondering if they could possibly be using that 'top pin' in the PH-180 connector to do something with the GW-180s? 

I don't have an answer either but I'm interested.  I always have my eye out for PH180's.  I assumed that if I ran across a good deal on a GW180, I could buy it and use that brick with my TIU.  Sounds like that might not work.

Well, Aviatoruss, is there a top pin in the the connector of the GW180?

To answer one question, clearly you can plug the standard PH180 into the TIU and it'll supply power.  If that weren't true, it wouldn't be working for me.

cjack posted:

Well, Aviatoruss, is there a top pin in the the connector of the GW180?

 

There is NOT a pin in the top of the molex connector. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

To answer one question, clearly you can plug the standard PH180 into the TIU and it'll supply power.  If that weren't true, it wouldn't be working for me.

Right! I was expecting the same result. That is why I'm surprised...

John, if you get bored, try this. Put a Multimeter in the pin sockets (or wires if you cut it off) of your PH180, turn it on and tell me what VAC you get. I get ZERO volts, like it isn't even working. Connect it through the GW controller, boom, 18.5VAC-ish.

For what it's worth, this is from the manual for the GW-180. Or is this just boilerplate?:

Use the PowerHouse Power Supply for only its intended purpose. The unit was designed to operate with the GW-180 Transformer and select Lionel controllers only.

Here's the manual. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...05737947250GW180.pdf

I think I have one of GW-180s buried in storage. Had to move before I used it, so don't know more.

David

I have a GW180 on my layout which I split the power by cutting the cord and one goes directly to the TIU for command operations and the other goes to the GW.  I then use GW power for accessories and conventional operations.   I have a switch down stream which selects which power to use for that loop.  It works fine and gives me 18 volts to the track for command operations through the TIU.  

Since there is no extra pin, and the PH180 is simply a transformer with an electronic breaker in series with the output, I'm suspecting that there must be some kind of connection issue when plugging into the TIU, etc. It sounded like the breaker saw a surge and tripped.  But you did say that you tried to set the breaker while it was plugged in. Are the embossed part numbers, etc. on the bottom of both PH's the same? Just wondering.

It's odd that it could sense the connection, I can't imagine how they're doing that.

AviatorRuss posted:

John, if you get bored, try this. Put a Multimeter in the pin sockets (or wires if you cut it off) of your PH180, turn it on and tell me what VAC you get. I get ZERO volts, like it isn't even working. Connect it through the GW controller, boom, 18.5VAC-ish.

No need, I've measured the PH180 countless times, there's always around 18VAC at the pins.

Try flipping the GW powerhouse switch on and off (up to 5 times) when it's connected to the TIU. Someone posted about a problem with these. If it eventually turns on, it needs to go back to Lionel for repair or replacement.

George

FWIW - I have been using the 180 that came with my GW set for years and never had a problem when it was plugged into the TIU on Fixed Output 1.

Also it's the only power supply on my layout.

With only two wires, I'd be very amazed if this is any different than the separate sale PH180.  Lionel would have no reason to made a special transformer for this task.  I've only seen the GW-180 a couple of times, never saw any reason for it.

i have 4 units.   two came as part of a G180 and two i bought individually.   They all work perfect without the G180 controller.

DICK

George is right, I have seen a post here about Lionel having problems after switching to a different PH-180 manufacturer. Probably time to call Lionel.

Edit: I see cjack suggested a possible connection problem. Before calling Lionel, having made your own cable (PH-180 to TIU), I would take a closer look at it to be sure it isn't causing problems. The connections/cable sounds like the only difference in the mix here. I have had an odd thing or two happen around here before, stuff I just stumbled across but would never have suspected? 

Just to add to the noise

I have 3 PH180 . One of them from the GW80 that powers my TIU with zero issues.  I made my own Molex plug adapter.I have not experienced the issue the OP is having.

I just spent the day setting up my TIU and I tried using the GW-180 brick without the controller and plug it into the TIU using the adapter and same results as the original post. Very frustrated at this point. I assumed it would be fine but not the case.

See this post (and thread) for a possible solution. If you have a newer GW-180, this could be the problem.

@NS1975 posted:

I just spent the day setting up my TIU and I tried using the GW-180 brick without the controller and plug it into the TIU using the adapter and same results as the original post. Very frustrated at this point. I assumed it would be fine but not the case.

You are saying you have the Lionel GW 180 set up and it works when plugged into the controller correct?

