Lionel Hudson Engines - large or small?

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

Pete

Familiarity (NYC Hudsons are my favorite loco, only challenged by the NYC Niagara, occasionally). Price. Era (except for the 700E and its decendants - 773, 785, 783, re-issued 700E - all PW Hudsons are small, with either no prototype or a Santa fe prototype: 2055, etc.)

All Lionel Dreyfuss and ESE Hudsons are scale - but note the little PW 221 Dreyfuss "Hudson" (it's a 2-6-4; cute as a button). Anything listed as "J3" or "J3a" is 1:48 - except the Lionmaster J3a. The Commodore Vanderbilt is 1:48; the 1990's 5344 J1e with the incorrect Vanderbilt (ironically) tender is 1:48.

Is there a book? I'd like one, too.

Lionel website - look up Hudson, including archived items.

Looks - pretty much, if it isn't 1:48, it will look it - the Lionmaster J3a being an exception, pretty much.

Price.

Curve requirements - if it's under 054, it's sub-1:48, pretty dependably. 

Thanks for that information!

Lionel made many Hudson locomotives.  Then they made the best one ever.  The Vision line Hudson.

What is a PW Hudson?

Postwar.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Lionel made many Hudson locomotives.  Then they made the best one ever.  The Vision line Hudson.

Agreed Marty,

When you came out to Lionel Ohio last time I was demonstrating a VL Hudson to a friend who was a 2 rail scale guy.  He sold his 2 rail stuff and now everything is Legacy.  Impressive piece for sure.

A story to go with the first Lionel Ohio open house.  Mike calls and says what he is going to do with the open house.  Thinks about 100 people will show.  I said you're underestimating this open house.  How about I sleep over at your house and we get an early (6am) start.  Final head count was over 400.  Those were fun times.

Lou N

From purely a size perspective and without getting into the streamlined versions, I'd say there are at least 4 categories of Hudsons produced by Lionel. Others can chime in, but here's the 4 I've come up with:

1. Scale Sized - these include pre-war, post-war, and modern versions. As someone pointed out above, some might not be considered true scale models due to lack of detail, but there's a large group of from the various eras.

2. Lionmaster - New in the modern era. Not-to-scale, but more detailed than categories below. Might've only been a few offerings in this class in the 2000s (I love mine).

3. Baby Hudsons - This name, I think, was assigned to the ones like the 2046 and 2056 in the postwar period and some similar models, I think the 2065, etc.  The O27 semi-scale Hudsons made by Williams and Williams by Bachmann in the modern era are similar in size.

4. Junior Hudsons - These are even smaller than the Baby Hudsons and were made in the modern era. You can find some of these on the Lionel website. 

raising4daughters posted:

From purely a size perspective and without getting into the streamlined versions, I'd say there are at least 4 categories of Hudsons produced by Lionel. Others can chime in, but here's the 4 I've come up with:

1. Scale Sized - these include pre-war, post-war, and modern versions. As someone pointed out above, some might not be considered true scale models due to lack of detail, but there's a large group of from the various eras.

2. Lionmaster - New in the modern era. Not-to-scale, but more detailed than categories below. Might've only been a few offerings in this class in the 2000s (I love mine).

3. Baby Hudsons - This name, I think, was assigned to the ones like the 2046 and 2056 in the postwar period and some similar models, I think the 2065, etc.  The O27 semi-scale Hudsons made by Williams and Williams by Bachmann in the modern era are similar in size.

4. Junior Hudsons - These are even smaller than the Baby Hudsons and were made in the modern era. You can find some of these on the Lionel website. 

 

 

Add one more:

5. The pre-war almost a Hudson (2-6-4) 226E.  This became the post war Berkshire casting.

Lou N

Lou N posted: 

Add one more:

5. The pre-war almost a Hudson (2-6-4) 226E.  This became the post war Berkshire casting.

Lou N

Thanks. I figured there'd be more. That's why I hedged with "at least 4"

A lot of Lionel pre war stuff, like the 671 and 2020 turbine locomotives were actually built to 3/16th of an inch to the foot but run on O gauge track.  Selective compression at its best.

TM Books & Video made a very wonderfully detailed video encompassing both the scale and semi scale Hudsons - all the large ones really - made from 1937 to 2003 in very scrutinizing specifics.

It doesn't include all the junior Hudsons (doing that would require a two or three hour video for themselves alone likely), but I would recommend it for any Lionel Hudson fan.

Thank you!

I wonder where the Lionchief Plus Hudsons fall? I have heard the post war semi-scale Hudsons called Santa Fe Hundsons.

Norton posted:

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Let's cut this notion that semi-scale describes scale-proportioned models with fewer details. When manufacturers use the term, it is only to describe undersized models.

Some hobbyists wrongly adapted the term to bring details into the picture. Which is ridiculous, because, tell me, when is the threshold crossed for the amount of detail? It only causes confusion.

This is the Scale-sized list that I have compiled.

No Lionmaster, Baby or Junior Hudsons here.

Photo of the command ready/equipped Lionel Hudsons that were introduced around 1999, and also a Hudson Junior on the center shelf. Quite a noticeable size difference.

Is the 18043 C&O Hudson also scale?

