Lionel postwar history help!

I think it was just a matter of Lionel wanting splashy colors on the locomotives. For the Jersey Central and Lehigh Valley, none of the paint schemes Lionel used were accurate. 

Perhaps READING was not a willing participant...

Sam Jumper posted:

I think it was just a matter of Lionel wanting splashy colors on the locomotives. For the Jersey Central and Lehigh Valley, none of the paint schemes Lionel used were accurate. 

That's certainly a possibility, because at that point in time they were making toys more than models, but there were a few liveries that they did produce that were no more spashy than Reading's. It's a shame the list of Lionel "insiders" who could answer such questions has all but disappeared.

They made the RUTLAND cars - perhaps the colors of READING might be redundant...?

Its a matter of economics. Many railroads and related companies paid to have their names on toy trains. They would contribute large sums to mold purchases and other equipment. The B&O and Gulf oil invested a ton of money to Gilbert. It wasn't like today where the companies want the toy manufacturers to pay them to use their name.

Tin

Grampstrains posted:

Lionel did make a Reading FM Trainmaster prototype but it didn't spark enough interest for a production run.

Where is this Reading prototype? Lost probably? If so it could be the only Lionel postwar model with the Reading name on it. But hey. For all we know there could've been more in the beginning stages that wasn't made for whatever reason.

Cool. So technically speaking there is at least one piece of Lionel that wears the Reading roadname. Thanks for clearing that up.

If anybody is interested; the Reading Railroad was a split of the the Philadelphia and Reading Railroad & Mining Company during the 1920's. There were 2 separate names used by the Reading Railroad; for freight it was Reading Lines and for passenger it was Reading Company. You can thank an oil barren(I think, not 100 percent positive, it was J.D. Rockefeller) for busting up the Philadelphia & Reading Railway & Mining Company during the 1920's.

Lee Fritz

Wasn't the Reading Company executive membership rather "tight" with the money ?   Seems I read this somewhere.  

Grampstrains posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Grampstrains posted:

Lionel did make a Reading FM Trainmaster prototype but it didn't spark enough interest for a production run.

Where is this Reading prototype? Lost probably? If so it could be the only Lionel postwar model with the Reading name on it. But hey. For all we know there could've been more in the beginning stages that wasn't made for whatever reason.

The Reading FM Prototype is now in  the hands of a private collector.  A lot of the Lionel Archives was sold during the 1960's and a lot of East coast collectors bought them up.   There is a picture of the engine in "Lionel Vol. 5 - The Archives" by McComas & Tuohy.

  The engine is painted black with yellow handrails.

Here you go - Vol 5. page 12

Dan Padova posted:

Wasn't the Reading Company executive membership rather "tight" with the money ?   Seems I read this somewhere.  

Dan, I have no idea what the Reading RR executives did with the money. Have you checked out the Reading Company Technical & Historical Society who has a base in Hamburg PA? They might be able to answer your question for you.

I am the grandson of a Reading Company employee who died in 1992. Further information about the Reading Railroad is that they were bought up by Conrail in 1976(sometime after April, I think)however not all Reading Railroad equipment went into Conrail, for some reason there was about 15 to 25 percent of Reading's rolling stock that went to private owners somehow.

Lee Fritz

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

So I was doing some thinking recently. Lionel made models of the Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, Jersey Central, Erie, and Lackawanna roads. However they made nothing in the Reading road name during the postwar era. Is there a reason for this? Did Lionel's executives not favor the Reading compared to other roads? 

Was there a legitimate reason as to why they didn't include the Reading, other than the more plausible answer that they never thought of them? 

I don't have an authoritative answer to that question.  But I always assumed that it was because the RDG was a very busy but territorially small railroad that was mostly limited to southeastern Pennsylvania.  Would Reading equipment have had nationwide appeal?  I don't know, and my guess is that Lionel management didn't want to take the chance.

As it happens, I was born in RDG country (Mount Carmel, PA), and would have welcomed more Reading equipment in the postwar era.  Today, I have a RDG T-1 and RDG FM TrainMaster.  In fact, I just bought a modern Reading extended-vision caboose at a train show over the weekend, and I'm always adding RDG cars to the roster.  Reading equipment still isn't common, but at least there's more available today.

