@Bob posted:Wasn't there some talk about these motors failing in the Vision CC2s 0-8-8-0's when pulling heavy trains?
Maybe but I don’t recall that. Good chance these particular motors are not made in Germany so all bets are off. The only thing I am aware of is comparable size motors don’t have as much torque as the Pittmans they replace, maybe 2/3rds at best.
Pete
I’d welcome the switch ( either back or forward) to Buehler……I was not impressed with the Cannons ……if they did switch unilaterally, clearly the big L saw the writing on the wall as well,….either that, or Buehler put in a vendor bid, and just so happened to beat out Cannon,……but ain’t it a Cannon in the new 2-10-10- whatever it is ATSF monster??….perhaps they’re using both as vendors??.
Pat
@Bob posted:Wasn't there some talk about these motors failing in the Vision CC2s 0-8-8-0's when pulling heavy trains?
It actually wasn't the motor. I talked to a tech that worked on few CC2s when they came out. He found the motor driver board was at fault. It was leaking AC to the DC motor which caused it to run hot.
@Norton posted:Maybe but I don’t recall that. Good chance these particular motors are not made in Germany so all bets are off. The only thing I am aware of is comparable size motors don’t have as much torque as the Pittmans they replace, maybe 2/3rds at best.
Pete
Here's the specs of the Buhler motor they are probably using, in case you were curious:
Lionel put Buhlers in the second batch of Legacy scale PM/PE berksires. I don't know of any other roadnames got them.
Having said that, between the heft of the loco itself and the option of a long freight train or however many scale PE passenger cars one might pull. You'd think we'd hear about a cooked motor.
I own the scale PE version.its been awhile since I had the shell off. I believe there is a flywheel on each end instead of just on the output shaft for whatever reason.
Here's a picture from Lionel parts:
Back to the topic at hand. If no one beats me too it. I'll see about popping the top of the gearbox on my h10 this weekend.
@harmonyards posted:Here’s the deal, …if you can open yours up, and it’s the same as the 2011 run, then it’s game, set, match, the entire line of K4’s is now suspect to failure, …..if you open yours up, and find a thick spacer next to the worm wheel, opposite the spur gear, then we know we have to back up to find where they made the change……see my point??…
Pat
Totally. I”m just not home this week to do it. Will do asap.
Very cool fellas, ….it’d be nice to put some of these questionable models to bed one way or the other…….
Pat
One question on the Mike's, the chassis should be identical (for the most part) and only the shells between light and heavy versions being the only difference? I know that when the discussion had come up about the difference between the two real life versions it came down to I think boiler length and size but the wheels, chassis and such would be the same? Does that make sense, it's not like it is the difference between a Mike and a Mountain(Mohawk) we're talking about?
Dave,
You'd be correct. The chassis between the light and heavy Mikes are identical.
The brass Hybrid Santa Fe Mikado from 2018 also uses this chassis.
Thanks to a cancelled call, I was able to grab some time to unbox and checkout my H-10. I tried to get a few photos from different angles that should hopefully help. I believe there being some variations in how these locos were constructed when delivered (mine came with the protruding tender hatch, etc.) Not sure if variations extended to the gear set up, but it might be worth getting more data points on the H-10.
There is quite a bit of slop in this loco. After being returned from Lionel, I had to reposition/align the gears for the engine to run properly. There's also a piece of shim like plastic by the motor that seems a bit small for it's purpose. I don't think there are any spacers in the gearbox itself.
It doesn't look like there's as much room for the gear to wander to the edge as there is in the K-4 gearbox.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:It doesn't look like there's as much room for the gear to wander to the edge as there is in the K-4 gearbox.
Maybe so, but I've never had an engine who's gears got misaligned after shipping like this H-10 did. It was a PITA trying to get everything lined up up again to get the thing running. Prior to doing so it would run a few inches and just bind up. Hopefully I didn't knock it out of gear again now that I've opened it up! lol
I'm curious if you have seen that happen before on other locos? I assumed it was because of the new gearbox design.
