Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

So which Lionel engines will need the fix?

These are only Legacy engines with a Lionel redesign of the K-Line gearbox?

Which engines with this Lionel redesign are ok?

Good thread, sharing of knowledge is one of the things that make the OGR Forum great.

Dave, clearly this gear box is here to stay…..so having a thread that lumps all the locomotives on one list, good or bad, will be very helpful to all,….then if any need some help, we can discuss it on here as well, and keep those machines on the rails where they belong,….😉

Pat

@BobbyD posted:

So which Lionel engines will need the fix?

These are only Legacy engines with a Lionel redesign of the K-Line gearbox?

Which engines with this Lionel redesign are ok?

Good thread, sharing of knowledge is one of the things that make the OGR Forum great.

A list will be compiled, but the first K4'S from I think 2010 are where it starts. Suspect any of the light and heavy Mike's that followed that and maybe the 2017 catalog offerings(I think that was th next bunch of K4'S), Mike's may have been another offering in 2016 I think.

@BobbyD posted:

So which Lionel engines will need the fix?

These are only Legacy engines with a Lionel redesign of the K-Line gearbox?

Which engines with this Lionel redesign are ok?

Good thread, sharing of knowledge is one of the things that make the OGR Forum great.

So far, the only one exhibiting an issue is the Legacy K4s….that one has a proven failure rate…..although, the thread is young, and hence I say “so far” ….so stay tuned, and keep reading….we need others to take a peek at their legacy offerings and verify if they see the potential issue, or if they’re good to go…..perhaps on the opening thread post I can edit it to have a list of those that need no worry, and those that would require an inspection and possibly a remedy….however, I’m open to suggestions on where and when a list could evolve …..

Pat

Please don't say the Polar RR K-4 Pat!

  Lots of good info here. I don’t know a lot of the mechanics on these engines. A few years back Lionel started making engines with back driveable gears. Was that the reason for the change on K-Line engines and some of their own designs ?  I have 4 of the Legacy Mikes and they have it. I have 3 versions of Mohawks but I don’t think the first run version had it.

Thumbsup harmonyards! I have owned the K-line K4 for over 10 years w/o a problem. When a previous thread posted discussing this frustrating problem, it raised concerns about my engine becoming a shelf queen in the future. Your diagnosis and fix for the Legacy models with the problem is welcome news for K-line owners like me and the Legacy owners.

Okay, so since the Superbowl was over, and I was pumped up, I popped over to the Lionel site to look through the catalogs. I compiled a list of all the numbers from 2011-2020(since 2011 was the first K4 offering). They are broken down by class, listed model number, railroad, road number, conventional where applicable, and year released. I don't know if all on this list are issues, but I figured I would throw together what I saw. I don't know about the 2015 V2 Consolidation's as I don't know what was used for the gearboxes since I don't have any of those nor heard anything about them. I did list USRA Pacific's as I don't know about those either. Maybe someone can attest to how well they run.

So, here is the list. There are a lot of Mike's

K4's Design Flaw Fail!
6-11264 PRR 1361 2011 fail
6-11265 PRR 1330 2011 fail
6-11266 PRR 1361 conventional 2011 fail
6-11327 PRR 3667 2011 fail
6-11329 PRR 3678 2011 fail
6-11319 Tuscan PRR 5409 2013 fail
6-11320 Tuscan PRR 5436 conventional 2013 fail
6-84116 PRR 5432 LHT 2016 fail
6-84115 PRR 5385 LHT 2016 fail
6-84816 PRR Broadway Limited 5493 2017 fail
1922030 PRR W.G. Harding Funeral 3750 2018 fail

