Lionel Prices

Charles Ro has the Thomas set for about $150.  For a few hundred more you get lots of track, buildings and rolling stock.  Maybe a second LionChief loco from the Thomas world.  Not cheap, but not $1,000 either.  HO is not inexpensive.  For command locos with sounds, figure close to $300.  DCC setup to give you some of the command control in that Thomas set (LionChief) is a minimum of $200.  Same prices go for N gauge, pretty much.  Not an inexpensive hobby, but a time intensive hobby with many products that retain some of their value should you lose interest.  Try selling a 10 year old iPad .

@Landsteiner posted:

Charles Ro has the Thomas set for about $150.  For a few hundred more you get lots of track, buildings and rolling stock.  Maybe a second LionChief loco from the Thomas world.  Not cheap, but not $1,000 either.  HO is not inexpensive.  For command locos with sounds, figure close to $300.  DCC setup to give you some of the command control in that Thomas set (LionChief) is a minimum of $200.  Same prices go for N gauge, pretty much.  Not an inexpensive hobby, but a time intensive hobby with many products that retain some of their value should you lose interest.  Try selling a 10 year old iPad .

I'm talking about nice train sets not the toy set. If the parent wants a real looking set that is command. HO is by far cheaper and you get more bang for the buck. The other thing is most if not all of the set up parts are available in O not so much.

@ThatGuy posted:

I'm talking about nice train sets not the toy set. If the parent wants a real looking set that is command. HO is by far cheaper and you get more bang for the buck. The other thing is most if not all of the set up parts are available in O not so much.

Do you mean a ready-to-run set with command control? Those have always been expensive

https://www.lionel.com/product...cc-sd80-7203-6-31993

https://www.lionel.com/product...et-sd90-9108-6-30026

this next one isn't even ready-to-run:

https://www.lionel.com/product...cc-gp30-2204-6-31749

a few other prices you might want to take into account are increasing costs of labor and shipping, as well as inflation.

You'd probably be better off piecing together the nice stuff over time, and only sticking to items that you really want.

@ThatGuy posted:

While I love my trains, and I do run everything from pre war to post and beyond. The prices are now out of hand. I had a friend this year want to buy his son his first remote controlled train set. Off we went to the train store, and the sticker shock came. For any set that is really nice we are talking in excess of 500 dollars and that includes only a circle of track so the train can chase its tail! After figuring out a few extra cars and track we topped one grand. He put the stuff back and purchased an I pad that was less money and could teach his son. This I fear goes on more than I would like to think about, mean while Lionel's new catalog is getting to the point were a small loan will be needed. Instead of prices either being flat or even down a point or two we now have engines pushing 2100 hundred dollars. The market just gets smaller and smaller or people go to HO, where at least the prices are much easier to take or service and parts are not an issue in most cases.

Face it Lionel has no real competition. As long as this is the case , a lot of you will go down the path of being told what trains you buy , what controls you use, what track to run on, and what current use,  with out correcting, bad trucks, track issues bad electronics!

@The Pullman posted:

Do you mean a ready-to-run set with command control? Those have always been expensive

https://www.lionel.com/product...cc-sd80-7203-6-31993

https://www.lionel.com/product...et-sd90-9108-6-30026

this next one isn't even ready-to-run:

https://www.lionel.com/product...cc-gp30-2204-6-31749

a few other prices you might want to take into account are increasing costs of labor and shipping, as well as inflation.

You'd probably be better off piecing together the nice stuff over time, and only sticking to items that you really want.

Yup and right on all counts. He was just turned off and that was that. Shame once they are gone they are gone forever.

I think if you check out nice HO sets with DCC the prices will be similar to the Lionel sets.  If HO is cheaper, it's not by much.  This is a hobby that is, unlike video games, about either collecting or building.  The value comes not with the purchase alone, but the creative possibilities that can follow.  Never been inexpensive, never will be, for all sorts of reasons.  I can assure you that HO hobbyists complain about prices too.  Everyone wants what they want at the price they want. Reality intrudes.  So one matches one's desires with one's capabilities.  The second hand market, traditional size O gauge three rail, etc. are reasonable in price and provide some folks with great pleasure.  These toys aren't housing, transportation or medical care, much less food, and all are expensive these days, particularly for people of limited earning potential.

