Lionel's Newly Delivered ES44AC's: A First Look

Swafford,

As promised here are pictures of the KCS Southern Belle. Take a good look at the inside of the motor cover............all four magnets that are supposed to be in their to keep the top on are missing. I need to contact Lionel and get a new top sent out. Second thin I noticed, maybe the is prototypical of the real ES44's is on only one, the rear Left side truck, their is a chain. The other 3 trucks don't have a chain so I am not sure if their was supposed to be a chain on all 4 trucks or just the one. 

Looking at the other engines pictured in the post, it is hard to tell if they have 1 or 3.

I did not get to fire it up as I opened it up at my parents and I did not have the Legacy Controller.

At any rate, other than the crappy QA on the top the engine, it is sharp, great colors, they do pop and it is not really all the "shiney." I notice that Lionel also they changed the way they manufacture the pilots, now unlike the Heritage units, they protected the hoses and lift iron for the knuckle appears to be built better. Thank goodness because the replacement part sells for $28.00 + shipping.

Hope you all like the pictures

Fantastic..............Thanks for posting the pictures. The KCS color scheme is one of my favorites!

Regards,

Swafford

catnap posted:

Both models look great.  The silver trucks and fuel tanks make a nice contrast, especially on the BNSF model.

I have 2 SD40s ordered and they should be the next BTO engines to get a thorough look-see. These may carry an even higher price tag since they're brand new tooling, although the SD40 is not as popular as the ES44.

Here is the prototype (It's actually an ES44DC)...

If you notice in the prototype photo, there are no MARS lights in between the number boards above the cab, while on the Lionel model they do.  That alone is enough to bother me to where I wouldn't buy it.  Another thing that stood out on the Lionel model is that the simulated bell in front of the fuel tank on the conductor's side is a different design than the one on the prototype, but that's a little less noticeable.  For those that bought these, enjoy them.

The chain on the left rear truck corresponds with the hand brake wheel on that side of the long hood.   

That's so the crew can manually set or release the brakes  It's an added detail that is not available on MTH engine.

Looks to me like there are four magnets on the engine side of radiator cover area and metal screws screwed into each corner of the radiator cover to correspond with each magnet.  Does it take a little bit of a tug to remove the cover?

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for the chain update. Appreciate the education.

Correct, the magnets are used to keep the motor cover on, but you need a set for that to function properly. The point I was making is that top cover, the areas where you see the screws,  is where magnets should also be installed to create the seal. The majority of the Diesels coming out of Lionel are designed this way  - Magnets attract and create the seal.

In this case, all 4 magnets are missing from the cover, not the engine body.  From a Production - QA person, that is a big miss and is completely inexcusable. The engine never should have made it off the factory floor like that. It should have been caught, fixed / repaired before it was boxed, shipped to the Concord, NC to Boston to NJ.

Given the price we are willing to pay that is simply bad business - just like crummy smoke units / fans over the past few years and for using cheap plastic gears in the CCI and CCII engines. Better design, better QA = less warranty repair costs. I hope Lionel is charging back their sub manufacturers for this stuff.

K

Swafford,

That was one of the reasons I purchased this one as well as the BNSF which arrives tomorrow. I did not have an of these railroads so I figured why not - besides the sticker shock  I am glad I got them. From what I am seeing the BNSF prices are already at $590 to retail at some dealers

PSU1980 posted:

Larry,

Thanks for the chain update. Appreciate the education.

Correct, the magnets are used to keep the motor cover on, but you need a set for that to function properly. The point I was making is that top cover, the areas where you see the screws,  is where magnets should also be installed to create the seal. The majority of the Diesels coming out of Lionel are designed this way  - Magnets attract and create the seal.

In this case, all 4 magnets are missing from the cover, not the engine body.  From a Production - QA person, that is a big miss and is completely inexcusable. The engine never should have made it off the factory floor like that. It should have been caught, fixed / repaired before it was boxed, shipped to the Concord, NC to Boston to NJ.

Given the price we are willing to pay that is simply bad business - just like crummy smoke units / fans over the past few years and for using cheap plastic gears in the CCI and CCII engines. Better design, better QA = less warranty repair costs. I hope Lionel is charging back their sub manufacturers for this stuff.

K

 

 

The magnets are not in the Top covers of the ES44's,  they are in the body.  They use the screws in the tops as the metal that attracts to the body magnets.  I see the magnets in your pic.  There are not suppose to be magnets in the top part.  All my ES44s from the previous run were the same.