Mike's
6-11278 WP 322 2011 fail
6-11279 WP 327 2011 fail
6-11280 B&O 4507 2011 fail
6-11281 B&O 451 conventional 2011 fail
6-11286 RI 2302 2011 fail
6-11287 RI 2305 conventional 2011 fail
6-11288 T&P 552 2011 fail
6-11289 T&P 557 conventional 2011 fail
6-11282 GN 3125 2011 fail
6-11284 MP 1310 2011 fail
6-11255 C&O 1062 2012 fail
6-11256 NH 3021 2012 fail
6-11257 PRR 8631 2012 fail
6-11258 Southern 4501(Green) 2012 fail
6-11259 UP 2840 2012 fail
6-11260 RG 1207 2012 fail
6-11261 DM&IR 1305 2012 fail
6-11262 Erie 3007 2012 fail
6-81182 L&N 1757 2014 fail
6-81184 P&WV 1152 2014 fail
6-81185 C of NJ 845 2014 fail
6-81186 Frisco 4126 2014 fail
6-81187 C&IM 551 2014 fail
6-81188 NYC 9506 2014 fail
6-81192 GN 3148 2014 fail
6-88179 Pilot 2014 fail
6-81183 MP 1496 2015 fail
6-81181 Southern 4866 2015 fail
6-81189 CB&Q 5509 2015 fail
6-81038 MR 8693 2015 fail
6-81191 Erie 3207 2015 fail
6-81190 WP 334 2015 fail
6-81193 W&LE 6012 2015 fail
6-81180 Black Unlettered 2015 fail
6-81194 NPR 689 2015 fail
6-84532 NPR 587 2017 fail
6-84466 GTW 3734 2017 fail
6-84467 MC 624 2017 fail
6-84468 NYC 5187 2017 fail
6-84469 PRR 9630 2017 fail
6-84470 Southern 4758 2017 fail
6-84465 B&O 4500 2017 fail
6-84471 UP 2537 2017 fail
2131310 ACL 823 2020 fail
2131330 GTW 4070 2020 fail
2131320 Georgia 300 2020 fail
2131340 L&HR 83 2020 fail
2131350 Monon 554 2020 fail
2131360 Frisco 4003 2020 fail
2131370 Southern 4501(Black) 2020 fail
2131380 Wabash 2202 2020 fail

USRA Chassis different from K4 design motor in Firebox connected to worm/gearbox with shaft
Pacific's
6-11338 Alton Limited 657 2012 Pass
6-11335 Blue Comet 832 2012 Pass
6-11334 Cresent Limited 1393 2012 Pass
6-11423 Blue Comet 833 2012 Pass
6-85170 A&WP 290 2018 Pass
6-85171 B&O 5300 2018 Pass
6-85172 R&N 425 2018 Pass
6-85173 NP 2256 2018 Pass
6-85174 Southern 1372 2018 Pass
6-85175 Halloween 1031 2018 Pass

All Pass for 2021 offerings

2122070 Asa Packer Set Lehigh Valley #2023 2021
2122080 Cardinals Set NYC #4899 2021
2122170 Santa Fe Valley Flyer #1369 2021
2131240 Atlantic Coast Line #1504 2021
2131250 GM&O #5296 2021
2131260 Great Northern #1385 2021
2131270 M-K-T #411 2021
2131280 Nickel Plate #168 2021
2131290 Southern Pacific #611 2021
2131300 Union Pacific #3218 2021
2131660 B&O #5236 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131670 Delaware, Lacakawanna & Western #1133 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131680 Louisville & Nashville #280 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131690 Monon #444 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131700 New York Central #3330 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021

H10's
6-84953 PRR Coal Hauler 1773 2018 fail
6-84948 PRR 1288 2018 fail
6-84949 PRSL 6072 2018 fail
6-84951 Bellefonte Central 2018 fail
6-85386 Pennsy Lines West 7109 2018 fail
6-84950 LI 109 2018 fail
6-84952 Weathered PRR 3529 2018 fail
6-85387 Western Allegheny 85 2018 fail

I can edit the list to take stuff off if we need to.

@harmonyards posted:

If the one you bought is out of warranty, and you don’t mind opening it up, share your findings with the rest of the class, and this whole thread will be the who’s who of what’s good and bad,…..feel free to contribute ….extra points for pictures,…😁…..points redeemable for likes,….that’s about it though…..