On second thought, which of the following hobbies are cheaper than model trains?  Classic cars.  Boating.  Gun collecting. International travel.  Second homes.  Golf. Tennis. Cheapest hobby is a second job .  Less fun is my take.

@ThatGuy posted:

While I love my trains, and I do run everything from pre war to post and beyond. The prices are now out of hand. I had a friend this year want to buy his son his first remote controlled train set. Off we went to the train store, and the sticker shock came. For any set that is really nice we are talking in excess of 500 dollars and that includes only a circle of track so the train can chase its tail! After figuring out a few extra cars and track we topped one grand. He put the stuff back and purchased an I pad that was less money and could teach his son. This I fear goes on more than I would like to think about, mean while Lionel's new catalog is getting to the point were a small loan will be needed. Instead of prices either being flat or even down a point or two we now have engines pushing 2100 hundred dollars. The market just gets smaller and smaller or people go to HO, where at least the prices are much easier to take or service and parts are not an issue in most cases.

What's out of hand is inflation, the highest we have experienced in 40 years. Prices for everything have skyrocketed. Trains are not immune from that.

Pat

@Landsteiner posted:

I think if you check out nice HO sets with DCC the prices will be similar to the Lionel sets.  If HO is cheaper, it's not by much.  This is a hobby that is, unlikely video games, about either collecting or building.  The value comes not with the purchase alone, but the creative possibilities that can follow.  Never been inexpensive, never will be, for all sorts of reasons.  I can assure you that HO hobbyists complain about prices too.  Everyone wants what they want at the price they want. Reality intrudes.  So one matches one's desires with one's capabilities.  The second hand market, traditional size O gauge three rail, etc. are reasonable in price and provide some folks with great pleasure.  These toys aren't housing, transportation or medical care, much less food, and all are expensive these days, particularly for people of limited earning potential.

I have looked at HO just to look, and prices for nice engines around 500 to 600 yes a much smaller engine but still cheaper. I hate what is going on, I started in this hobby and its not a good feeling.

@irish rifle posted:

What's out of hand is inflation, the highest we have experienced in 40 years. Prices for everything have skyrocketed. Trains are not immune from that.

Pat

Very true, but train prices have been on the march long before this. But you are right.

@ThatGuy posted:

While I love my trains, and I do run everything from pre war to post and beyond. The prices are now out of hand. I had a friend this year want to buy his son his first remote controlled train set. Off we went to the train store, and the sticker shock came. For any set that is really nice we are talking in excess of 500 dollars and that includes only a circle of track so the train can chase its tail! After figuring out a few extra cars and track we topped one grand. He put the stuff back and purchased an I pad that was less money and could teach his son. This I fear goes on more than I would like to think about, mean while Lionel's new catalog is getting to the point were a small loan will be needed. Instead of prices either being flat or even down a point or two we now have engines pushing 2100 hundred dollars. The market just gets smaller and smaller or people go to HO, where at least the prices are much easier to take or service and parts are not an issue in most cases.

We have already been through this on another thread. You freely admitted that dealers are having great sales. That means that Lionel is having a great year as well. Lionel's catalog is big, bold and confident. Prices are what they are based on what it costs to produce the trains and how much people are willing to pay for them. I am confident that the smart people at Lionel have priced those items accordingly.

Lionel and the hobby are doing great!

How old is the son? I'm 66 & just bought a Area 51 LionChief set for $352.99 delivered & glad I did. FasTrack straight 4 packs for $16.49.

Being mostly a New York Central collector, I don't mind paying the price for prototypically correct locomotives that I like. I can do without an Atlantic and an 0-6-0 that are not specifically NYC prototypical, so after a heavy load in 2020 and 2021 with the Niagara, the Hudsons and the Mohawk, I'm looking forward to giving my wallet a breather.