The C&O Yellow Belly streamlined Hudson is what is referred to as semi-scale.  It's the right length, right driver diameter and even comes with a pony truck with scale wheels for display purposes.  I bought mine new in 1996 and after a year of running, the sound card self destructed.

Allin posted:

I wonder where the Lionchief Plus Hudsons fall? I have heard the post war semi-scale Hudsons called Santa Fe Hudsons.

The Lion Chief Plus line has one Hudson, and one Pacific that should be a Hudson. Both are based on postwar engines. Neither is scale.

The Hudson is based on the 646 / 2046, which has a vaguely NYC outline. It shared its boiler casting with the 736 Berkshire, which was in turn derived from the prewar 226E "almost Hudson," 2-6-4. This boiler is the basis for the command-equipped Hudsons on the top and bottom shelves in the picture posted above by Ed H., and for the new Lion Chief Plus Berkshires also.

The "Pacific" is based on the 665 / 2055. This was the Santa Fe Hudson, and it is very obviously modeled after the AT&SF 3460 class Hudsons. The model is just a bit smaller than the 646 NYC type. The Santa Fe Hudson is easily identified by the long, pointed pilot, and the vertical air compressor shroud on only one side of the pilot beam.

Irritatingly, Lionel chose  the NYC casting for its "Santa Fe" Lion Chief engine (twice! a Hudson and a now a Berk, too), while using the Santa Fe Hudson tooling for any and every road except the Santa Fe.

Thank you! That is irritating.

Jim R. posted:

Norton posted:

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Let's cut this notion that semi-scale describes scale-proportioned models with fewer details. When manufacturers use the term, it is only to describe undersized models.

Some hobbyists wrongly adapted the term to bring details into the picture. Which is ridiculous, because, tell me, when is the threshold crossed for the amount of detail? It only causes confusion.

nickaix posted:

Irritatingly, Lionel chose  the NYC casting for its "Santa Fe" Lion Chief engine (twice! a Hudson and a now a Berk, too), while using the Santa Fe Hudson tooling for any and every road except the Santa Fe.

They are just continuing the Post War tradition where K5s and Turbines got NYC style tenders and the 2046 and 736s got Pennsy style tenders. 

Pete

D500 posted:

NYC Hudsons are my favorite loco, only challenged by the NYC Niagara, occasionally.

Is there a book? I'd like one, too.

 

I made a book on NYC Hudsons in 0 gauge and other gauges; it can be looked into at my website: 

http://sncf231e.nl/lner-pacifics-and-nyc-hudsonsv2/

Regards

Fred

Fred,

That is a great resource with superb photography. Thank you for posting. 

Jim

Jim R. posted:

Norton posted:

I believe most of the ones you listed are scale size. The 763, 773, 783, 784, 785 are the same size but lack detail of the others. Semi scale is a term used to described smaller than scale items as well as scale size but lacking detail.

 

Pete

Let's cut this notion that semi-scale describes scale-proportioned models with fewer details. When manufacturers use the term, it is only to describe undersized models.

Some hobbyists wrongly adapted the term to bring details into the picture. Which is ridiculous, because, tell me, when is the threshold crossed for the amount of detail? It only causes confusion.

If  the term "scale" only refers to size, then how do we differentiate between fully detailed models such as the 18005 and same size models lacking the full details such as the 18002?

Scale is a dimensional element. 1:48 scale. Pretty simple. 

Why i call them O-gauge, as in the track they run on, given all the different scales and detail levels used.

My first Hudson was the O27 passenger set in the 1980's from the sears catalog. I think it was #8606. I have some of the 1990's Hudsons, but always in the market for more(naturally).

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

My first Hudson was the O27 passenger set in the 1980's from the sears catalog. I think it was #8606. I have some of the 1990's Hudsons, but always in the market for more(naturally).

Not a Hudson. The NYC 8606 (Lionel 6-18606) was a 2-6-4, which was used in Sears sets during the late 1980s. I have the 8607 -- same loco, only in U.P. Overland paint scheme.

Jim R. posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

My first Hudson was the O27 passenger set in the 1980's from the sears catalog. I think it was #8606. I have some of the 1990's Hudsons, but always in the market for more(naturally).

Not a Hudson. The NYC 8606 (Lionel 6-18606) was a 2-6-4, which was used in Sears sets during the late 1980s. I have the 8607 -- same loco, only in U.P. Overland paint scheme.

I actually had to go look. It has been so long since I have had that set out I forgot what it was. Pacific's hiding in plain sight, lol. My first Hudson then is the 763E J1-E in the 1997 Catalog with the Vanderbilt Tender. I actually have to swap out the regular wheels on the engine for the traction tire one. I wonder what the difference in pulling power would be with those on?

Tinplate Tom posted:

A lot of Lionel pre war stuff, like the 671 and 2020 turbine locomotives were actually built to 3/16th of an inch to the foot but run on O gauge track.  Selective compression at its best.

While maybe selective compression at it's best, (and Lionel continues to be the master of it) the 671 and 2020's aren't 3/16ths scale.  Not a single one has ever been converted to S scale because they're way to big.

Selective compression has no "scale" as such, because  different ratio's are used for length, width and height.

Rusty