Your model has no QA problems.  It should have 1 chain and the top is correct.

Thanks for the information

If that is the case then is different from ALL the Lionel AC6000's and the SD70ACe's that I have. Those all have four sets of magnets. Comparing them to the ES44, the top cover is way to loose.

I find it hard to believe Lionel would eliminate them on the ES44's unless it was simply to save a few pennies. Would make a whole lot more sense to either include / don't include from a production perspective. Make thousands of one design (Include or don't include) version is economically more feasible and operationally more efficient from a supply chain perspective. 

If that is the new design, then from my perspective, they need to put back the second set of magnets.

Any pictures of the Iowa Interstate ES44AC? 

Regards, 

Swafford

PSU1980 posted:

Thanks for the information

If that is the case then is different from ALL the Lionel AC6000's and the SD70ACe's that I have. Those all have four sets of magnets. Comparing them to the ES44, the top cover is way to loose.

I find it hard to believe Lionel would eliminate them on the ES44's unless it was simply to save a few pennies. Would make a whole lot more sense to either include / don't include from a production perspective. Make thousands of one design (Include or don't include) version is economically more feasible and operationally more efficient from a supply chain perspective. 

If that is the new design, then from my perspective, they need to put back the second set of magnets.

 

 

You labor under a misconception.  There have never been 2 sets of magnets.  In the older models there was a set of magnets (usually on the cover and a set of metal discs (that look like magnets but are not).  The magnets attract to the metal discs in the body.  However they had to glue in those metal discs and found that the magnets would pull them out and then the covers would not be secure.  Using screws is a design improvement because they can't be pulled out by the pull of the magnet when removing the covers.

All SD70 do not have that design.  I have the last run of the SD70s in the Reading beeline and they have the magnet on the cover and the screw in the body, just like the ES44 only reveresed.  My older UP DD35 has the magnets in the cover and metal discs in the body like you describe.  The new design is much better for longevity.

If you don't believe me you can take a paper clip and on your older engines you will see only one set (either in the cover or body will be magnetized).

Plus using 2 magnets together would create way too strong a connection and also if they were installed backwards during manufacturing actually make the cover pop off as the magnets would oppose each other.  I mean on things like kitchens cabinets you have magnets and then a metal plate for it to attract to right?  So its the same concept.

All they did was replace the disc, which did not have a good method to secure them to the body or cover, and replaced them with metal screws which do the same thing only can't be pulled out.

I like the design much better.

I was finally able to locate another one of the CX Heritage units I have been looking for. Got this at a great price. Here are some pictures of a brand new CSX / Clinchfield Heritage AC6000 Diesel Locomotive with cab number 3602. Lionel's item number is 6-38409. These and the CSX Baltimore & Ohio seem to be very limited. I was able to finally get my hands on one. Once I get can find a CSX B&O I will have one of every one of the Heritage units. I can then focus on NS Heritage units.

Nice unit, striping coloring is excellent. Given the fact that CSX shuttered the Clinchfield main due to the coal tonnage drop I am happy to have been able to get this unit. 

Enjoy the photos.

Kevin 

On the magnets, I just got an email from Lionel......

"We are sending out the magnets.  Your order number is XXXXXXX.  Please allow XXX days for delivery."

Makes sense why install them on the body and not the cover....

PSU1980 posted:

On the magnets, I just got an email from Lionel......

"We are sending out the magnets.  Your order number is XXXXXXX.  Please allow XXX days for delivery."

Makes sense why install them on the body and not the cover....

PSU1980 posted:

On the magnets, I just got an email from Lionel......

"We are sending out the magnets.  Your order number is XXXXXXX.  Please allow XXX days for delivery."

Makes sense why install them on the body and not the cover....

HAHA, I guess you will have to wait and see since you seem intent on getting magnets in your cover.    They are sending you the magnets that are in the body.  You probably won't be able to put 2 sets of magnets in there, I doubt the cover will go all the way down. 

It does not make sense to use 2 sets of magnets.  Lionel has always used a magnet and some metal for it to attract to.  What's the difference whether they are on the body or cover?  Either way they can only be on one side.  Mine works fine and there are no magnets on the cover and when you get the cover almost on it pulls it right down and pops right on.

All that happened there, is a secretary just ordered a part you said was missing.   It does not mean its correct. 

