Lionel Service and UPS!

Bummer. I've had my share of UPS shipping issues with expensive items. For what it's worth, here's what I've learned:

 

1.) Document everything with pictures and do not throw away any packaging and otherwise leave the packaging and parcel as untouched as possible and get UPS to inspect ASAP.

 

2.) UPS used to state that packages had to survive a 6' or 10' fall or some such. Not sure if that's the case now but if UPS feels packaging wasn't adequate they will deny the claim. I recently shipped a postwar GG-1 to a restorer and I used newer GG-1 box (i.e., with Styrofoam insert) and then wrapped it in about ~5 lbs of old towels and then put that rats nest into a larger shipping box.

 

3.) Require in writing that the shipper use insurance for the full amount. Many shippers will actually cheap out on this, or simply not do it.

 

4.) The quicker the UPS ship method the less the handling of the package. I live in the Seattle area so upgrading from UPS Ground is expensive but I'll usually stipulate UPS Orange or Blue depending. Similar to insurance shippers will often not follow these guidelines either but I have it in writing.

Sounds like you may be  chasing a phantom with Lionel.  Did you tell the lady at Lionel you had already sent it back?  And, that the tech claimed there was no problem?  Maybe you have to bite the bullet, fix the damage, by new roof fan(s), or disconnect them entirely, and run the engine without the offender.  

 

I am sure you paid a good price for this unit, and you have the right to expect it to be operationally correct.  Your choice, do you live with it or fight to get it repaired to your satisfaction?  Draw your line, and stand by it.

 

Good luck in your choice, whatever it may be.  Bob S.

Those fans are a bit noisy due to all the gearing needed to make them work. The tech wasn't lying about not being able to do much about that. On my Centipedes I installed a micro switch that allows me to turn them off if desired. The switch is mounted on the inside of shell near the hatch. This modification allows me to turn the fans at times when I want to show them off to friends and so forth and then turn them off if I don't want to hear the fan noise. My only wish is that Lionel had installed such a switch themselves when designing the model, but nobody's perfect. Despite the noise, however, I do still think the fans are a cool feature.

 

 

Thanks,

Eric Siegel

On my N de M centipede there is zero fan noise. Cannot hear the fans spinning. But on the downside the couplers are very weak. Will not send the heavy unit across country to get the couplers fixed, will buy a new rear coupler and replace it myself.

 

   Bill T

Definitely, a bummer. I sincerely hope you can get this worked out. Keep us posted.

I worked in a UPS hub for a little while during my college days. Packages were not treated with care back then. It was all about moving them as quickly as possible. I doubt things have changed much, or are any different with any other shipper. Packaging is critical.
Here is a link to UPS' web pages on packaging.

 

Think your "Fragile" or "This End Up" markings have any meaning? Here is a note from the end of the aforementioned document:

Note: UPS does not provide special handling for packages with "Fragile", package orientation (e.g., "UP" arrows or "This End Up" markings), or any other similar such markings.

C.W.,

  Good insight.   One question, if I may:  Are business to business deliveries handled differently than regular old residential consumer deliveries, at least at the sort facilities where i know things get tossed around?

 

I ask as in the ten years I worked in aviation, we shipped and received millions of dollars a year of high end avionics, up to and including radar equipment, and other close tolerance equipment, and not once had any damage or other issues with UPS.

 

The items were usually packed very similarly to how our trains are packed: Box, foam cradles, and may some non static "peanuts" or those air-bag things.

 

Thanks for any insight for this curiosity.

 

 

PS...  If it makes a difference, things were always shipped to us or from us via 2 day or next day air.

 

 

 

quote:

Thanks for any insight for this curiosity.

 

I know there are folks on this site who are more familiar than I with current UPS practices. But here is my take anyway.

 

I can only think of one time I received merchandise that was damaged in shipment. Although I did not think so at the time, to be honest, the item was improperly packaged.

One thing I know UPS has done since I worked for them was to increase the maximum weight (and size) of the packages they will accept. When I worked there, the max was fifty pounds. 
They now accept packages up to 150 pounds (Packages over 70 pounds require a special sticker)(see link).