Perhaps with the prices being what they are and continuing to go up, I won't be able to be as quick to pull out the credit card in the future and will have to wait for those things I really want. I'm lucky to have enough to keep me entertained.

@NYC Fan posted:

Being mostly a New York Central collector, I don't mind paying the price for prototypically correct locomotives that I like. I can do without an Atlantic and an 0-6-0 that are not specifically NYC prototypical,

Hey Skip, I'm considering the 0-6-0. What are the issues?

@NYC Fan posted:

Being mostly a New York Central collector, I don't mind paying the price for prototypically correct locomotives that I like. I can do without an Atlantic and an 0-6-0 that are not specifically NYC prototypical, so after a heavy load in 2020 and 2021 with the Niagara, the Hudsons and the Mohawk, I'm looking forward to giving my wallet a breather.

Perhaps with the prices being what they are and continuing to go up, I won't be able to be as quick to pull out the credit card in the future and will have to wait for those things I really want. I'm lucky to have enough to keep me entertained.

Mr Muffin as a reasonable Lay A Buy program that eases the issue of having a big bill for a locomotive all at once. Perhaps other dealers have a similar program? I used MR Muffins Lay A Buy for my locomotive purchases.

I took a look at the 2022 Lionel catalog Friday AM, purchased a Kato N Scale starter set Friday night.

@Jeff T posted:

I took a look at the 2022 Lionel catalog Friday AM, purchased a Kato N Scale starter set Friday night.

Will it be as much fun?

I bought the Lionel Lionchief RTR Space Launch (NASA) Set last March via an Early Buy at $ 289.00 plus tax & delivery. Just got delivered, looks great by the way.

Anyway, 2022 catalog price is $ 449.00, but at least one forum sponsor sells it for $ 339.00. Nice discount off of MSRP.

Or, if your kid wants a Sony PS5, they are retail at $ 499.00 if you can find them. $ 800.00 plus on the bay.

@Madockawando posted:

Will it be as much fun?

As one without a layout, heck ya!!! In my home office on a credenza!!

And if you hit a train show there are tables full of postwar stuff begging for buyers.

@Dougklink posted:

And if you hit a train show there are tables full of postwar stuff begging for buyers.

Operator quality Postwar is selling by the pound. However, collecting postwar is not the same hobby as running LionChief and Legacy locomotives and building a layout to run them on. There is overlap, but crashing postwar prices does not mean the hobby is in trouble. New trains are hot, postwar trains are not. Sadly, many of the people who had them as kids have passed a way and the nostalgia factor with young people isn’t there anymore. The other “problem” is that postwar is virtually indestructible so supply remains high. The supply of postwar trains will out last all of us!

I recently picked up the PRR set linked to above with the GP30 and die cast coal cars for around $350.  Command control, great detail, and great sound.  Complete sets that are lightly used are a great option.

Going by friends who are very much into HO, this isn't strictly a Lionel thing. If you look at companies like Hornby, Bachmann, etc. the prices are climbing. They've ranted about those guys just in the past few months. Plus, inflation seems to be a thing with almost everything post 2020, from our foods to our fuels.

And you got to remember the market in the O gauge realm is still flooded with older sets that can still get you what you want at mostly bargain prices, especially if you don't care about owning the latest technology. Unlike TV's, computers and smartphones, the great thing about these trains from the past, even ones in the last 20-30 years, is that they are still running around in family's homes today because their tech has held up so well.

In other words, in the model train world, you gotta shop smarter not faster.

If you would like to see if prices really were "better" in the past play around with this inflation calculator:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You'll soon see that high end Lionel products were also expensive in the 1950s. Yes, a modern scale F3 is more expensive than a postwar F3, adjusted for inflation, but the modern F3 has more advanced details and electronics. Compare straight traditional trains from the postwar era to now. You'll be shocked to see, adjusted for inflation, a postwar 6464 boxcar cost just as much as a modern version.

