Lionel Legacy 0-6-0

Have you removed the shell for an inspection?…check all the motor mount screws,……both the mount to the chassis, & the motor to the mount……you’re gonna have to take a look around inside….

Pat

I have three of these engines, one Strasburg  and 2 Pennsylvania. All 3 had problems right out of the box. The Strasburg smoke box front was hanging off the front loosely, but I was able to fix it by making a special tool to tighten the inaccessible screw under the boiler bottom. One had the swinging bell not working. The other would race ahead at full speed for no apparent reason for about 10 feet and then stop dead. I sent the 2 Pennsylvanias to Lionel after calling them and getting a return authorization. The gave me 2 prepaid shipping labels and I sent them in. Each took about 6 weeks to get them back. Now they all run fine.  That connector between the tender and engine has to be solidly in place or the engine will just stop suddenly on curves occasionally. They are beautiful engines and I have not had any issues since.  They all run very quiet with the sound off.

Mine was a little bit noisy. Not as bad as yours. It has quieted down with some break in time.  Lube in the gearbox is a must. I haven't seen a Lionel engine with enough factory lube in years. The 0-6-0 is no exception.

Part of the issue is that these are geared for switching. Which they do as good, or better than any Lionel switcher ever offered.

Things really have to get turning in order to run at road speeds which exacerbates the noise problem. The faster the gears turn, the more noise they will make.

These appear to have a higher quality gearbox, with a worm that turns in ball bearings.  That can make for tighter tolerances though, and vibrations will be transferred from the gearbox to the shell.

I recall a few posts regarding a shuddering issue with the unstreamlined J3as a few years ago. The  general consensus then was just give it some break in running.

Trainworld has demo video of every paint scheme these were offered in on youtube. Each one make some level of gear noise, some are worse than others.

Having said all that. If your not happy, contact Lionel regarding warranty repair. You have plenty of time.

@harmonyards posted:

Have you removed the shell for an inspection?…check all the motor mount screws,……both the mount to the chassis, & the motor to the mount……you’re gonna have to take a look around inside….

Pat

Pat,

I'm with you on this.  I would not operate it any further until it was opened for inspection and fix whatever is wrong.  Running it as is, I think, would be a bad idea.  Most likely leading to damaging something beyond what may currently be easily repairable.  If the owner is not comfortable with that, I would suggest returning it for repair.

I did have a very similar new engine with the same problem, making the same type of sound.  I found the bracket holding whistle steam smoke unit was bent hitting the drive shaft.  Correcting the bracket also corrected the position of the whistle steam that would not only blow out the by the port in the shell, but also out the side of the engine.  Cool effect, but not what it was suppose to do.  All is now as it should be.

By the way, these mid engine mounted smoke unit brackets are very easily bent if you do not take care attaching the boiler shell. I sometimes will use a tooth pick to help align the smoke units.

Hope it turns out OK.

It certainly runs smoothly, and it seems quiet to my ears, except for a "bzzt" or "baseball card in the spokes" sound that is briefly audible at -0:06 in the video.  With smoke and sound operating, I'm not sure that you would hear anything at all.

Check the instruction manual.  If there's a grease port on the bottom of the chassis, you might be able to add grease without taking it apart.  Please post back and let us know if the issue is resolved.

I narrowed the problem down, it’s completely in the motor itself, it squeaks and creaks, and rumbles. The sound seemingly has nothing to do with the gearbox. I’ll contact lionel about a new motor, I tried emailing them a week ago and never received an answer (go figure) I’ve heard horror stories about lionels warranty department. I’ll attach a video of the motor running separately. Although it doesn’t sound that bad on its own, when it’s attached to the gearbox and the shell is in place it only amplifies the noise.

@TheTrainMain posted:

I’ll contact lionel about a new motor, I tried emailing them a week ago and never received an answer (go figure) I’ve heard horror stories about lionels warranty department.

As of several years ago. The best way to get Lionel warranty service is over the phone.

On a side note. I'm not saying the motor isn't defective, but none of our trains turn can motors anywhere near warp speed like that.

As I indicated in my post above, they are very responsive if you call them.  They will email you a return authorization label for pre-paid shipping to Lionel in Concord, NC.  800-454-6635 ext 2

It could be a wire rubbing on the flywheel of the motor.  That can and does make a similar sound oftentimes.  I've had that happen to a few of my locomotives.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

It could be a wire rubbing on the flywheel of the motor.  That can and does make a similar sound oftentimes.  I've had that happen to a few of my locomotives.

Nothing touching the flywheel, motor makes the sounds even removed from the locomotive.

@RickO posted:

As of several years ago. The best way to get Lionel warranty service is over the phone.

On a side note. I'm not saying the motor isn't defective, but none of our trains turn can motors anywhere near warp speed like that.

It almost sounds like the motor is unbalanced at certain speeds, and it squeaks at low speed. The motor probably has to run at warp speed due to the low gearing.

