Lionel Legacy ES44AC Stalling Frequently

Update:

I checked the trucks again and it seems the front truck was not turning smoothly, it would hang pretty easily after spinning back and forth. I dissembled further and found the inner axle gear that connects to the running gears. I think there may have been something jammed in there, I cleaned and re-greased it. So far it seems better, but still a little weak. Fingers crossed.

There could be a gear slipping on an axle...

If the receiver board has broken pins, those can be repaired.

Thanks for the reply, John. Do you know how I could tell if this is the case? The Flywheel moves along with the wheels upon test. Seems to be coupled well.

I really wish I had come here sooner, I did not realize the pins could be repaired, that was the exact issue. Do you think it would be worth it to repair and reinstall the old board and receiver? Not sure if it would make a difference for the issue I'm having.

Side note: I've found the locomotive will pull/start far more reliably if I put it in reverse and back it up a bit before resuming movement of the train.

How heavy is your train?  Are you trying to pull a heavy load up a slope (grade)?  I can't help you with the electronic side, but here are my theories:

If the gear or "helmet" (horned ball) is slipping, I don't think it would show up as an overload with cab lights flashing.  Then again, if one motor were slipping and the other motor tried to move the whole train itself, maybe...  A bind in the truck would cause it for sure.  That error condition exists to protect from overloading the motor or burning something out.

I've seen users' photos on the Forum showing Legacy locos with too much side-to-side play on the axles, causing poor engagement of the spur gears along the side of the truck.  I would double-check, if you have that problem it may contribute to intermittent binding, lock-up, and the stalled motor code.  Please post back and let us know what you found.

@Ted S posted:

If the gear or "helmet" (horned ball) is slipping, I don't think it would show up as an overload with cab lights flashing.

Actually, if the motor shaft is slipping in the Liondrive truck with Legacy, it will indeed show up as a motor issue and give you the single cab light blink, I've seen it many times.  If you actually get it moving, the other motor will help with the pulling power and it will sort of work as long as it keeps moving.

It's simple to check, twist off the truck and check the integrity of the motor drive.

Thanks, Ted. I've checked the side to side play on the axles and gears, it seems within spec, I couldn't get it to bind. There is no slope or grade on my layout. I'm pulling a Lionel Dash 9 dummy and 6 MTH coal cars, sometimes 2 or 3 more cars than that. My little RS-11 will easily handle twice that. I'm starting to think the ES44AC is more sensitive to stalling and possibly track condition. I use lionel standard O track. While I do my best to clean, some of the sections aren't exactly shiny.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's simple to check, twist off the truck and check the integrity of the motor drive.

Thanks, GRJ. It seems to be in order as far as I can tell, all the drive components seemed to be in good condition and functional. I may be missing something, but I wouldn't know what.

Side note, I found another user's post on this forum with what seems to be the same issue, or very similar. Same workaround I'm currently using, too. Reverse a bit first, then all seems to work. Leads me to believe the board replacement might not be the issue here.

I'd apply the same fix as suggested in that thread, open up the top of the trucks and grease the gears.  I'd also give the drive "nubs" on the motors a good yank with your fingers to make sure they're secure.  I've found quite a number of them loose, I've taken to putting them back on using Loctite 660 Retaining Compound if they're loose.

Just an update: I've been running this engine for a couple weeks almost everyday, nothing has really improved. I've checked the nubs on the motors, they seem secure. I greased the gears on the top of the trucks. Greased and oiled wherever possible. Made sure the track is clean. The only thing I can think of is maybe my power supply isn't adequate? I'm using a CW-80 for about 40-50 foot oval of standard O track. I'm wondering if upgrading to a 180 watt Power brick would do anything.

Otherwise, I'm beginning to think this engine is just 'weak,' for lack of a better term. Really a bummer, as this is my flagship locomotive.

At what voltage are you running the engine?  If I am running another train and the voltage drops, the next engine may show a fault.  If I bring the voltage back up to between 16-18 volts it runs fine.

Marty

@CoalDrag posted:

Just an update: I've been running this engine for a couple weeks almost everyday, nothing has really improved. I've checked the nubs on the motors, they seem secure. I greased the gears on the top of the trucks. Greased and oiled wherever possible. Made sure the track is clean. The only thing I can think of is maybe my power supply isn't adequate? I'm using a CW-80 for about 40-50 foot oval of standard O track. I'm wondering if upgrading to a 180 watt Power brick would do anything.

