Lionel Hiawatha 6-29191 Cars Please Help

Trucks are OK but the color match is way off. They are very nice cars though.

Pete

Thanks Pete!  I knew there is at least one color match problem because trucks on the Loco/Tender are black instead of red  like the cars, which I believe is correct.  Most photos of Prototype are black and white so I understand the confusion.  Any idea on value?

Not sure about current value. I was able to find the 6 cars for about 100 bucks a car. The SS diner was more but under 200 bucks. I have had them awhile.

MTH cars match the color better as do the Weavers as you would expect. I have a set of the MTH heavyweights too.

Pete

Thanks for the information on price.  Up to this point I have only bought K-Line passenger cars because I love the fact they have interiors.  The Weaver cars that "match" the Loco have tinted window strips but no interior, also think they are 21" cars which would be more prototypical but 18" cars work better for me.  Are there interiors available that fit the Weaver cars?  As I said I am new to O Gauge.  BTW love the video, for some reason it didn't show up when I looked at your first post.  What is the Loco you are using?

The Weavers are all 21". They were offered with and without interiors. I have set with interiors. MTH has many many variations. Different eras, smooth and fluted streamliners plus the heavyweights.

Pete

Thanks for all your help and information, plus the photos!  Have a good night!

FYI, I am not particularly knowledgeable about Milwaukee Rd. I am attracted to certain passenger trains by their colors. Many here can tell you better what cars your engine would have pulled.

Pete

First of all , get over the paint not matching, both are close enough!  The Shrouded Atlantic's were built by Alco (on a 1934 design) , and the Lionel set of cars, are the from the 1939 Hiawatha Design train.  they are fine together .  Back in the day , the Paint  was sourced from companies in Milwaukee and Chicago and delivered in 55 Gal. barrels and was matched using the Ral system and the human eye, so slight variations did happen.   I have 2 of the Weaver  Atlantic's , one Overland Atlantic, and a Weaver Shrouded F7 4-6-4. a as well as the  Hiawatha cars ( all Weaver ) .  I didnt like the (out of proportions ) details on the Lionel models.  And for further information , The cars all had  Brown Trucks. the  4-4-2 had brown trucks and  drivers, the 4-6-4's  had grey drivers and brown trucks as they entered into Hiawatha  service. at least up until well into the 40's

There's a set of 5 Weaver morning Hiawatha cars on eBay right now.

Thank you Pete, Dave and Doug.  As mentioned I am pretty new to O gauge.  Have been in HO most my life.  Once I bought the Hiawatha Hudson decided I needed a train for it to pull.  The only O gauge passenger cars I have bought so far have been K-line, I love the way they look!  I realize they are not prototypical in many respects, Flat main floor Domes with no stairs, etc.  I actually have a set of the 15" (not prototypical) Orange and Maroon Hiawatha cars, wanted longer cars hard to find and the price had factored in.  The Skytop interior though is set-up more like an Olympian Creek car than a Rapids parlor car, I am going to fix that.  However these look ridiculous behind the Scale Hudson.  First thought, find and buy a 18 or 21" Set.  Anyhow thought these 1948 cars were NEVER pulled by Steam.  So decided that I need a 1939 train to go with Hudson and landed on the Lionel Set since they have interiors.  Between signing off here last night and getting back on tonight started paging through Scribbins Hiawatha story and Low and Behold on page 107 F-7 101 pulling 1948 cars in 1950!  So guess I am back to that plan.  Anyhow thanks to all you opening up my eyes to the variety of O gauge cars out there.  It is some what overwhelming to someone just entering the hobby!  BTW the Weaver 1935 Set on Ebay was snapped-up by someone else.  If they were still available probably would have changed directions again.  They look beautiful and have interiors.