Pat

Unfortunately (at least in this particular case), mine still has a good year or so before the warranty runs out since I bought it from an authorized dealer (Rider's in Flint, MI), and I don't want to risk meddling with it - at least not for now.

For those who are brave and are able to, though, you've got a lot of Mikes to choose to open and check.

Lionel cataloged the Lights in 2011, 2012, 2017, and most recently 2020 - the one I just got is from the 2020 batch.

The Heavy ones were only 2014 and 2015. (Shocked Lionel hasn't rerun this version yet with Bluetooth)

There's also the brass Hybrid Santa Fe model from 2017-18 that used the same chassis and running gear.

That's a lot of locomotives using the same base in less than a decade when you think about it!

I have a brand new 3750 from the Harding funeral set. Hopefully they fixed this by the time this was released.  I'm away for the week on travel for work, but when I get back home I'll tear into it.  For science!

I'm wondering if the replacement drive blocks come with a "patch" to prevent it from happening again.

@rplst8 posted:

I have a brand new 3750 from the Harding funeral set. Hopefully they fixed this by the time this was released.  I'm away for the week on travel for work, but when I get back home I'll tear into it.  For science!

I'm wondering if the replacement drive blocks come with a "patch" to prevent it from happening again.

I’m not sure they’re even aware their is/was an issue……so yes, if you can pop open your gear box cover and pull the shaft out and snap a couple pics, then the info can be on here for everyone to know…..

Pat

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Unfortunately (at least in this particular case), mine still has a good year or so before the warranty runs out since I bought it from an authorized dealer (Rider's in Flint, MI), and I don't want to risk meddling with it - at least not for now.

For those who are brave and are able to, though, you've got a lot of Mikes to choose to open and check.

Lionel cataloged the Lights in 2011, 2012, 2017, and most recently 2020 - the one I just got is from the 2020 batch.

The Heavy ones were only 2014 and 2015. (Shocked Lionel hasn't rerun this version yet with Bluetooth)

There's also the brass Hybrid Santa Fe model from 2017-18 that used the same chassis and running gear.

That's a lot of locomotives using the same base in less than a decade when you think about it!

It would be ideal to possibly have an example from at least every batch on this thread ( at some point, anyways) to put this to bed once & for all,…..not only to educate all of us, but also if the need comes up for a fix such as the K4s …..

Pat

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4, Thanks for taking the time to compile that list.

russ

@pennsyfanman posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4, Thanks for taking the time to compile that list.

russ

No problem. The list doesn't necessarily mean that everything on there has the gearbox problem, but it is a possibility.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

No problem. The list doesn't necessarily mean that everything on there has the gearbox problem, but it is a possibility.

Exactly!!….the idea of the thread is to eliminate the good ones, identify any possible bad ones, make note of it, and develop the work around,…..that’ll put all of this to bed…😉

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Okay, so since the Superbowl was over, and I was pumped up, I popped over to the Lionel site to look through the catalogs. I compiled a list of all the numbers from 2011-2020(since 2011 was the first K4 offering). They are broken down by class, listed model number, railroad, road number, conventional where applicable, and year released.

So, here is the list. There are a lot of Mike's

K4's
6-11264 PRR 1361 2011
6-11265 PRR 1330 2011
6-11266 PRR 1361 conventional 2011
6-11327 PRR 3667 2011
6-11329 PRR 3678 2011
6-11319 Tuscan PRR 5409 2013
6-11320 Tuscan PRR 5436 conventional 2013
6-84116 PRR 5432 LHT 2016
6-84115 PRR 5385 LHT 2016
6-84816 PRR Broadway Limited 5493 2017
1922030 PRR W.G. Harding Funeral 3750

I can edit the list to take stuff off if we need to.

Are the Polar Railroad 11330 Legacy and 11331 Conventional K-4's included also?  Will Lionel stand behind these?

@BobbyD posted:

Are the Polar Railroad 11330 Legacy and 11331 Conventional K-4's included also?  Will Lionel stand behind these?

