Lionel's PW Celebration Series - the roster?

Two nice PWC sets running side by side !

The 2356 Southern was always my favorite PW Lionel diesel. A neighbor boy had one but he rarely played with it - I only saw it once and I finally ran across a nice set here on the Forum awhile back.

This is the Williams model on the right from their Golden Classics series many moons ago. Except for the 'scale' pilot, (that came dislodged) it's difficult to tell these apart on a quick glance

I think the CD vs vinyl question was  not interpreted correctly. The original question was which was a better representation of live sound. He was not asking if they were better than live music.

As far as PWC they aren't reproductions or copies if they are made with the same dies as the originals. It just means production was resumed. 

Bob

GSBOB,

Nicely stated on both topics. I also agree that use of the original dies constitutes a continuation of production.

Love those B&O 2368 AB units 👍🏼

while cars like the Traveling Aquarium, Poultry Dispatch, Electromotive Generator, Circus Stock and others were previously issued by LTI  and reissued as part of the PWC series there were some which did not make it to the PWC. Thinking the Range Patrol flat and Helicopter Launch box car.

@CMac posted:

while cars like the Traveling Aquarium, Poultry Dispatch, Electromotive Generator, Circus Stock and others were previously issued by LTI  and reissued as part of the PWC series there were some which did not make it to the PWC. Thinking the Range Patrol flat and Helicopter Launch box car.

I wonder why they didn’t do the helicopter…they did the one with the cannon and wooden shells .

@Former Member posted:

As far as PWC they aren't reproductions or copies if they are made with the same dies as the originals. It just means production was resumed.

Bob

Agreed, 100%.

@Former Member posted:

I think the CD vs vinyl question was  not interpreted correctly. The original question was which was a better representation of live sound. He was not asking if they were better than live music.

Bob

I stand by my point.  Neither is a good representation of live sound.  They're both flawed, and those flaws are detectable even to the untrained ear.  Furthermore, neither is better than the other -- because of the magnitude of these flaws.

Mike

I am deciding whether to just focus on the 1956 reissues since that is my favorite postwar year but I need to see what all was released?

Or I could just get the top sets in the PWC series or purchase the original sets and learn how to restore them to try something new for myself in this hobby.

Looking at some the separate sale pieces, one could create a few sets like Texas Special freight or Southern freight.

Terrance

@c.sam posted:

The 2356 Southern was always my favorite PW Lionel diesel. A neighbor boy had one but he rarely played with it - I only saw it once and I finally ran across a nice set here on the Forum awhile back.

They're nice, but I've always preferred the MPC version of the Southern F3. I have a set of these (packed away right now) where I swapped the shell with a PWC powered chassis, so turned it into a PWC set with the different paint scheme.

Hey Breezinup - they look great 👍🏼 - good idea

So if the PWC cars and engines are just a continuation of the original production pieces, can you tell the difference when they are side by side?

Comparing two mint items, postwar and PWC,  can you see a difference or can you hear a difference in the e-units and horns?

Are all the parts interchangeable?  If not then I would think that they are reproductions.

If it was just a continuation,  then why were the stock numbers different?

I always thought they were reproductions, but maybe I'm mistaken.  But then I'm not sure vinyl and CDs have much to do with trains or PWC.

I have some PWC pieces and I have always considered them reproductions.

Either way I'm glad they made them.

This does certainly make for a handsome locomotive. I would go a little further and drill out the portholes and add some grab irons too!

Would the Lionel Legacy Milwaukee Road F3s look too big next to the Wanash F3 and B&O F3 set?

Terrance

@aussteve posted:

So if the PWC cars and engines are just a continuation of the original production pieces, can you tell the difference when they are side by side?

Comparing two mint items, postwar and PWC,  can you see a difference or can you hear a difference in the e-units and horns?

Are all the parts interchangeable?  If not then I would think that they are reproductions.

If it was just a continuation,  then why were the stock numbers different?