@Alex W posted:It was a PITA trying to get everything lined up up again to get the thing running. Prior to doing so it would run a few inches and just bind up. Hopefully I didn't knock it out of gear again now that I've opened it up! lol
Thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll just leave well enough alone and if it ever starts chattering I'll let Pat work his magic.
Being a smaller loco to begin with. I don't pull more than half a dozen or so cars anyway, and die cast cars are forbidden on my layout.
@Alex W posted:Maybe so, but I've never had an engine who's gears got misaligned after shipping like this H-10 did. It was a PITA trying to get everything lined up up again to get the thing running. Prior to doing so it would run a few inches and just bind up. Hopefully I didn't knock it out of gear again now that I've opened it up! lol
I'm curious if you have seen that happen before on other locos? I assumed it was because of the new gearbox design.
Clearly that batch of H10’s will benefit from a fix similar to the K4s…..thanks for posting the pics!….any gear wander is bad IMO, and if we can stop it, let’s do it….if that gear gets onto a leading edge, and not buried where the heel & toe meet, to be sure at some point they’ll go into self destruct mode……
perhaps if Dave sees this reply, he can now start highlighting or some sort of note on his master list of locomotives he posted for us to see,……put a great big “FAIL” next to the locomotive,…..that’ll make it obvious!…😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Clearly that batch of H10’s will benefit from a fix similar to the K4s…..thanks for posting the pics!….any gear wander is bad IMO, and if we can stop it, let’s do it….if that gear gets onto a leading edge, and not buried where the heel & toe meet, to be sure at some point they’ll go into self destruct mode……
perhaps if Dave sees this reply, he can now start highlighting or some sort of note on his master list of locomotives he posted for us to see,……put a great big “FAIL” next to the locomotive,…..that’ll make it obvious!…😉
Pat
Noted Pat though I didn't do all caps, bold works just as well.
@harmonyards posted:Clearly that batch of H10’s will benefit from a fix similar to the K4s…..thanks for posting the pics!….any gear wander is bad IMO, and if we can stop it, let’s do it….if that gear gets onto a leading edge, and not buried where the heel & toe meet, to be sure at some point they’ll go into self destruct mode……
perhaps if Dave sees this reply, he can now start highlighting or some sort of note on his master list of locomotives he posted for us to see,……put a great big “FAIL” next to the locomotive,…..that’ll make it obvious!…😉
Pat
No problem - happy to contribute. After the K4 project, let me know if you need an H10 as a test for the fix. More than willing to offer mine up - unfortunately it sits packed away most of the time these days.
Really appreciate all the work that folks like yourself, Dave, and John are doing to keep these engines running.
@Alex W posted:No problem - happy to contribute. After the K4 project, let me know if you need an H10 as a test for the fix. More than willing to offer mine up - unfortunately it sits packed away most of the time these days.
Really appreciate all the work that folks like yourself, Dave, and John are doing to keep these engines running.
All I do is comment about things, like posts, get engines upgraded, and just remember a great many things. Sunday I just flew through the catalogs trying to get all the numbers and such. Either way the engines would have come up as we did gave an idea of the really bad ones, but we still have others that are sort of unknown as their status.
You would think that perhaps after the 2011 offerings that some things would have been found out by Lionel and corrected, but there is the problem. How are they going to know if no one is telling them. There are a good number of engines on that list, and I have very few which consist of the back part of it, not the front. If no one has a portion of the middle, essentially we are left with sleeping giants(or monsters) that we may never know about. This is why this list is important to get to the bottom of.
That being said, I don't know if any of the engines on the list were not produced. However, as longs as one in the bunch from that year, we have some sort of footprint to what it would have been. See what comes out.
Low quality video of Lionel PRR k-4 6-11328 exhibiting what I suspect is gear misalignment being discussed here.
I sent the engine to forum sponsor The Train Doctor last month hoping they could solve the issue. So far I have not
heard from them that they have had an opportunity to evaluate the engine. How timely is this current post. Thank you all for the great information.