Otherwise, I'm beginning to think this engine is just 'weak,' for lack of a better term. Really a bummer, as this is my flagship locomotive.

Try a smaller loop.  That seems like a bit of track for that 80w transformer.  As mentioned above what is the voltage?

How many connections from the transformer to the track (power drops) do you have ?

According to my multimeter, the track is only getting about 14.5-15 volts with the transformer at full power. I then tried a perfect O-72 circle and the voltage was about the same, maybe a little less. It didn't seem to help the engine much, but I'm guessing the voltage is the real issue here? Need more wattage?

I have only one CTC lock-on from the transformer.

Is that a no-load measurement ? Seems low for a CW-80 at max power. I'm assuming your lock-on track connection is from the track output terminals of the transformer and not the accessory terminals.

That engine is designed to operate at 18 Volts in command mode. My experience is that some Legacy engines are more sensitive to voltage than others and perhaps this may be one of them.

I'd see if I could borrow someone else's transformer with more power and add a second lock-on to the track about 180 degrees opposite the first one and see if that helps.

Thanks, Richie. It is indeed a no-load measurement, I double checked today with the CTC connector at a different spot. Also, my track connection is from the 'track' output terminals and not the accessory. For fun I tested the accessory terminals, they output 10 volts at max power.

I'm thinking there is something wrong with this transformer, on the back it specifies the range for both sets of terminals from 0-18VAC. It's around 12 years old and was sitting around not in use for most of that time.

Unfortunately, I don't have any friends in the hobby, so I may have to invest in a new transformer. Any recommendations? I was thinking 180 watt power brick, I don't really run anything conventionally.

Would running my engine at this lower voltage damage anything?

@CoalDrag I agree that a CW-80 isn't the best power supply for a premium, dual-motored scale loco.  Most people would recommend an MTH Z-1000 over that in a heartbeat.  But-- you mentioned the Legacy RS-11.  If you're testing that in the same environment (i.e., on the same layout with the same transformer and train) and it doesn't exhibit the stalling behavior, then clearly there's something unique about your ES44AC that's causing the problem.

Does yours have a die-cast body shell?  Remember, the motors have to move the weight of the loco as well as any trailing load.  Besides a bind in the drivetrain, the only thing I can think of, is that the minimum threshold to trigger overcurrent protection is set too low.  I.e., it gives up too easily and pleads for mercy without really trying.  I guess that threshold is set in the firmware on a chip.   I've never heard of anyone changing it, or "hot-wiring" around it.  If you're 100% sure there are no mechanical issues, then IMO the only way you're going to beat this is to start swapping motors and boards.  My $.02.

@Ted S It has an ABS shell. I'm as close to positive as I can be that this isn't caused by binding. I may post a video so people can see how the flywheel behaves upon throttle application. It's strange, it barely tries to spin if you stop the locomotive and try to resume motion, but if I change direction it seems to send more juice to the motors to start the flywheel turning.

I agree that the motor protection threshold is absurdly low, but do you think the low track voltage would have anything to do with this? I thought the CW-80 would output more than 14.9VAC.

As for the trusty RS-11, I was thinking it was just a little lighter in requirements. I do still have the old board and receiver unit for the ES44AC, so I could attempt a swap with the new receiver board. Not sure it would be worth it over a new transformer.

Hi All!
Long time no talk. I just wanted to give an update. I finally got around to swapping the old board back into the ES44. I transferred the new receiver board to the old main board. @Ted S was entirely correct. The issue was with the main board. Must be something with the circuitry on the new board I purchased.  It works very well now, pulls like it did when I first got it 10 years ago. Feels like it has power again.

The reason I changed both the main board and the receiver board was twofold:

• I had no idea how to repair the pins on the old receiver board.
• The receiver board and main board came as a single unit from Lionel, at the time I thought it made more sense to keep them together, in case there was some revision on the receiver board that would cause issues with the main.

In hindsight, I should have gone with the least amount of variables and just swapped the receiver board, but oh well. All is good for now. I'm posting mostly this in case anyone else has the same issue. Assuming the motors are working fine, and gears are clean and moving freely, the problem is likely with the main board.

Thanks everyone, and have a great holiday season.