 IMHO, that means your goods have to be packed that much better, because they might wind up underneath a few 150 lb. boxes or having one of those heavy boxes shift up against them if the truck has to make a short stop, sharp turn or something. (Think about that when you are packing. I knew the weight was up, I didn't know how much).

As far as I know, big shippers get a discount. I do not think their stuff is handled any differently. I have a friend who receives packages of tools on a daily basis from UPS. More often than not, the packages are beat to hell. But you cannot put all the blame on UPS. The supply house does a terrible job of packing. Fortunately, the tools are not fragile, and so far, none of the contents has disappeared, even when the boxes have been torn open.  (So I guess the packing is really good enough)

quote:

I ask as in the ten years I worked in aviation, we shipped and received millions of dollars a year of high end avionics, up to and including radar equipment, and other close tolerance equipment, and not once had any damage or other issues with UPS.

 

I bet that stuff was less fragile and better packed than you think.

 

 

My other Centipede (which has wobbling drivers like crazy and has lost the engine sounds, I ain't sending back at this point) as I mentioned in my initial posting has no roof fan noise. This indicates to me at least that there are parts/Tolerance issues and Lionel can at their wish replace the fan assembly with quiet ones...

 

The unit was shipped in its original Lionel brown outer box. This outer brown shipping box looks actually ok apart from minor dings and scratches. I feel the unit was dropped on its small flat end where the cab is and the foam gave in. As you see, the foam cradle has an opening near the cab area before the end of the cradle and this weakened the foam in that area. The loco is solid die cast metal and is very heavy. This foam cradle , IMHO, is under designed for such weight. Check the pix!

 

I shall ask if Lionel can send me a new fan QUIET assembly and ask them to test it for me first....

 

I like these Centipedes, I am thinking of buying more for future projects and such but will hold off till this is resolved...

 

I'm not trying to bash any carrier, I'm just stating what I go through with them.

I ship on a daily basis, anytime I ship UPS or receive a package from UPS it has damage on it. For damage to be this bad on the shipping cartons, they have to be throwing these packages at least 8 to 10 feet. Anything I ship I have to double bubble wrap and double box it, and I'm lucky if if gets there in one piece. I actually find less trouble with USPS but make no mistake, they are throwing the packages too. So sad!!!!

 

Alex

 

Sorry to hear of the problems with the centipede. Back when I received my UP centipedes I had a couple of issues with mine new out of the box. My engineer was sleeping on the job, he was not in his seat in the forward A unit.

 

But my biggest issue was with the forward A unit around the battery cover there were 2 chips of paint missing on the cab on corners of the hatch. This was very noticeable to me with the UP paint scheme. I set it back to Lionel explaining the issues and that I did not want them back if they could not address the paint chip issue. 

 

They did correct the issue with the paint and engineer, it had to be a new cab no chips and the battery hatches came back in little baggies in a Styrofoam opening away from the roofs.

 

My recommendation if you own a centipede is to store the roof hatches separately from the cabs.

 

Thx Paul. I have exactly the same chip on the Centipede. I think Lionel now realizes hatches should be bagged separately. They get loose in shipping and damage the paint.

 

I am thinking of getting the A-A PRR units, but will wait to see how this pans out...It is in everyone's interest this is addressed properly.

Since  this was a warranty issue,and since this is a vision line product(right?),why be concerned? I was thinking Lionel was to pay shipping both ways for vision line products and give a 2 yr warranty. Lionel should be the one to deal with UPS.Let those 2 fight it out.

 I know exactly what you mean about shipping things back for service.I have a vision line Big boy that was losing its smokebox paint while wiping with very mild laundry detergent to clean off Lionels premium smoke fluid. I contacted Lionel and they want the loco back. I explained this is a very small area and can easily be touched up with an airbrush.(which I am capable of doing) I asked them to send me a small amount of touchup paint. I was politedly told they don't have any and they would rather replace the entire shell. Now, I have a big boy that is in working order(so far). I thought I could do lionel and myself a favor by handling this myself. This post shows the exact reason I don't want to send it back for service. Lionel saves time and a lot of money by just sending a small amount of paint, I don't have to pack it all up and worry about how I will receive it back. I am impressed that they are willing to go to so much unnecessary expense to make it right. So for now, until I have an operating issue within the warranty period, I will just back off the paint issue. A little dissapointed

Lionel probably has a contract with UPS. The folks at UPS do this for a reason. I agree to let them settle their differences.