@PRRMike posted:Low quality video of Lionel PRR k-4 6-11328 exhibiting what I suspect is gear misalignment being discussed here.
Yikes! That's the same model I had.
On mine, the secondary shaft started wearing into the chassis bushing on one side. It was actually making small bronze shavings.
A real shame though, great looking k4 and one of the smoothest running locos I ever owned.
I think the K Line /Lionel legacy k4 tooling is the only one that catches the unique driver detail of the prototype. The Mth and Lionel tmcc k4 (and a half lol) just have the run of the mill spoked drivers.
Mike, it could be that they are busy and they haven't had a chance to get to look at your engine. You could check in with them maybe, as well as maybe tell them about this exact topic. Pat's solution is sensible and easy. Some others have posted about fixes for issues that have come up and those have been shared, like the Atlantic's and the loose wires inside rubbing on the motor, and let's not forget the Moguls.
Not trying to inmate frustration with the guys in Jersey, I'm sure they're busy and will get to my engine when they can.
This k-4 is probably my favorite locomotive. I am hoping it can return to the roster in good working order. And oh yea,
I have a Central Vermont mogul too.
@PRRMike posted:Not trying to inmate frustration with the guys in Jersey, I'm sure they're busy and will get to my engine when they can.
This k-4 is probably my favorite locomotive. I am hoping it can return to the roster in good working order. And oh yea,
I have a Central Vermont mogul too.
If you do get up with them, and as long as the gears aren’t completely trashed, your chassis is repairable, ….no need to buy a whole new chassis, if your repairman needs assistance, they can contact me. Info can be obtained via profile …..
Pat
Thanks Pat
@harmonyards posted:.The fix can only be applied to those locomotives that have not totally destroyed the top worm wheel, or totally wallered out the intermediate shaft beyond repair ….it can however, be a preemptive first strike package, in other words, new or lightly used engines will benefit from the fix, as this part will keep the gear centered. Testing shows zero additional wear using Mobil 1 synthetic grease in the
Pat
Hey Pat, just a thought. I haven't heard anything from yourself (or John) regarding any wear of the secondary shaft bushings in the chassis.
It appears to me that much of the load/torque is taken on the axle gear side of the bushing. This is the side that severe wear of the bushing occurred on my k4. The chassis bushing on the opposite side was like new.
I noticed this with the unscientific method of gently rocking the loco back and forth while it was off, and observing the shaft rocking side to side in the bushing which was clearly worn oblong to the naked eye.
I think the gear centering is only one potential issue with this design.
It'll be interesting to see if these bushings hold up years down the road as run times add up. Especially since most folks are unaware of them. The manual does not even recommend lubrication.
@RickO posted:Hey Pat, just a thought. I haven't heard anything from yourself (or John) regarding any wear of the secondary shaft bushings in the chassis.
It appears to me that much of the load/torque is taken on the axle gear side of the bushing. This is the side that severe wear of the bushing occurred on my k4. The chassis bushing on the opposite side was like new.
I noticed this with the unscientific method of gently rocking the loco back and forth while it was off, and observing the shaft rocking side to side in the bushing which was clearly worn oblong to the naked eye.
I think the gear centering is only one potential issue with this design.
It'll be interesting to see if these bushings hold up years down the road as run times add up. Especially since most folks are unaware of them. The manual does not even recommend lubrication.
Rick, I’ve made note of this issue based on what your findings were on the initial post I made way back on page 1 ……..the only locomotives I can for surely save are those that don’t have a trashed bushing and trashed gears,…..The two I’ve added the fix to do not have a destroyed bushing….AMOF, David Ross’s 2011 K4s is making laps as we speak, tugging 12 cars,……I have the gear box crammed with Mobil 1 synthetic grease, and drops of 75-140 gear oil on those bushings …….we’ll let her run off and on couple more days and then open her up and see what the parts look like……so far she’s happy, smoke is obviously turned off, but amp draws are in the dirt, so that tells me the “fix” isn’t being a parasitic drag……but yes, to answer your question, if the bushing is gone, it’s game, set, match,….can’t over cook it, can’t under cook it……
Pat
Well, my two K4s are now shelf queens until I get them "fixed". They don't have much run time so I hope they are still good.