Hmm, I don't know how I missed the 11331. 11330 is O Gauge whole 11331 is scale. I don't know if it is the same gearing or if the O Gauge is smaller. It is possible that any of the conventional engines could be geared differently than any of the Legacy offerings, the thing being that it would have to get looked at to determine that. I don't have either of those so I wouldn't be able to say.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hmm, I don't know how I missed the 11331. 11330 is O Gauge whole 11331 is scale. I don't know if it is the same gearing or if the O Gauge is smaller. It is possible that any of the conventional engines could be geared differently than any of the Legacy offerings, the thing being that it would have to get looked at to determine that. I don't have either of those so I wouldn't be able to say.

Thanks. They are "K-Line" tooling engines. Have a friend with the Santa Fe Hybrid. He's not gonna be happy if it has this issue! :-)

@BobbyD posted:

Thanks. They are "K-Line" tooling engines. Have a friend with the Santa Fe Hybrid. He's not gonna be happy if it has this issue! :-)

We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,….let’s not have mass panic attacks just yet,…..right now this is just a fact finding mission,……no call to arms just yet,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,….let’s not have mass panic attacks just yet,…..right now this is just a fact finding mission,……no call to arms just yet,….

Pat

Which K4 was it that Rick O had, one of the long haul tenders? I know he said one of the Mike's and the H10 which was in his video.

@harmonyards posted:

We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,…

Pat

Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4,"  that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming??  Just early off of the line?  If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?

Thanks!  You're an awesome ambassador of this hobby.  We're lucky...

@Larry Mullen posted:

Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4,"  that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming??  Just early off of the line?  If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?

Thanks!  You're an awesome ambassador of this hobby.  We're lucky...

Early as in the first Legacy versions.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Legacy K4 has the motor shaft rear facing, that's why it's a problem!   It looks just like the K-Line when you take them apart.

Most steamers have the shaft facing forward, don't know why they did this, it appears they copied the K-line chassis.

Does this mean the K-line steam engines also have this problem?

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Does this mean the K-line steam engines also have this problem?

No, they’re built differently than the Legacy models…..what’s confusing is when Lionel obtained the KLine tooling, they modified the existing gear box on the KLine tooling for Legacy controls……this is where the problem arose…..as of right now, the only known for sure issue is with 1st Gen Legacy K4s ……

Pat

I popped open my 2019 run of the Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northern to check the gearbox. I took it apart to lube it when I first bought it but forgot what it looked like. There is a spacer next to the worm wheel to keep it centered. You can see it to the right of the worm shaft in this photo.

It appears that the issue of the worm wheel shifting may be limited to the early Legacy K4. So either the K4 gearbox was designed without the spacer to keep the worm wheel centered or the manufacture forgot to add it when assembling. One would have to open more former K-Line tooled locomotives, with the forward facing small 385 style motor with the worm pressed to the motor, to see if Lionel corrected the gearbox issue in the later runs.

But, based on this thread, it sounds like the Legacy steam equipped with this multiple gear setup in their gearbox and a worm shaft separate from the motor aren't affected by this issue. So far the gearboxes on these locomotives have had a spacer to keep the worm wheel centered under the worm shaft.

Great work Pete & Lou, thanks for the pics and the confirmation,…..so far, the Legacy Mohawks, Legacy Northerns, and the Legacy Berks ( KLine rebuilt Berks) are all ok….I’m not seeing anything that looks like it might crap out in any of those pics…..no??…

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Which K4 was it that Rick O had, one of the long haul tenders? I know he said one of the Mike's and the H10 which was in his video.

I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.

That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.

I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may  have to pop the top of the gearbox.

Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?

To install any type of washer you would have to press the shaft at least half way out.  Doable but would require a fair amount of disassembly.

Pete

@RickO posted:

I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.

That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.

I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may  have to pop the top of the gearbox.

Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?