I always thought they were reproductions, but maybe I'm mistaken.  But then I'm not sure vinyl and CDs have much to do with trains or PWC.

I have some PWC pieces and I have always considered them reproductions.

Either way I'm glad they made them.

My Wabash F3's have an oval "PWC Medallion" attached to the frame on it's bottom side.  If I remember correctly, it covers the space formerly occupied by the battery cover.  This is the only externally visible sign, as far as I can tell, that is different from standard postwar production.

Inside is a different story.  The e-unit and horn have been replaced by TMCC and RailSounds electronics.  There is very different sound as a result (digitally recorded prime mover sound, horn and bell) and in conventional mode there is no electromechanical e-unit clicking or buzzing.  This is probably the source of the stock number difference.

Mike

The PWC items have a small "PW" somewhere on them.  The Conventional Classics do not.

@Terrance posted:

Would the Lionel Legacy Milwaukee Road F3s look too big next to the Wanash F3 and B&O F3 set?

Terrance

No.  Although purists might argue with this, in my opinion Lionel's several generations of F3's are the closest in size with respect to each other, when compared to any other diesel series.

To me your Legacy MILW F3's will look just fine with either the Wabash or B&O PWC F3's.

(The difference is not much in size, but much more in detail.  Legacy versions have a lot more.  Things like hoses and MU connections, and even tinier details.  Postwar and PWC have less.  The TMCC versions in the middle have a little more, but not as much as Legacy.)

Mike

Another 'detail' I've noticed that's different between the Legacy F3s and both the Post-War and Post War Celebration F3s is the front window is larger on all the Legacy F series diesel engines (ie. F3, F7  & F9).

@c.sam posted:

This does certainly make for a handsome locomotive. I would go a little further and drill out the portholes and add some grab irons too!

These are on the "to-do" list.   Incidentally, the PWC chassis comes with the cab interior and crew figures, so those additions are already there.

@PH1975 posted:

Another 'detail' I've noticed that's different between the Legacy F3s and both the Post-War and Post War Celebration F3s is the front window is larger on all the Legacy F series diesel engines (ie. F3, F7  & F9).

What you are looking at here is the PW 'Scale' F3 series which is a whole 'nuther critter altogether!

Not sure when exactly but Lionel started producing scale F units in the classic 2333 Sante Fe and 2344 NYC back in the early 2000s (2003?) quickly followed by the 2373/74 Canadian Pacific. They used completely new tooling which incorporated the large scale sized windows and a multitude of good details to create fine O scale models of our favorite diesels. There are no interchangeable parts between the PW Celebration or PW Classics and the newer Scale F3s and F7s. I have the CPs and the B&Os with passenger cars. Beautiful sets. I think they produced the Milwaukee Road and perhaps a few others. Technically, the B&O isn't a "PW Scale" because of the prototypical colors and numbers. These UPs had no PW counterpart either. MTH made a Texas Special scale ABA set that came in Lionel's classic PW scheme of the 2245 that was quite handsome.

Strangely, Lionel never made the Milwaukee Road F-3 AB in either the PWC series or Conventional Classics. I believe that they remade all the other F-3s.
They did make a souped up version with the same PW number and livery but added detailing, etc. i have that one. They did not continue that idea past the MILW ones. Also, alone among the PW EP-5s, Lionel did not do the Milwaukee Road version of that engine, either. I picked up an original PW  one.

@Dave Warburton posted:

Strangely, Lionel never made the Milwaukee Road F-3 AB in either the PWC series or Conventional Classics. I believe that they remade all the other F-3s.
They did make a souped up version with the same PW number and livery but added detailing, etc. i have that one. They did not continue that idea past the MILW ones. Also, alone among the PW EP-5s, Lionel did not do the Milwaukee Road version of that engine, either. I picked up an original PW  one.

Hmm...Did they ever make the B&O ABs?