I'd still like to see someone produce an affordable (with emphasis on the affordable) RDG I-10 class steam locomotive.

Balshis posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

So I was doing some thinking recently. Lionel made models of the Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, Jersey Central, Erie, and Lackawanna roads. However they made nothing in the Reading road name during the postwar era. Is there a reason for this? Did Lionel's executives not favor the Reading compared to other roads? 

Was there a legitimate reason as to why they didn't include the Reading, other than the more plausible answer that they never thought of them? 

I don't have an authoritative answer to that question.  But I always assumed that it was because the RDG was a very busy but territorially small railroad that was mostly limited to southeastern Pennsylvania.  Would Reading equipment have had nationwide appeal?  I don't know, and my guess is that Lionel management didn't want to take the chance.

As it happens, I was born in RDG country (Mount Carmel, PA), and would have welcomed more Reading equipment in the postwar era.  Today, I have a RDG T-1 and RDG FM TrainMaster.  In fact, I just bought a modern Reading extended-vision caboose at a train show over the weekend, and I'm always adding RDG cars to the roster.  Reading equipment still isn't common, but at least there's more available today.

I'd still like to see someone produce an affordable (with emphasis on the affordable) RDG I-10 class steam locomotive.

I found out that the Reading Railroad operated in 5 different states during it's lifetime. The parent company for the Reading Railroad was the Philadelphia & Reading Railway & Mining Company with it's headquarters in the 1800's (from 1833 until 1920 something) in Philadelphia PA. At one time the Philadelphia & Reading Railway & Mining Company was financially the number one railway in the USA(1890's, approx. 1890 to 1900). During that time the Pennsy was either number 2 or 3 in the USA.

The slightly more modern railroad; the Reading Lines & Reading Company operated from the 1920's until 1976 out of Reading PA.

The NYC (New York Central) became number one sometime in the 20th Century. I am not an NYC fan so I don't know the dates.

Lee Fritz

Don't forget that the Reading was nationally known thanks to Monopoly . . .

Lionel Trains Inc. eventually did make the Reading FM in 1993, which was a good engine, but it was a slow seller due to its plain colors.

Bright colors usually attract more attention to a product. That or a pedigree behind its prototype. Still, even the 773 Hudson, with its pedigree, was not a good seller in 1950 because it came at the wrong time when Lionel consumers were into flashy F-3 diesels and shiny aluminum cars.

Remember, Reading used the solid green scheme on hood units. EMD and Alco covered wagons were dark green with light green band. The "modern" Reading scheme of yellow and green wasn't introduced until 1961 on GP30's, and then spread to other units.

I guess the black 610 Erie switcher and Erie A-A Alco's are exception to the flashy Lionel diesels theory. 

I have personally held and read a letter from the Reading dated around the 1945-46 time period petitioning Lionel to build a T-1, a builders photo was also attached to the letter. The Reading was asking Lionel to produce the model even before the locomotives were completed.

It really was incredible how many companies approached Lionel to work alongside them and have their names on Lionel product. Lionel also received quite a bit of help from other companies with help on design, photos, etc. 

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

So I was doing some thinking recently. Lionel made models of the Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, Jersey Central, Erie, and Lackawanna roads. However they made nothing in the Reading road name during the postwar era. Is there a reason for this? Did Lionel's executives not favor the Reading compared to other roads? 

Was there a legitimate reason as to why they didn't include the Reading, other than the more plausible answer that they never thought of them? 

Just some historical insight; this a story from the American Flyer Collectors Club magazine The Collector. 

The toy train companies would accept payment for having different roadnames on their models.  Maury Romer, Gilbert's chief of sales had Shell Oil in and said that it would be $250 for them to make a shell oil tank car.  They hesitated.  Maury said he had to go down the hall and check with the Sunoco people who were also in that day.  Maury went for a cup of coffee and waited a few minutes and returned to the Shell people who were now happy to pay the $250.  Sunoco of course was never really there.