@Lou1985 posted:

If you would like to see if prices really were "better" in the past play around with this inflation calculator:

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You'll soon see that high end Lionel products were also expensive in the 1950s. Yes, a modern scale F3 is more expensive than a postwar F3, adjusted for inflation, but the modern F3 has more advanced details and electronics. Compare straight traditional trains from the postwar era to now. You'll be shocked to see, adjusted for inflation, a postwar 6464 boxcar cost just as much as a modern version.

You missed the whole point, trains built in the past had a high price and yes in 1950's dollars but they had been built in the United States and in a factory were people had been paid a living wage. Also today's manufacturing processes are so much cheaper. What ever you say, its your money.

@Madockawando posted:

Operator quality Postwar is selling by the pound. However, collecting postwar is not the same hobby as running LionChief and Legacy locomotives and building a layout to run them on. There is overlap, but crashing postwar prices does not mean the hobby is in trouble. New trains are hot, postwar trains are not. Sadly, many of the people who had them as kids have passed a way and the nostalgia factor with young people isn’t there anymore. The other “problem” is that postwar is virtually indestructible so supply remains high. The supply of postwar trains will out last all of us!

2022 (today) - 1945 (Baby-Boom start) = 77.  Do the prodigy of today's 77-year-olds want the post-war Lionel trains?  Sadly, these legacy layouts are at best still being used by the 77 year-old but there is no interest  from their following generations, the layouts are not being used and are getting dusty, or, they are dismantled, in a box, in the basement.  These 1945-born Boomers were 10 years-old in 1955 (Lionel's hayday 'ish').  Fundamentals tell me there will be more-and-more supply-side availability for the post-war Lionel gems we love and the not enough buyers.  The prices will continue to drop.  A trusty ZW, some tubular track and an abundance of post-war goods will be great for old and new hobbyists alike wanting to enter the hobby at a (what is to me) a reasonable price-point.

Oh, and for my American friends, I'm in Canada, so take Lionel's 2022 catalog price and add 30-40% due to the $CDN-$USD exchange rate + some shipping...................... and you'll calculate what we Canucks pay.  🤦‍♂️

@jstraw124 posted:

I recently picked up the PRR set linked to above with the GP30 and die cast coal cars for around $350.  Command control, great detail, and great sound.  Complete sets that are lightly used are a great option.

That is a very nice set. Congratulations on your find!

@RickO posted:

Hey Skip, I'm considering the 0-6-0. What are the issues?

That hood over the headlight really bothers me. Not the classic NYC look. If it comes out and it's not there, I may go for one. Same with the Atlantic. For those prices, get it right,

Even a RTR set at $ 500.00 is still cheaper than buying your kid the latest iPhone 13 at $ 900.00 or more.

@Dougklink posted:

And if you hit a train show there are tables full of postwar stuff begging for buyers.

I would LOVE to have trains that were as simple, reliable, and more affordable.  Unfortunately for me, what brought me back to trains was command control.  With all the problems some have had and the prices of modern electronics, I could see going back to postwar and block control.

Then there's their new warranty policy...ALL warranty work goes back to Lionel Central, not your local authorized service station.  And, oh, BTW, many local service stations (a.k.a., LHS) are gone, anyway.

Which means pack it up and ship it out...and you probably will want to pay for shipping insurance of your newly acquired treasure.  Shipping prices ain't cheap, brother.  And, shipping...in both directions...can further 'compromise' the integrity of your item once back in your hands. 

In the 1950's...when I received from Santa my beloved diesel freight set with 4 operating freight cars, I remember that Dad and I made a trip to Superior Lock and Electric (Washington, D.C.) for a warranty repair.  I also remember that the repair was completed while we waited...drooling over more shelves and display cases to pass the minutes...purchasing a used tank car to complement my earlier Scout set to make the trip downtown more worthwhile...and then safely carrying my (our) treasures back home on the back seat of our 1949 Buick Super with Dynaflow transmission (having an acceleration sound I will NEVER forget to my dying day!).  Ah, those were, indeed, the 'good 'ol days' for this old phart!