I thought not, but maybe I missed them.

@johnstrains posted:

Hmm...Did they ever make the B&O ABs?

I thought not, but maybe I missed them.

There’s a video of one running at the top of this page.

I picked up a PWC Southern A-B-A at York today !

@Dave Warburton posted:

Strangely, Lionel never made the Milwaukee Road F-3 AB in either the PWC series or Conventional Classics. I believe that they remade all the other F-3s.
They did make a souped up version with the same PW number and livery but added detailing, etc. i have that one. They did not continue that idea past the MILW ones. Also, alone among the PW EP-5s, Lionel did not do the Milwaukee Road version of that engine, either. I picked up an original PW  one.

@johnstrains posted:

Hmm...Did they ever make the B&O ABs?

I thought not, but maybe I missed them.

While Lionel didn't make the Milwaukee Road F3 in the PWC series, they did make a version just before  the PWC series started, no. 18138. They have a little bit different striping design (which is prototypical), but otherwise similar to the Postwar version. These engines are just the same as PWC internally, being equipped with TMCC and RailSounds, constant voltage directional lighting, electrocouplers, etc. They also made a matching TMCC dummy A unit, as were offered with all the PWC F3 sets. (photos below)

The scale series Dave mentioned, which he referred to as the "souped up version," are called "Postwar Scale" by Lionel. These were scale Legacy F3s, but done with Postwar paint schemes. They actually made two versions in this series; besides the Milwaukee Road, they also did a Canadian Pacific version.

As Dave says, Lionel didn't do a Milwaukee Road PWC EP-5. I didn't pick up a Postwar version, as he mentioned he did, but got the MPC era 8558 Milwaukee EP-5 (which has a paint scheme I liked better - photo below), and swapped shells with a no. 18319 PWC New Haven EP-5. Voila, a PWC Milwaukee Road EP-5.

Lionel did make PWC B&O F3s. They came in a PWC set, no. 31752, with some PWC freight cars. The engines could be gotten separately via sellers doing set break-ups. The engines (A-B) are no. 34504. (Photos below) A separate dummy TMCC A unit was also available. These engines have a beautiful paint finish, incidentally.

@breezinup posted:

While Lionel didn't make the Milwaukee Road F3 in the PWC series, they did make a version just before  the PWC series started, no. 18138. They have a little bit different striping design (which is prototypical), but otherwise similar to the Postwar version. These engines are just the same as PWC internally, being equipped with TMCC and RailSounds, constant voltage directional lighting, electrocouplers, etc. They also made a matching TMCC dummy A unit, as were offered with all the PWC F3 sets. (photos below)

The scale series Dave mentioned, which he referred to as the "souped up version," are called "Postwar Scale" by Lionel. These were scale Legacy F3s, but done with Postwar paint schemes. They actually made two versions in this series; besides the Milwaukee Road, they also did a Canadian Pacific version.

As Dave says, Lionel didn't do a Milwaukee Road PWC EP-5. I didn't pick up a Postwar version, as he mentioned he did, but got the MPC era 8558 Milwaukee EP-5 (which has a paint scheme I liked better - photo below), and swapped shells with a no. 18319 PWC New Haven EP-5. Voila, a PWC Milwaukee Road EP-5.

Lionel did make PWC B&O F3s. They came in a PWC set, no. 31752, with some PWC freight cars. The engines could be gotten separately via sellers doing set break-ups. The engines (A-B) are no. 34504. (Photos below) A separate dummy TMCC A unit was also available. These engines have a beautiful paint finish, incidentally.

Great follow-up on my comments!  Btw, I like the MPC Milwaukee EP5 paint livery very much, as you do. I don’t have one but might pick one up someday, you never know...

I had forgotten  about the “ Postwar Scale” Canadian Pacific F3 AA unit so thanks for mentioning it. I have the PWC version of that one.