Lou N

Notch 6 posted:

I have personally held and read a letter from the Reading dated around the 1945-46 time period petitioning Lionel to build a T-1, a builders photo was also attached to the letter. The Reading was asking Lionel to produce the model even before the locomotives were completed.

It really was incredible how many companies approached Lionel to work alongside them and have their names on Lionel product. Lionel also received quite a bit of help from other companies with help on design, photos, etc. 

Is that so? So the Reading had wanted Lionel to make a product of one of their models. Interesting.

palallin posted:

Don't forget that the Reading was nationally known thanks to Monopoly . . .

You are correct! Also the Pennsylvania RR was on the Monopoly board as one of the other 3 railroads, I think that Short-line was a Monopoly RR as well. Without having a Monopoly board in front of me I don't remember who else was listed on the board game. 

Lee Fritz

phillyreading posted:

palallin posted:

Don't forget that the Reading was nationally known thanks to Monopoly . . .

You are correct! Also the Pennsylvania RR was on the Monopoly board as one of the other 3 railroads, I think that Short-line was a Monopoly RR as well. Without having a Monopoly board in front of me I don't remember who else was listed on the board game. 

Lee Fritz

B&O was the other one.

Rusty

The toy train companies would accept payment for having different roadnames on their models.  Maury Romer, Gilbert's chief of sales had Shell Oil in and said that it would be $250 for them to make a shell oil tank car.  They hesitated.  Maury said he had to go down the hall and check with the Sunoco people who were also in that day.  Maury went for a cup of coffee and waited a few minutes and returned to the Shell people who were now happy to pay the $250.  Sunoco of course was never really there.

From the various material I've read over the years. it's my impression that Gilbert was more aggressive about being paid than Lionel was. Some folks have written that American Flyer trains tend to have a lot of generic decoration because of it.

Rusty Traque posted:

phillyreading posted:

palallin posted:

Don't forget that the Reading was nationally known thanks to Monopoly . . .

You are correct! Also the Pennsylvania RR was on the Monopoly board as one of the other 3 railroads, I think that Short-line was a Monopoly RR as well. Without having a Monopoly board in front of me I don't remember who else was listed on the board game. 

Lee Fritz

B&O was the other one.

Rusty

So the 4 railroads were; Pennsy, Reading, B &O and Short-line. That seems correct to me.

Some additional info; Reading had their start in the 1830's as the Philadelphia & Reading Railways in Philadelphia PA.

Lee Fritz

C W Burfle posted:

The toy train companies would accept payment for having different roadnames on their models.  Maury Romer, Gilbert's chief of sales had Shell Oil in and said that it would be $250 for them to make a shell oil tank car.  They hesitated.  Maury said he had to go down the hall and check with the Sunoco people who were also in that day.  Maury went for a cup of coffee and waited a few minutes and returned to the Shell people who were now happy to pay the $250.  Sunoco of course was never really there.

From the various material I've read over the years. it's my impression that Gilbert was more aggressive about being paid than Lionel was. Some folks have written that American Flyer trains tend to have a lot of generic decoration because of it.

C.W.

Isn't it amazing that we have gone from an era when companies and railroads thought it was good advertising to have their logos on model trains to an era where, for example,  MTH had to defend themselves from UP and the City of New York for trademark infringement???

Lou N

Lou N posted:

C.W.

Isn't it amazing that we have gone from an era when companies and railroads thought it was good advertising to have their logos on model trains to an era where, for example,  MTH had to defend themselves from UP and the City of New York for trademark infringement???

Lou N

 

Actually, MTH took on the the case against the UP regarding their licensing fees and draconian approval process for the benefit of all the model railroad manufacturers.

Rusty

Gotta give MTH a thumbs up for that - that action by Mike gave me a new respect for him and there are a bunch of purple boxes in my home because of it!

Isn't it amazing that we have gone from an era when companies and railroads thought it was good advertising to have their logos on model trains to an era where, for example,  MTH had to defend themselves from UP and the City of New York for trademark infringement???

Yes, but we also pay good money to purchase clothing with brand name logos. I'm old enough to remember when clothing with logos were giveaways and not seen that often. Generally I won't wear anything with a logo. It can be hard to find plain baseball caps around here.