I guess it's not the same for everyone.  But for me, each new Lionel catalog actually erodes some of the excitement and anticipation I once had for the hobby.   ...Which in NO way erodes my love for the hobby and the treasures I already have with which to enjoy it.   Enough is enough, after all.

TEHO, of course...

KD

I marvel at the variety and range of price points that O gauge offers the hobby. New locomotives, it appears, range from $200 to $2,500. No, it's not a cheap hobby for anyone, but there's a pretty broad range, and it's never been a cheap hobby. Sure, an entry-level Lionchief engine doesn't have the goodies as a Vision Line verison, but Lionel is serving multiple buyers, much like GM offering a $20,000 base sedan and a $100,000 luxury car, truck, or SUV. Other hobby industries like RVing and firearms have multiple price points. Same for youth sports. I regularly see parents spending $300 - $500 on a baseball or softball bat for Little Johnny and Little Jane and thousands for ice hockey, gymnastics, and other activities while other parents opt for lower-cost, "rec league" levels.

So, I don't see Lionel or model railroading as much different than other industries. I'm really interested to see the impact of these three dynamics, some mentioned above, on new product prices:

1. Widely predicted glut of used Postwar era engines and rolling stock coming to market as boomers downsize or pass on. Why make new semi-scale or O27 sized gondolas, box cars, and 2-bay hoppers with so many on or coming to the used market?

2. Ability to upgrade near-modern engines rather than replacing them. Sure, a new Legacy or LC+2 comes with more features, but will many simply opt to, for example, drop $150 for a Cruise-M upgrade to a 2000 TMCC engine? Maybe those PW era locomotives predicted to hit the used market will provide chassis for electronics upgrades as the prices for new locomotives go up.

3. This is a physical, real-world hobby that teaches practical skills. Video games have been a real competitor for 40 years. Now, virtual reality has stepped that up a notch. Will new generations have the patience to run wires and build and operate real, 3D model worlds or will they opt for virtual worlds?

OP: While I understand your friend’s initial sticker shock, my suggestion would be to encourage him to purchase used. We've all experienced champagne dreams on a beer budget yet we find ways to acquire fun toys and make lasting experiences. As a kid all of my Lionel trains were used to start out with and I wasn’t scarred for life. Instead it motivated me to enjoy the hobby and find (earn) a way to get new stuff later on. My grade school and junior high kids play with our Lionel and MTH trains every week. The younger ones even prefer the MPC dummy units that they can push and add their other toys to the cars without fear of damaging the nicer trains.

If your friend is truly interested help him find a way. No one every succeeded by picking up their ball and going home.

@raising4daughters posted:

Ability to upgrade near-modern engines rather than replacing them. Sure, a new Legacy or LC+2 comes with more features, but will many simply opt to, for example, drop $150 for a Cruise-M upgrade to a 2000 TMCC engine? Maybe those PW era locomotives predicted to hit the used market will provide chassis for electronics upgrades as the prices for new locomotives go up.

Add the Chuff-Generator and the Super-Chuffer II and that early TMCC steamer has a lot of Legacy-like features.   4-chuffs/rev, proper chuffing smoke, smoke at idle, Rule-17 LED headlight, automatic cab light control, and even automatic ground lights.

This thread theme has come up with every catalog release from every manufacturer since I've been on the forum starting nearly 15 years ago.  In market economy prices are determined by the seller and those on the buying side have a choice not to purchase.

Regardless of these prices many will purchase.

@dkdkrd posted:

I guess it's not the same for everyone.  But for me, each new Lionel catalog actually erodes some of the excitement and anticipation I once had for the hobby.

KD

KD,

Sorry to hear that.  How does it do so?  There's plenty of excitement in this new catalog.  For youngsters so many themed sets.  All different kinds.  For the scale group a very nice NW 1218.  A good array of LC 2.0+ for traditional size lovers.

But perhaps nothing for you.

Maybe as we get older it takes more to rekindle that excitement?