 

Sam,

You're not left out in the cold. There are those on the forum that have direct contact with, Mike Reagan at Lionel. It might be worth your time to address the problem via the back door. 

+1

 

DO NOT want to sidetrack your thread with complaints about shipping.  Like Alex, I've noticed the same and it isn't an isolated event.

This is the perfect example of why... "just send it back" and make them fix it... many of us do not want to go through. It comes back in worse condition that it was in before shipping it back to Lionel.

Hello guys and gals...

 

I wouldn't DARE ship my Sunset 3rd brass locomotive anywhere. If there is a problem,

i will do everything i can to fix it at home. My brass locomotive does have small paint chips and i go to hobby store to buy small bottle of hobby matte black paint to do touch

ups and let it go at that ! Shipping a heavy "O" scale brass locomotive is too much of a RISK for me.

 

Tiffany 

Exactly...

This is why I haven't sent my FEF back...and, I've had the RA from Lionel for a week now...

I have been learning to fix my own stuff because of this example. Living in CA, it cost a lot to ship 1 way to the midwest or east coast, let alone round trip shipping. Then to have it return with more damage than it had to begin with??? Granted it doesn't happen every time... BUT IT CAN.

I would rather learn to fix them myself, and spend the money on parts.

I agree.  However, I'm at the point with help from this forum (GRJ, Marty, Boxcar Bill, GGG) I can't get it to work.  Can't figure it out.  No local service station either.

 

Hate to ship it back to Lionel but I may not have a choice...

This is NOT a VL product. I was lead to believe it was  VL by Lionel authorized dealers (they probably simply assumed it was a VL product) so I purchased TWO single units assuming they were VL, well they are not!!! It is OK, live and learn.

 

Having said that, I failed, and I apologize, to mention that Lionel did not charge me for shipping so I am very happy with that. At this point I am NOT criticizing Lionel great service so far, in fact I am commending them on a good service. Had they asked for shipping, I may have just purchased a new roof fan module and did the exchange my self.....

 

By the way, I completely understand Lionel asking you to return the BB for repairs, this is great service. If it was me, I'd ask to return just the shell and see if they will do that...

 

The shipping damage issue will be addressed through common channels and I'll report back if you guys are interested...

 

Same here Alex, All shipping companies are hard on boxes but I find USPS and Fedex to be better....

 

Thx Happy Pappy (can I call you HP? )....I think I'll try that if the normal channels fail.

 

 

Right LOS, I know, that is why I do not like to send them in. My VL BB has very anemic blowdown smoke unless I run it lean, AND has a humming noise when I turn the sounds off, another VL BB I tested under identical conditions, did NOT have this humming noise, it was dead quiet and it ran perfect with great smoke everywhere!!! I really do not want to send my BB in

 

Breaking down the Munoz Lines, I shipped hundreds of boxes. I avoided UPS whenever possible. UPS is simply the worst carrier there is. Period. USPS has been excellent. They are no longer inexpensive, but their damage rate for me is 1/100 of UPS. It seems to me that UPS is concerned only with speed of delivery and nothing else.

 

Scrappy

I got my N&W y6b last week, the outer shipping box looked like it had gone thru ww2. It was shipped by UPS. The driver hung around till we unpacked and checked it out. Lucky there was no damage to the engine or tender.

I am very amazed and thankful that the VL BB shipper box arrived almost perfect through UPS. The BB brown outer box has about 1/2" foam sheets all around and if there were any hard impact on the brown box, it would most likely reach the beautiful Black BB inner box easily. I believe, last time I checked with UPS store manager, he said UPS requires TWO inches space all around the internal box and filled with peanuts...IF this is correct, then all MTH and Lionel do not meet this spec.....again If what he said is correct.