All my new Lionel Legacy diesels use the same design now.  Are you saying every Legacy Diesel is missing magnets?    Maybe you should ask Mike at Lionel.  He certainly would know and put your theory to rest.

 

 

 

Rich Montague posted:

WBC posted:

Chris Dunn posted:

Thanks, Frank and others. I understood that our beloved Santa Fe departed before these engines appeared, but I was wondering whether BNSF ever did a heritage type Santa Fe warbonnet ES44AC.

Chris

It is not like the Santa Fe is GONE. Yes, the Santa Fe is part of a larger entity now, but BNSF stills stands for Burlington Northern and Santa Fe railway, or some of us like to think of it as the Burlington, Northern & Santa Fe railway.  While the bonnets are not now being used on new locomotives,  bonnets shall return sometime in the future in some form and probably with much fanfare.  

"but BNSF stills stands for Burlington Northern and Santa Fe railway"

No, it doesn't, at least not anymore. In 2005, the name was officially-changed to just "BNSF Railway." That's the direction BNSF has moved in and that's I think why Doug is telling you in the post just above that Santa Fe is long gone and you are not likely to see any warbonnet heritage paint jobs.

If it makes you feel any better, I guess the parent company "Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation" (of which the railroad is a wholly-owned subsidiary), at least still exits. That was formed for purposes of  acquiring and merging the ATSF and BN and is actually what in 2009 Berkshire Hathaway acquired controlling interest in.

RM

I disagree. 

When I voted my stock in 1994/95 to approve the merger the document that I was approving specifically stated that the "Santa Fe" name would be retained. As far as I know, that agreement is still in place and enforceable. 

Which is why in court documents the railroad is still known as the "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

Here is a 2009 Supreme Court Case (well past the 2005 name change)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/op...ns/08pdf/07-1601.pdf

where it is officially listed as the "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

And here is a 2015 case

http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/...ir/15/10/143025P.pdf

where it is stated "The sidetrack is adjacent to two railroad tracks belonging to Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway ("BNSF") and also to the property of Quality...." and the railroad is "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

and here is another report from 2015

http://www.kirotv.com/news/new...d-125-million/nmqzH/

where it is "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

Yes, I agree that the public persona is "BNSF" and all advertising and such is "BNSF" and new media is "BNSF", but when they go to court it is "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company". 

PSU1980 posted:

On the magnets, I just got an email from Lionel......

"We are sending out the magnets.  Your order number is XXXXXXX.  Please allow XXX days for delivery."

Makes sense why install them on the body and not the cover....

With 4 screws already secured to the roof cover, where are you going to put these magnets?

If the roof cover is loose see if you can back off the 4 screws so they make better contact with the body-mounted magnets.

I will post a picture of how they did it with the AC6000's and SD70ACE's - you don't see the screws the magnets cover them. They screws are counter sunk into the top and the magnets fit flush.

Catnap,

Have you looked at the top of the AC6000's and SD70ACE- they are exactly how I described. Plus I sent pictures to Lionel, they are the ones that confirmed it. The screws are counter sunk, magnets are in place. - Again, I don't really want a long drawn out argument. They, Lionel agreed, they sent me an email with an order number. If you want to contact Mike, be my guest, bottom line the magnets in tie body  do not create the strong seal.

I will post pictures so you believe want I said and what the service team at Lionel said.

David,

Thanks for the photos of the BNSF es44ac.    In regards to Lionel pricing.  Lionel is not in business to play with model toy trains, Lionel is in the model train manufacturing business which you already know, therefore Lionel's expectation is to make a profit.   I don't understand why you would publicly complain about Lionel's pricing???    I would suggest that you complain to Lionel directly, I'm sure there not going to share what there profit margin is with you..!!!   If this is is just free speech, that's a whole other issue…!!!                             Just keep in mine again, that it cost to own the latest and greatest ..!!  Also the price always comes down on used model train gear..!!!

WBC posted:

Rich Montague posted:

WBC posted:

Chris Dunn posted:

Thanks, Frank and others. I understood that our beloved Santa Fe departed before these engines appeared, but I was wondering whether BNSF ever did a heritage type Santa Fe warbonnet ES44AC.

Chris

It is not like the Santa Fe is GONE. Yes, the Santa Fe is part of a larger entity now, but BNSF stills stands for Burlington Northern and Santa Fe railway, or some of us like to think of it as the Burlington, Northern & Santa Fe railway.  While the bonnets are not now being used on new locomotives,  bonnets shall return sometime in the future in some form and probably with much fanfare.  