I went over the posts again and did not see any of our artisans saying they will accept these to be fixed. Guess I will contact them and see who will do it.
@CAPPilot posted:Well, my two K4s are now shelf queens until I get them "fixed". They don't have much run time so I hope they are still good.
I went over the posts again and did not see any of our artisans saying they will accept these to be fixed. Guess I will contact them and see who will do it.
Ron, I’m doing the fix ……I mentioned this on the very first post,…..( or so I thought I did ) …but anyways, yes, I will be fixing these and all of the other Legacy gearbox troublemakers ……..I’m flooded with work at the moment, and the K4’s are pouring in,…..contact me via profile, and we’ll get you in the que if you’d like …..The beta tester locomotive is doing fine, and I’m 100% confident I have a solid, reliable, and most importantly, a fix worthy of longevity…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Ron, I’m doing the fix ……I mentioned this on the very first post,…..( or so I thought I did ) …but anyways, yes, I will be fixing these and all of the other Legacy gearbox troublemakers ……..I’m flooded with work at the moment, and the K4’s are pouring in,…..contact me via profile, and we’ll get you in the que if you’d like …..The beta tester locomotive is doing fine, and I’m 100% confident I have a solid, reliable, and most importantly, a fix worthy of longevity…..
Pat
Yeah, the fix will happen. When things are figured out, and other projects end I'll be sending whatever needs fixing like my H10 as that is the for sure one that needs fixing.
I woke up this morning with a delightful cold kicking my behind, so I haven't done much today. Maybe tomorrow if I feel better I'll see about looking if I can see anything in the K4 with the Long Haul Tender. Like I said though, if I don't feel I can handle the taking apart, I won't.
Also, fellas,….there’s another competent machinist that’s contacted me offline that has been following this thread as well,….he’s investigating the Mike’s and so far he’s not seeing a fat bushing holding that worm wheel on center like we’d want …..still early in the diagnosis, so stay tuned, and nobody panic just yet,…..if he feels these need a fix, I’ll get the model number he’s working on, and Dave can correlate this into the list….if these are a problem, I’ll develop a similar fix as the K4’s ……
Pat
Great to hear, Pat! Bless your buddy.
Whatever the case, it’ll help me decide what to do with my Mikado.
@harmonyards posted:Ron, I’m doing the fix ……Pat
Pat, Thanks. I'll contact you.
Ok boys & girls, ….I’ve had some great correspondences with a buddy & fellow machinist in regards to the Mikados, ……specifically, the 2012 model year issue,….after some careful measurements, and some back & forth, these Mikados have the same set up as the K4s’s …..so in other words, the Mikes could potentially suffer the same fate as the K4’s ……again, our example for inspection is a 2012 model……later on, I’ll get some pics of the inspected model, and post up findings…..
Let’s jump back for a second, and talk about where this started, and what I feel is going on, and hopefully shed some light for folks,…..when we looked at a couple K4s’s, that were already damaged, what I noticed is the bushing they used to keep the worm wheel on track in the center where it belongs, can literally dig itself into the intermediate shaft bushing. ….I believe both the spacer bushing and the shaft bushing eat one another, not just a one sided game ……the combination of wear is what results in the shaft walk…….from an engineering stand point, the intermediate shaft bushing can not withstand being attacked from a side load….it’s strength is only in the shaft riding inside of it on a thin film of lubricant……in a nutshell, and to put it in layman’s terms, the shaft spacer and the shaft bushing are eating one another…..
Dave, can you add the 2012 Mikes to the fail list?….please?…😉
Pat
The only outlier being. It seems the k4 is the only model seeing catastrophic damage?. Lionel has had multiple reruns of Mike's every few years.
I would like to think these Mike's would be showing up with grinding gearboxes by now.