 

I always put the factory box with foam in another box with foam all around it. Ups requires 2" of foam around the piece to be protected. Just the brown outer box is not enough protection with just the foam box. UPS looks bad because so many do not pack properly. Go to the ups site and read how the box is suppose to be packed, now look how you pack stuff and how stuff received damaged was pack. I agree they are rough on stuff, but if it was packed like its recommended to then it wouldnt be damaged no matter how the outer box looked. I have shipped hundreds of trains with ups with no damage. Received several damaged but again due to a lazy shipper.

They require that for a reason... so they can toss the boxes at will and then deny claims because the shipper didn't pack it correctly based on their requirements. Such a crock of ****!

This is a CYA policy so they can say each item damaged wasn't packed correctly.  Good thinking on their part.

I couldn't agree more.  When I have a choice of shippers, I use Fed Ex.  Recently I've had good luck with USPS also.  Problem is when you don't have a choice and an item is sent UPS.  That's normally when I get something damaged.  Not bashing them, it's just what I've experienced.

My VL BBs were shipped UPS-no choice-and the boxes look liked hell.

Whatever you want to call it, but guess what it actually works! Like i say i have had a "0" damage as i pack to their rules. The way i look at it your shipping something worth several hundred to several thousand dollars, is it really a big deal to spend a couple bucks on foam and a bigger box? Why give them a reason to deny your claim. Also if you think fedex or any other carrier doesnt throw the boxes around, your living in a fantasy world. My post man stood at the end of my front stairs (7) and whipped a pacific limited car at my front door. Its nothing to do with the company but the luck of the draw to what knucklehead will be handling your package



       

At present I have 5 different Woodland Buildings. 3 were delivered by UPS. All 3 had damages to shipping box, and damage, and broken pieces. 2 were denied insurance payment, blaming shipper packaging. Yet the 3rd was shipped, package the same. (I'm sure everyone is aware how these are packed.

The others were shipped using USPS, and  FEDEX. No damages, shipping carton pristine. I sold and shipped 1 Lionel Legacy last year I sold, used UPS. Arrived damaged at buyers home.

I personally will not use UPS when I ship. Besides its a hassle with all the questions, measuring of package, filling their forms out, etc. 

Seems the manufacturers ship the product box in a snug fitting outer shipping box.  No amount of insurance will cover an engine shipped this way, or at least with UPS.  Of course the staff at the drop off centers will gladly take your insurance money.  It has to be in a larger outer box with at least 2" of foam "peanuts" or similar surrounding it.  I purchased a Lionel M1a from a forum member some years ago.  The outside boxes were perfect.  The foam cradle was destroyed on the side with the front end of the steamer.  The cow catcher was bent and had severe stress cracks.  Despite all the photos and the insurance, UPS basically said it was not their fault.  Remember when steamers came in the long boxes because they'd pack the tender directly behind the engine instead of below it.  Handlers have a tendency to drop those long boxes on end.  The MTH Little Joe is a long engine, and the first one sent to me had the front coupler sheared completely off and buried into the foam cradle.  May as well save your money on useless insurance, it is just insult to injury.

 

Rich 

Lionel certainly is not in UPS compliance. I worked for UPS while I was going to school and I shudder at the thought of them handling anything expensive I order.

Are any of the manufactures UPS compliant with engines? Probably not... yet their packaging is tested for rough handling by shippers when the boxes are designed. Scott Mann does the same thing. Whether shippers are compliant with UPS regulations or not.... is NO excuse for the handling that all our packages receive! It's called lazy, although some of it is done on purpose.

Something no one has mentioned yet-Shipping prices are now also based on dimension size, for all shipping companies. 

 

If you add two inches to each side to be 'UPS compliant' you're adding 4" to each side of the box, increasing shipping cost.  Clever on them...

 

Personally, I have no problem with that if my item arrives safely.  When I play by their rules and get told they won't cover the damage-that's a whole different situation. 

 

As said before, this is my experience and I know it's luck of the draw no matter if FedEx, UPS, or USPS.

 

The only damaged items I've had have all been UPS.  That tells me what I need to know.

 

It's simple to me-I don't use UPS when I have a choice.  Avoids all the drama.

 

UPS is not the only one. The last package I received from USPS had "fragile" stamped and labeled all over it. You see clearly where it was stomped on and crushed and of course one item inside was destroyed. I had the Postman look at it and he just stated it was the shipper's problem from incorrect packing.