Chronologically, those of the type shown in the second photo from Pete are of the initial Hiawatha consist.  The smooth sided cars of the 4400 series had narrow vestibules and arched windows.  The pair of rear windows on the beaver tail observation parrot those found on a 1936 Cord sedan.  I believe only Weaver and Overland made miniatures of them in O.

the ribbed types came next, debuting with introduction of the F7.  Kuhler, in a deco art wet dream added the streamlined fins so iconic to the Hi beaver tail.  Great efforts were made by the Milkwaukee shops to lighten and streamline these cars. Along with full vestibules the cars mechanicals beneath were grouped and shielded so as to slip through the wind easier.  The resulting look of the profile always appears too high, especially compared to skirted cars.  Sometime during the war they actually added skirts, a consist that I believe has never been done in O.

The truck and undercarriage on the Lionel cars really comes closer to the maroon used elsewhere and not the brown known to be correct.  Get out The dullcoat if the gloss used by Lionel ain't your thing.  My complete Lionel Hi remains as is and it suits me fine.  Given the color match and gloss factor of Weaver, not to mention the price difference, it may save grief by sticking to one maker.  My Weaver F7 and cars may receive a details upgrade whenever I can find half a year to spare ;-)

Bruce

BTW forgot to mention that on Ebay saw a set of Weaver 1939 cars with a Hudson.  But that Hudson is different, more correct and detailed one then the one I bought.  I am attaching a picture of mine which is good enough for me.  I really am not planning on spending $2500 for just this one train.  As is I spent more on this Locomotive than anything else so far.  Of course that may change.  LOL

its addictive

Hi Bruce got diverted away and just saw your reply.  Thank you for explaining the truck and under carriage color.  As I mentioned previously most photos are black and white so hard to tell.  Also the color photos I see on the internet are all aver the place color wise.  I know that the old color film was not all that accurate, looking back at childhood pictures and old slides.  And yes I definitely agree the cars look like the are sitting up to high.  The prototypes did also, it just isn't a "3Rail problem".

Simply answer, your Weaver F7 Hudson and Lionel’s 29191, 29196 and 29199 series of releases (making a seven-car consist) of ribbed, streamlined cars are a prototypical match. Plan on spending $1,000 combined for those cars today. I’m happy with the matching Lionel Class A Atlantic that was released in conjunction with those cars in 2006.

Here’s one of my videos with that consist.

@MainLine Steam posted:

New to the hobby and trying to find information on this set.  I recently bought a Weaver Hiawatha Hudson QC-1080LP.  Did some internet searching and decided this would be the perfect train to pull behind it.  I know some Lionel passenger cars had rotting trucks, anyone know about this set?  What should be a fair price for this set?  Anyone know what it sold for new?  Anyone want to sell one?  Can anyone please help?  Thank you!

Just sent you an email

@Jim R. posted:

Simply answer, your Weaver F7 Hudson and Lionel’s 29191, 29196 and 29199 series of releases (making a seven-car consist) of ribbed, streamlined cars are a prototypical match. Plan on spending $1,000 combined for those cars today. I’m happy with the matching Lionel Class A Atlantic that was released in conjunction with those cars in 2006.

Here’s one of my videos with that consist.

nice looking HI

You will find that there are Plus and minuses , to every manufacture's  variation of the Hiawatha .  Some are true scale models and some toys. I have been modeled the MR  for 50 plus years and there is a huge amount of research out there. The MR's archive was mostly Given to the Milwaukee and I believe is managed by the   

Milwaukee Road Historical Association, .

Actually the MR archives says all at the Milwaukee Public Museum.  They have 60,000 drawings I believe plus many other items.   I've found Jim Scribbins Hiawatha book to be invaluable in understanding how the various car and locomotive combinations progressed over the years.  It's a great book and well worth finding.

I own that set, along with several other Hiawatha sets.  Multiple Milwaukee Road steamers (MTH, Lionel, Weaver) and F3s.  After seeing the posts here, I checked the trucks on the 29191 cars for zinc pest - none on mine, but maybe I've just been lucky. 