Rick, so the H10 is a possibly a trouble maker?…..I recall you having an issue,…I assume you haven’t pulled the shell off?…as far as a plastic washer, ….that might be a band aid fix IMO, ….I’d like to develop permanent repeatable solutions for these locomotives so none are left behind,….as with the early Legacy K4s, that fix is going to be a longevity repair…..can you post up the pics you took of that model?..I recall you had some pics?…no??….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Great work Pete & Lou, thanks for the pics and the confirmation,…..so far, the Legacy Mohawks, Legacy Northerns, and the Legacy Berks ( KLine rebuilt Berks) are all ok….I’m not seeing anything that looks like it might crap out in any of those pics…..no??…

Pat

I don't see anything that looks like it'll fail under normal use. The multi gear setup MTH uses in it's articulated gearboxes appears a little more rugged, but not crazily so.

I still prefer the late 90s/early 2000s TMCC and MTH gearbox (all years) with the one large worm wheel, large worm shaft, and big bearings. Those things are tanks.

@harmonyards posted:

Rick, so the H10 is a possibly a trouble maker?…..I recall you having an issue,…I assume you haven’t pulled the shell off

Pat

I haven't had a problem but there is some side to side slop in there. These photos are taken after removing the bottom plate that this tooling has.  Not the best, hard to get good lighting in there. the first photo is the worm wheel all the way out. I believe this is where it is shoved when running in the forward direction. The second is with it all the way in, which of course occurs in reverse.

@RickO posted:

I haven't had a problem but there is some side to side slop in there. These photos are taken after removing the bottom plate that this tooling has.  Not the best, hard to get good lighting in there. the first photo is the worm wheel all the way out. I believe this is where it is shoved when running in the forward direction. The second is with it all the way in, which of course occurs in reverse.

Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….

Pat

@RickO posted:

I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.

That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.

I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may  have to pop the top of the gearbox.

Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?

Okay, so the Heavy Mike Rick is talking about is in the 2014 offering, 6-81188 NYC 9506 2014 and the H10 is definitely in the 2018 run since that is where they come from. I'm curious though about the 2015 offering of the Consolidations that were offered.

@harmonyards posted:

Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….

Pat

Well Pat, it looks like my H10 will definitely be making a trip down to see you at some point in time.

@harmonyards posted:

Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….

Pat

From those pictures, I'd say about one more fraction of an inch and you'll have gear grindings in the bottom of the gearbox!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

From those pictures, I'd say about one more fraction of an inch and you'll have gear grindings in the bottom of the gearbox!

  

John, do you have a Lionel H10 or was it MTH?

Pat, your work is fantastic as always! If it helps at all, feel free to pop open the k-line K4 I sent you for a pitman upgrade as a comparison.

Interesting.  I 2-railed a couple K-Line locomotives when they first appeared on the scene.  I was not impressed with the gearbox at all - the worm gear was just too small.  But I used the stock gearbox, after turning things around and putting a Pittman in the firebox.  OK for light duty, like a circuit around the oval once a month.

The Museum got a 2-rail Berk directly from K-Line.  It apparently made it for a year before the worm gear failed.  One of the locals hobbed a new gear for it, and then I lost track of mainenance issues down there.  I was happy fixing things, but unwilling to endure the parking issues.

Shame - one of the nice things about 3-rail steam has always been the incredibly robust gearing.  My 763 will never ever die of gear failure.

We could use more input from DIY guys, and techs alike that can open and examine these Legacy models,….this way, at the very top of the thread on the first post, we’ll identify those models that can benefit from the fix, and have that list in an easy to understand format…..also, I can edit the title so it’s comprehensive, and easy to find in a search,…….it’d be nice to have the list in one place, rather than scoured throughout the thread,…..so if you have a legacy, ( and it’s out of warranty) and you don’t mind taking a peek like Pete & Lou did, that information will be invaluable to the thread……

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

John, do you have a Lionel H10 or was it MTH?

I have two of the newer Legacy H10's, I'll have to peek inside...

Much appreciated John.

Last I stopped by your layout, you had one of the 2011-12 run of the light Mikes. If you could take a peak inside that, that’d be fantastic!