"but BNSF stills stands for Burlington Northern and Santa Fe railway"

No, it doesn't, at least not anymore. In 2005, the name was officially-changed to just "BNSF Railway." That's the direction BNSF has moved in and that's I think why Doug is telling you in the post just above that Santa Fe is long gone and you are not likely to see any warbonnet heritage paint jobs.

If it makes you feel any better, I guess the parent company "Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation" (of which the railroad is a wholly-owned subsidiary), at least still exits. That was formed for purposes of  acquiring and merging the ATSF and BN and is actually what in 2009 Berkshire Hathaway acquired controlling interest in.

RM

I disagree. 

When I voted my stock in 1994/95 to approve the merger the document that I was approving specifically stated that the "Santa Fe" name would be retained. As far as I know, that agreement is still in place and enforceable. 

Which is why in court documents the railroad is still known as the "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

Here is a 2009 Supreme Court Case (well past the 2005 name change)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/op...ns/08pdf/07-1601.pdf

where it is officially listed as the "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

And here is a 2015 case

http://media.ca8.uscourts.gov/...ir/15/10/143025P.pdf

where it is stated "The sidetrack is adjacent to two railroad tracks belonging to Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway ("BNSF") and also to the property of Quality...." and the railroad is "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

and here is another report from 2015

http://www.kirotv.com/news/new...d-125-million/nmqzH/

where it is "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company".

Yes, I agree that the public persona is "BNSF" and all advertising and such is "BNSF" and new media is "BNSF", but when they go to court it is "Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company". 

But it's true. Just Google and read BNSF's own 2006 Annual Report and Attached Form 10K which says it straight up (Form 10K at p.iii):

"On January 20, 2005, The Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company changed its name to BNSF Railway Company (BNSF Railway)."

You can it find here: http://www.bnsf.com/about-bnsf...s/pdf/2006annrpt.pdf

What the company says its name is in ts SEC filings is definitive. References in court opinions aren't. The case may have begun (the ones you mentioned indeed appeared to begin) before the name change. The old name would be "baked into" the record by the time it gets to appellate courts, and that's how it can show up in opinions. At any rate, I went and looked at the petition that BNSF and others filed in the Supreme Court asking it to hear the case to which you linked. On page ii, is the statement of parties to the proceeding required by the Supreme Court's rules, and it informs the Court of the name change: 

"BNSF Railway Company ('BNSF'), whose name changed from The Burlington Northern and Santa Fe Railway Company, is the successor in interest to the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe Railway Company."

(Emphasis added). You can read it here: http://www.americanbar.org/con...ner.authcheckdam.pdf

Now I think I've given you a pretty informative and civil response considering that you voted to approve the merger....

RM

Here are 2 SD70ACE's and On AC6000 with magnet in the body and roof cover. The KCS roof cover does not have any. 

If Lionel made a decision to remove them on the newer models then it was to reduce cost. Bottom line, the Engine Compartment Roof top should have a tight fit not be loose or easily removable.

I will also check the ES44 BNSF when it arrives. If they are missing then I will ask for another set. Then we know Lionel purposely left them off.

first that's an older design.  As I said before the screws are used now to attract to the magnets.  In your sd70 the metal circles in the body are not magnets.  They are just metals rings.  So again there are not 2 sets of magnets.  Actually the screws in the es44 have more surface area than the rings, which would come loose.  Not sure why you want to post that these engines have issues when they don't.  All that happened was Lionel moved the magnets to the body instead of the cover, and now the cover has the metal ( the screws) the magnets are attracted to.  I think the issue is you are expecting this super strong magnetic connection, but why?  It's not necessary.  Plus look how chewed up your sd70 cover is from it being so tight.  Why would you want that on the es44 ?  Covers are not suppose to be super tight, just secure which they definitely are on this model.  I have 3 es44s and 3 sd70s and they use the screws and magnets and work fine.  The screws are adjustable to make them closer or farther from the magnets. 

I'd be a buyer for this ATSF color scheme. A color scheme from the past with an inventive touch on a 21st Century diesel locomotive.

Regards,

Swafford    

catnap posted:

PSU1980 posted:

On the magnets, I just got an email from Lionel......

"We are sending out the magnets.  Your order number is XXXXXXX.  Please allow XXX days for delivery."

Makes sense why install them on the body and not the cover....