@breezinup posted:

While Lionel didn't make the Milwaukee Road F3 in the PWC series, they did make a version just before  the PWC series started, no. 18138. They have a little bit different striping design (which is prototypical), but otherwise similar to the Postwar version. These engines are just the same as PWC internally, being equipped with TMCC and RailSounds, constant voltage directional lighting, electrocouplers, etc. They also made a matching TMCC dummy A unit, as were offered with all the PWC F3 sets. (photos below)

The scale series Dave mentioned, which he referred to as the "souped up version," are called "Postwar Scale" by Lionel. These were scale Legacy F3s, but done with Postwar paint schemes. They actually made two versions in this series; besides the Milwaukee Road, they also did a Canadian Pacific version.

As Dave says, Lionel didn't do a Milwaukee Road PWC EP-5. I didn't pick up a Postwar version, as he mentioned he did, but got the MPC era 8558 Milwaukee EP-5 (which has a paint scheme I liked better - photo below), and swapped shells with a no. 18319 PWC New Haven EP-5. Voila, a PWC Milwaukee Road EP-5.

Lionel did make PWC B&O F3s. They came in a PWC set, no. 31752, with some PWC freight cars. The engines could be gotten separately via sellers doing set break-ups. The engines (A-B) are no. 34504. (Photos below) A separate dummy TMCC A unit was also available. These engines have a beautiful paint finish, incidentally.

Thanks for that!

Never realized the B&Os were made as part of a set in PWC.

Now I have to keep my eye out for the set.

EDIT: Ok, after a little research, realized this is a TMCC-controlled loco. What I was originally commenting on was Lionel never making a traditional / conventional remake of the original 2368 B&O A-Bs (not counting any MPC versions).  Just the locos. Still, it's a nice looking set.

@taycotrains posted:

There’s a video of one running at the top of this page.

Indeed there is. Thanks, Bob!

All;

    I purchased every piece of PWC that Lionel produced. It is my way of having a lot of almost post war that is new without paying high prices for post war in new condition. To me the PWC items look very close to the original with slight variations here and there but I can accept small differences. I would like to see Lionel come back with PWC and produce the items they did not produce first time.

Thanks;

idea-thinker

Further to breezinup's comment about the Postwar Scale Canadian Pacific F3 AA set that Lionel released, it came out in 2010 (6-34582) as engine nos. 2373/2374 and is shown in one of c.sam's great photos above.

@c.sam posted:

Just picked up the handsome PWC 2356 Southern F3 set and am curious about the history of the Series and what pieces were produced. Was not very active when these were first released and only know a little about them. The original 2356s were a childhood favorite and a neighbor had one but his mother didn't like other kids in their house so I only saw them once briefly. His Dad was a merchant marine and was seldom home. Any info and especially photos would be appreciated. Below are some photos of my new set and a painting I did about 10 years ago from the 1954 Lionel catalog of the set.

Well done !

@idea-thinker posted:

All;

    I purchased every piece of PWC that Lionel produced. It is my way of having a lot of almost post war that is new without paying high prices for post war in new condition. To me the PWC items look very close to the original with slight variations here and there but I can accept small differences. I would like to see Lionel come back with PWC and produce the items they did not produce first time.

Thanks;

idea-thinker

I don't have them all (not even close), but I did try to obtain most of the Conventional Classics as they were released. Also, I have since picked up quite a few through the years on the secondary market.

Always disappointed that Lionel ceased producing these. I get it. They may not have sold all that well, but thought they were a great way, as you mention, to have PW locos and sets with a modern touch. There were so many that they never produced. Among others, the many PW Alcos come to mind.

JohnsTrain;

               I also purchased all of the Post War Classics. While they have a few differences from the PWC, the Post War Classics are a nice group of trains to have. I currently have both of these series of trains on display along with the rest of my collection and it is really nice to walk by and see them. It is like viewing the past but all are new. It would be very difficult to get all post war trains that are new today.

Thanks;

idea-thinker