Agree with the post regarding price - $1000 for the cars sounds about right - maybe just a trifle high.  A complete set, with loco, is probably in the $1400-1800 range, but who knows these days. 

The biggest issue with mixing and matching cars and engines is that none of the manufacturers seem to agree on the shade of orange - they're all different.

Thanks Dave, Doug, Bryant and Jim for your insights!

Jim I love your thumbnail, it is not lost on me that when taken you were sitting on former Milw RR property or darn close to it!  Thank you also for the value estimate and the fact it is a 7 car set with the add-ons.  This set and add thing, is very different than buying HO equipment.

My profile shows NY but lived in WI until just a few years ago.  Grew-up 2 blocks from Milw tracks (now a bike path).

I agree that the Scribbins book is great.  Probably missed it, my posts have been long, but found a picture on page 107 of a F-7 Hudson pulling the 1948 Cars.

Have a good weekend guys!

If you look at photos long enough you'll see about everything.  The early Hiawatha cars wound up on the run from Chicago to Sioux City and we're pulled by lots of different locos. 

Thanks Mallard for the information, and especially taking the time to check the condition of the trucks!

Doug were you based out of La Grange, or how did that work?  I know it is off subject, but just curious.  If I have a question like this is there some other way I should ask you?  Don't want to break forum rules.  Please let me know.  Thank you!

Nah it's a mild thread hijacking.  I was 100% in the field.  Corbin, KY, Clifton Forge, Cumberland, Belen, and some rides out of Chicago on BN.  Spent 2 years in Morocco delivering switchers and their version of an SD40-2.  All the US stuff was 50 series deliveries and trouble shooting.  Had a riding pass on each railroad, it was a railfans dream.  :-)

Railfans dream for sure.  I too am an Engineer, but always have to qualify that around train people when they get starry eyed.  I say not the kind of Engineer that gets to drive trains, the boring kind that designs stuff.  I use to spend time in Paper Mills, directing work crews and trouble shooting and commissioning equipment.  Your job were have been a heck of a lot more fun!  Thanks for the reply!

Jim Scribbins’ book is called “The Hiawatha Story,” originally published by Kalmbach in the early 1970s. It’s my primary resource on the history of the Milwaukee Road’s Hiawatha service beginning in May 1935.

There have been no zinc pest issues of Lionel’s Hiawatha cars.

@Mallard4468 posted:

I own that set, along with several other Hiawatha sets.  Multiple Milwaukee Road steamers (MTH, Lionel, Weaver) and F3s.  After seeing the posts here, I checked the trucks on the 29191 cars for zinc pest - none on mine, but maybe I've just been lucky.

Agree with the post regarding price - $1000 for the cars sounds about right - maybe just a trifle high.  A complete set, with loco, is probably in the $1400-1800 range, but who knows these days.

The biggest issue with mixing and matching cars and engines is that none of the manufacturers seem to agree on the shade of orange - they're all different.

The shade of red is also different on the MTH Hudson and Lionel ribbed passenger cars but close enough that it's not a big distraction.

@MainLine Steam posted:

New to the hobby and trying to find information on this set.  I recently bought a Weaver Hiawatha Hudson QC-1080LP.  Did some internet searching and decided this would be the perfect train to pull behind it.  I know some Lionel passenger cars had rotting trucks, anyone know about this set?  What should be a fair price for this set?  Anyone know what it sold for new?  Anyone want to sell one?  Can anyone please help?  Thank you!

While color is always important. It is also important to realize color seldom matched on any cars not in a constant consist. Shops all over a railroad system used paints that came close. A good example of this is Brunswick-green. A very hard color and most people have no idea that the "official Penn Central color" was Brunswick-green. There are pages of the debates on this color and proper mixing. The NYC shops painted with black "this was the paint they had". The Pennsy shops used what they had, in the end they all looked black as the paint aged. If you like the color than its a match. In G scale we say "if it looks good at 4 feet, than its good".