With 4 screws already secured to the roof cover, where are you going to put these magnets?

If the roof cover is loose see if you can back off the 4 screws so they make better contact with the body-mounted magnets.

I just received my ES44AC.  The radiator cover was very loose and would pop off quite easily. Both the screws and the magnets are recessed in the plastic housing putting some distance between the head of the screw and the magnet. Loosely, the magnetic strength decreases 1/r^3 so any distance between the screw and as such any distance weakens the attraction between the magnet and screw. I backed off the screw until it was touching the magnet (took a little trial and error) and now the fit is very strong and snug. 

Swafford posted:

I'd be a buyer for this ATSF color scheme. A color scheme from the past with an inventive touch on a 21st Century diesel locomotive.

Regards,

Swafford    

Be thankful we got a Santa Fe one. 

The chain is correct, the magnet is not! And I'm surprised they still haven't made a die insert for low headlights. One other inaccuracy, which is correct on MTH's rendition, the NS units should have rear facing ditchlights.

Lionel send me the magnets, they fit nice and snug and the motor cover fits nicely. Much better fit and finish. Just like previous versions. Right / wrong - only speculation unless the Engineering and / or PM show drawings. 

Steven Michael posted:

The chain is correct, the magnet is not! And I'm surprised they still haven't made a die insert for low headlights. One other inaccuracy, which is correct on MTH's rendition, the NS units should have rear facing ditchlights.

Me too. How hard is it to cut to a hole in a front! I would buy a CSX immediately if it had the correct headlight location, maybe even steerable trucks too? Lionel are you listening??

I found on my unit that there was a lot of slop in the wheel sets that brought the gears to their edge. Since I do not like the gears engaging on the edge I inset some "euro clips" (some call the "C" clips and others "E" clips) onto the axles so there is not as much play and keeps the gears fully engaged. The clip just snap onto the axle. The other method would be to put the wheel set into the press, but that seems excessive. The clips are the same ones used to hold the Pulmor motor together among other Lionel uses.  

On a side note, all my Legacy locomotives have had this issue with the slop in the wheel sets. The GP30 it was so bad that the gears would either jam or completely disengage. I wish that Lionel would correct the slop in the wheel sets.  

Just received my NS 8056 locomotive and so far I love it, but it seems like the couplers have little room to turn.  This could be a big error on my part.  I have some tighter turns on parts of my layout and this is causing some problems.  My SD80Mac doesn't have this problem.  Should have read and payed more attention to the minimum curve.  Any good advise for this problem?

The Lionel ES44ac will navigate 048 OK, but not with a light car behind the engine. Lots of discussion on this years ago when ES44ac first came out.

Also make sure the car or engine behind the ES44ac has adequate/wide coupler swing.

Greenline posted:

The Lionel ES44ac will navigate 048 OK, but not with a light car behind the engine. Lots of discussion on this years ago when ES44ac first came out.

When Lionel says 054, they pretty much mean it.  I'm not sure if Lionel's older style fixed couplers on cars would work on 054. The locomotive probably will function around 031 curves without pulling any cars as there is significant swing in the trucks. However, pulling cars behind it is another matter. 

I only have 048 on my railroad and have been able to get the ES44AC do its job. It will only pull a newer car with the newer articulated coupler design. The ES44AC will not work with every car and I found that I had to put 1/2 pound of weight into the car to prevent it from being pushed off the rail.

Here is a picture of the ES44AC coupled to a box car with articulated coupler. There is not much swing to the pilot and there is a lot of outward motion in the coupler.  

Here is short video of it going around the 048 curve.

Here is a short video of the ES44AC going through 048 switches.

Another video of the ES44AC going through 048 switches. 

The ES44AC can navigate 048 curves and switches; however, it is very limited. 

Just curious, do the new plastic bodied ES44AC's have the traditional metal antenna in the middle of the shell or do they still use the handrails as the antenna?

From looking at parts diagrams on Lionel Support, it's a yes but also a maybe. Since most of the parts diagrams for the models didn't list any form of antenna, but there were a few that did list it and it was the traditional metal antenna in the middle of the shell.

Lionel Norfolk Southern (Heritage) ES44AC parts

Lionel Norfolk Southern (Normal) ES44AC parts

In the two example links, you see the Heritage NS model doesn't list the antenna. But the normal NS model does have the antenna listed. So is someone willing to take the shell off of one of their plastic bodied ES44AC so we can have confirmation on if the metal antenna is present?