@TheTrainMain posted:

I narrowed the problem down, it’s completely in the motor itself, it squeaks and creaks, and rumbles. The sound seemingly has nothing to do with the gearbox. I’ll contact lionel about a new motor, I tried emailing them a week ago and never received an answer (go figure) I’ve heard horror stories about lionels warranty department. I’ll attach a video of the motor running separately. Although it doesn’t sound that bad on its own, when it’s attached to the gearbox and the shell is in place it only amplifies the noise.

There's nothing wrong with that motor IMO, at least from that video.  Any similar motor will be as loud when running that fast.

@TheTrainMain posted:

It almost sounds like the motor is unbalanced at certain speeds, and it squeaks at low speed. The motor probably has to run at warp speed due to the low gearing.

I was referring to the motor test video where it sounds like a power drill. No matter what locomotive. They never spin that fast. That's rc car stuff.

In the case of these 0-6-0s the motor still spins slowly relative to that motor test video. Add to that gearing that allows it to crawl at 1 scale mph, because it's a switcher.

Allow me to demonstrate: https://youtu.be/9HXfOnj7Mhk

@TheTrainMain posted:

I narrowed the problem down, it’s completely in the motor itself, it squeaks and creaks, and rumbles. The sound seemingly has nothing to do with the gearbox. I’ll contact lionel about a new motor, I tried emailing them a week ago and never received an answer (go figure) I’ve heard horror stories about lionels warranty department. I’ll attach a video of the motor running separately. Although it doesn’t sound that bad on its own, when it’s attached to the gearbox and the shell is in place it only amplifies the noise.

As someone that works with sound/noise control for a living, a new motor will not "fix" that.

The noise is due to the way they have configured the encoder.  The black fins off of the flywheel are used to measure motor speed for cruise.  However, since they are fins, rather than just visual marks on the flywheel, they are acting as a fan, and the tone is the blade passage frequency, a function of number of fins and number of obstructions (i.e. supports, frame) that the blades pass.  Since its geared to run the motor fast at relatively normal locomotive speeds, the tone is noticeable.

Exactly, the noise is likely the flywheel encoder.  My Legacy test-set motor makes the same kind of sound if I crank up the speed, and that motor is fine.  Any of the several dozen motors in my parts box are somewhat noisy at a few thousand RPM, even those without a toothed encoder wheel.

I’d agree with John, that motor seems to run good. All can motors will get noisy with no load and high rpm. A couple other things to look at: Look at the sensor to encoder ring clearance. Both vertically & laterally, see if the encoder ring is making contact with the two sensor halves,….the flywheel has either a set screw, or two, ( can’t remember on that model ) adjust as necessary, but the sensor must remain danger close to the encoder ring. Next, put a drop of oil on the output shafts. Both sides!…you will need a needle applicator to get to the one under the flywheel. Lastly, if you hear the brushes squeaking inside the can, you can give them a tiny shot of contact cleaner to clear away the brush dust that can cause a squeak. Caution if you choose to do this step!…fully allow any cleaner to evaporate off before applying power to the motor…..truth be told, any minor brush squeak, certainly won’t hurt a thing, and to be sure the sound system would overcome that once the motor is back in the shell,….

Pat

John,

Could you post a video of your motor on your test unit running at different speeds?

First: It wouldn't hurt to have a spare motor on-hand, it might prevent your loco from becoming an expensive shelf queen someday.  This would be a parts purchase, not a warranty claim.  I'm glad to see that Lionel used a U-joint between the motor and the worm.  Hooray for LionDrive!!

Second, I agree with Pat (harmonyards) and PSM that at least some of the noise is coming from, or is amplified by the slotted plastic tach ring.  The "bzzt" noise at -0:06 in your first video is probably something inside of the shell rubbing on the ring.

The flywheel is attached to the motor shaft by two set screws.  You could try loosening the set screws and re-seating the flywheel by gradually tightening each one (like torquing down the head bolts of a small-block Chevy.)  While you have it off, look closely at the tach ring in bright light... does it have any cracks or splits?  Also, does the motor still make the noise with the flywheel and tach ring removed?

As Pat said, it's prudent to put a drop of oil on the motor bearings where the shaft exits at each end of the "can."

In your case I don't think the brushes are squeaking.  If the brushes are fresh and square (as you would expect in a new loco), and if that particular motor has a commutator segment or two that is "high", sound may be produced as the brushes bounce at the edge of the high segment.  If this is the case and you turn the motor shaft slowly by hand you might feel it "stick" slightly.  The brushes will eventually wear concave to conform to the commutator.  But if the commutator does have a high segment, you'll get arcing.  The motor might not last as long or perform up to spec.

My $.02.  I like the way the loco is made and it should be a great performer, I wish more of them were made and geared like this!

I figured I'd post an update here, I tried the contact cleaner on the brush and extra EXTRA lubing the gearbox and it seemed to have worked wonders. The squeak is completely gone as well as some of the grinding noise. Seems to have come out pretty well. Sorry for the late update, I've been busy.

Here’s a quick vid of it running with sound, she’s a great runner, haven’t had any issues with the wired tether myself

This is a helpful thread. I have thought mine was a bit loud but I was waiting for it to break-in and quiet down. Thanks for sharing your solution!