And when you use your home made cable to plug it into the TIU it doesn't?

Phasing? That'll drop one out fast.

@BobbyD posted:

You are saying you have the Lionel GW 180 set up and it works when plugged into the controller correct?

And when you use your home made cable to plug it into the TIU it doesn't?

Yes, I have an after market adapter and the lights on my switches go out in less than a second when I turn on the powerhouse brick to connect to the TIU. It has always worked fine with the controller.

@rtr12 posted:

See this post (and thread) for a possible solution. If you have a newer GW-180, this could be the problem.

Thanks, I think this is my problem 👍 I'll give it a try.

@rtr12 posted:

See this post (and thread) for a possible solution. If you have a newer GW-180, this could be the problem.

As l was reading through the posts here I had the same thought but didn't remember where I saw this.

Ray

@NS1975 posted:

Yes, I have an after market adapter and the lights on my switches go out in less than a second when I turn on the powerhouse brick to connect to the TIU. It has always worked fine with the controller.

So the adapter wiring is the issue? 

@BobbyD posted:

So the adapter wiring is the issue? 

No, as linked here

@rtr12 posted:

See this post (and thread) for a possible solution. If you have a newer GW-180, this could be the problem.

it appears that these bricks do not output power unless the a safety on the third pin is engaged.

@bmoran4 posted:

No, as linked here

it appears that these bricks do not output power unless the a safety on the third pin is engaged.

I tried using the electrical tape in the third pin hole and it works now.

I looked in the box the set came in and there was no extra pin included. I looked on Lionel's parts store and the pin is unavailable, that is why I used the electrical tape hack.

So to be clear, the connector on the new GW-180 brick has a spring loaded switch in the third (formerly unused) hole. And shoving something in that hole, closes some circuit? And allows the 18 vdc to be present on the other two pins?

cjack,

Yes, that's it.  I don't have one of these PH-180s, but that is what Dave Olson says in the post I linked above. 

If you have one of these and do not have the pin, Dave says to contact Lionel Customer Service and they will send you one. 

@cjack posted:

So to be clear, the connector on the new GW-180 brick has a spring loaded switch in the third (formerly unused) hole. And shoving something in that hole, closes some circuit? And allows the 18 vdc to be present on the other two pins?

Yes

Hey guys...can you add more 180 powerhouses to the LIONEL 180 WATT 2 PIECE TRANSFORMER wire power pack supply track GW-180 6-37947.  For example have 2 connected in a row as to create 360 watts . Or even more. I am finally upgrading my layout and trying to decide on a power supply. I was originally thinking a ZW275 that has been rebuilt . I only run 3 Lionchief Plus engines. I have a separate LW125 for accessories. I have about 200 ft of track . I can't afford a ZW-L ...lol

K.K.,

In a word: "No".  The GW-180 will not accept more than one PH-180 brick.

An earlier alternative, not as expensive as the ZW-L, was the ZW-C.  You can still find these in LN or NOS condition.  All but the earliest versions of the ZW-C could accept up to four PH-180 bricks. The earliest used PH-135's instead.

There are two challenges with ZW-C's however:

1.) Mechanicals on Throttle Levers -- Gearing and mounting hardware are frequently flaky.  You can find an upgrade kit here:  ZW Bracket and Axle Bearing

2.) Software -- Most ZW-C's have a software bug that results in flaky operation with Legacy stuff.  If you use Legacy command control you'll need to find a ZW-C with updated software inside, in the form of a new chip.

Bad chip:

Good chip:

Follow this link for details: ZW-C Firmware Upgrade Issue for Legacy | cjack

Good luck.

Mike

So I can buy  ZW 275 (C) and add 180 PH bricks later . When you say "all but the earliest versions" Mike are you  referring to the (a) and (b) versions ? Or is there a year or model change that happened ?. I have researched them the best I could, but some questions require professional assistance .Thanks Mike. I appreciate your help.

Here are the three versions that have been made:

  6-14124     ZW-C Controller with Two 135 Watt Powerhouses
  6-22982     Postwar Celebration Series ZW-C with Two 135 Watt Powerhouses
  6-32930     ZW-C and Powerhouse PH-180 Power Supply Set

This is the way I understand it:  The first two (6-14124 and 6-22982) each came with two PH-135's, and two more can be added to each.

The last one (6-32930) came with two PH-180's, and two more can be added, or you can add two PH-135's if you happen to have them.

Hope that helps.

Mike