While there's no question the design is poor. Is it possible that the composition of the intermediate shaft bushing is simply too soft? Thus resulting in the failure your describing, as well as the excessive bushing wear I experienced on my K4.
I literally had bronze filings on the side of my k4 chassis.
I'm not questioning anything your telling us Pat. Rather, I'm just praying for a miracle.
Has anyone oppened up one of the 2021 light mikados? I have one but I'm not sure how to go about opening it up or how easy it would be.
@RickO posted:The only outlier being. It seems the k4 is the only model seeing catastrophic damage?. Lionel has had multiple reruns of Mike's every few years.
I would like to think these Mike's would be showing up with grinding gearboxes by now.
While there's no question the design is poor. Is it possible that the composition of the intermediate shaft bushing is simply too soft? Thus resulting in the failure your describing, as well as the excessive bushing wear I experienced on my K4.
I literally had bronze filings on the side of my k4 chassis.
I'm not questioning anything your telling us Pat. Rather, I'm just praying for a miracle.
I’m just pointing out the obvious Rick, ….yes it’s quite possible the K4’s suffer an ill fate from metallurgy, however, the fixes I’m proposing are minimalistic, not invasive at all, only requiring a trip to and from…..if the potential for a future failure is there, I’m going to make note of it on here, and all of y’all can decide for yourselves what to do, or not …..it’s a case by case study, with some of the brightest minds outside of manufacturing…….( not me, I’m just the wrench 🤣🤣🤣) …..anyways, my fix isn’t expensive, and it will prevent issues in the future…..as noted, there’s already quite a family of locomotives where the folks at the big L have installed a much larger spacer, and those engines require no actions…the entire thread is subject to interpretation, so take away what y’all want or don’t want,….if I see a potential issue, I’m gonna call it out,….
Pat
@RickO posted:The only outlier being. It seems the k4 is the only model seeing catastrophic damage?. Lionel has had multiple reruns of Mike's every few years.
I would like to think these Mike's would be showing up with grinding gearboxes by now.
While there's no question the design is poor. Is it possible that the composition of the intermediate shaft bushing is simply too soft? Thus resulting in the failure your describing, as well as the excessive bushing wear I experienced on my K4.
I literally had bronze filings on the side of my k4 chassis.
I'm not questioning anything your telling us Pat. Rather, I'm just praying for a miracle.
Also Rick, please don’t take any of what I replied the wrong way,…..you’re one the fellas that brought this issue into the lime light, so your input is not only valuable, it’s depended on,….😉……in a nutshell, I’ll present the facts I find, and every one can decide for themselves what’s right …..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Also Rick, please don’t take any of what I replied the wrong way,
Pat
Not at all Pat!
I'm just thankful we have talented folks like yourself on this forum. That can fix/ repair /upgrade these toys. In most cases, better than new.
Your an asset to the hobby as well as the forum.
@naresar posted:Has anyone oppened up one of the 2021 light mikados? I have one but I'm not sure how to go about opening it up or how easy it would be.
I have one of the brand new Pacific's that I opened and every thing looked good.
check my original reply HERE
based off of this I would hope that this issue was eventually taken care of but Pat is working to find out where the time period is where this issue started up until it was taken care of.
@zhubl posted:I have one of the brand new Pacific's that I opened and every thing looked good.
check my original reply HERE
based off of this I would think that this issue was eventually taken care of but Pat is working to find out where the time period is where this issue started up until it was taken care of.
One would think, but don’t take anything as gospel till the fat lady sings…..change your reply from “ you think “ to “ you hope” …..let’s just present the facts on this thread,….we can’t thank you enough for opening your new Pacific,…..that puts that particular model to bed once and for all,….last we’d want to do is cloud up the thread with a bunch of innuendos and speculations,….at the present, we’re just picking off those locomotives that either are a problem, or could potentially have a problem based on what gear box design we see inside….no guessing here,…it’s kinda working in this direction: they’re all guilty until proven innocent….😉
Pat
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