What would strike your fancy enough today to make it happen?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

KD,

Sorry to hear that.  How does it do so?  There's plenty of excitement in this new catalog.  For youngsters so many themed sets.  All different kinds.  For the scale group a very nice NW 1218.  A good array of LC 2.0+ for traditional size lovers.

But perhaps nothing for you.

Maybe as we get older it takes more to rekindle that excitement?

What would strike your fancy enough today to make it happen?

Mike

I’m not sure I could get really excited nowadays as I did when Lionel Trains were fresh and new to me forty years and more ago. Honestly, as I tell my wife frequently, things that used to get me excited in general fail to do so anymore. Too much water under the bridge, I suppose. Sad but true.

That said, all I ever wanted from Lionel were nicely constructed locomotives with lights, whistle/horn (and smoke on steamers.) Like they made up through the 1980s.
I find all the other features a distraction and it pains me greatly to pay for accoutrements I don’t want and won’t use if I am able to turn them off.

I have purchased a number of engines that have these features in recent years because I really, really wanted them and so bit the cost bullet.

And since I run in conventional only, even the less expensive new offerings don’t do me any good because they are remote control only. (Yes, I do have quite a few LC+ items.)

Not complaining at all; I have more trains than I will ever need or even deserve;  just offering my opinion.  I suspect that I am not the only old guy with these feelings. Enjoy your trains, whatever kind you favor!  

@ThatGuy posted:

You missed the whole point, trains built in the past had a high price and yes in 1950's dollars but they had been built in the United States and in a factory were people had been paid a living wage. Also today's manufacturing processes are so much cheaper. What ever you say, its your money.

Dude the bulk of my collection is second hand stuff and junk I've rebuilt, so I'm not Mr. Money bags .

All I'm saying is the cost of new "traditional" style trains is about the same, adjusted for inflation. The scale stuff for sure costs more, but also sells in lower quantity, hence the higher price. But model trains aren't a necessity, so Lionel can charge whatever they want as long as people will buy it, and you know they will.

@GG1 4877 posted:

This thread theme has come up with every catalog release from every manufacturer since I've been on the forum starting nearly 15 years ago.  In market economy prices are determined by the seller and those on the buying side have a choice not to purchase.

Regardless of these prices many will purchase.

Yes, this seems to be a constant theme.

I can't think of another industry where the used market provides such a huge source of competition. With rolling stock, especially, as a semi-scale guy, I can buy (and do buy / have bought) a majority of fleet on the used market. A 6464 boxcar from the 1950s or postwar celebration re-issue from the early 2000s is similar to one made today (trucks and couplers are another subject for another thread). I've got some 70-80 y/o freight and passenger cars running around my layout and no observer knows the difference between them and modern re-issues.

Looked through the new catalog last night. Truly impressive, more on offer than ever. Prices for standard fare not bad, we don’t really collect anything electronic or phone controlled. Why? Maybe I’m getting old, but I see real value in the older stuff. My 22 year old sons learned to cut wood and drive screws when 7 by helping build the layout, learned to wire and power concepts while adding accessories when 8-12, and soldered e unit and pullmor connections through their teens. We still go to shows together, buy old stuff we like at minimal cost, and enjoy the repairs before turning on the zw’s and enjoying the new ride for an evening. Sure, they also have phones and tablets, but I know which gift taught them more useful information, and generally for far less cost. Drop the phone and break it? Done for. Drop an engine from 1950-1980? Buy a new shell and return it to action. Both were important activities, but only one continues to bring a family together in a fun activity. The only train we couldn’t repair was one with an electronic board that was fried by a voltage surge - our only disappointment so far! At least the layout splits into two mirror image self-supporting layouts for the future! Yes, the new catalog and newer electronics and features are impressive, the stuff of dreams even, but my son gave me a 1615 switcher for Christmas that was filthy and needs work. There are three men spending an hour or two today putting someone’s past “stuff of dreams” back in action. I’m not sure a $2500 Acela with remote pantograph and operating doors would have the same effect, but it is very impressive, regardless of the cost.