Lionel Setup - Power discussion

You'll get many replies about which is the best transformer to use. It's like asking which golf clubs or tennis racquet should I buy. Part of it depends on how heavily you will be getting into the hobby. IMHO, the new Lionel CW-80 is a good all around choice between a beginning/starter layout and a larger, advanced layout. However, I'm not sure if it is out yet.   

To run LC, LC+ or LC+2 via bluetooth, you need to first download the Lionel App to your device. It's a free download. Once downloaded, it should recognize your engine once it's powered up. You may need to switch bluetooth on if your engine has a switch on the bottom.

I'm using the Lionel BT app now. My question was more about interference about what happens when I "throttle up" to 18 and whether that would override my App.

@Aaron G. posted:

I'm using the Lionel BT app now. My question was more about interference about what happens when I "throttle up" to 18 and whether that would override my App.

No - setting track power to 18 volts AC will not override the app or the remote (if so equipped). In fact, my recollection is that the manual for LC/+/2.0 engines says to set the power at 18 volts and then use the remote or App to command the engine.

LC/+/2.0 engines take their commands from the remote or the App, so increasing power by throttling up should have no effect on engine movement.

Also, forgot to add that the MTH Z-1000 would also make a good choice for an AC transformer; however, MTH is going out of business so repairs, supplies, etc. may be problematic. OTOH, it is generally a very solid and well performing transformer that should give you years of great performance.

@Aaron G. posted:

I'm also adding some uncoupling tracks....(I'm going to try them to see how it works). However, I think those will actually use DC power.

According to the manual the operating tracks require AC voltage.

Operating Track Manual

@MartyE posted:

According to the manual the operating tracks require AC voltage.

Operating Track Manual

Yes, I was hoping it would still work on DC like the control switches which say something very similar on Page 8 of that manual. I run them on DC power.

However, based on my limited research and based on the AC power ratings it wants to make the magnet work, I think the uncoupler will require AC power from an accessory terminal (given most other things want the AC on the track up to 18volts). So maybe I'll be switching to AC power next year (I could still run my plug and play accessories on DC power I think. I assume by switching the accessory track to aux power it will use the DC only for the accessory jacks and remain isolated from the track).

The biggest problem I have with AC and maybe that's because I don't know better...is what happens when I switch everything off? Do I have to adjust the transformer to the correct voltage each and every time I start up? Or does it remember its last setting?

@Aaron G. posted:

The biggest problem I have with AC and maybe that's because I don't know better...is what happens when I switch everything off? Do I have to adjust the transformer to the correct voltage each and every time I start up? Or does it remember its last setting?

If you don't move the handle it should come back on at the setting you left it.

I believe it depends on the type of transformer. Some modern transformers will not turn on with the throttle in the up (on) position. This is for safety and protection. They do not remember the last setting.

Both the CW-80 and MTH Z-1000 have marked graduation lines so that you can remember where the throttle has to be to achieve a particular voltage level.  More expensive transformers have on-board displays to let you know what voltage you are dialing in.

You can always put a sticker on to remember where 18 volts is. On my old CW-80, 18 volts was always with the handle perfectly straight up and perpendicular to the base so that it only took a second to set to the correct voltage. 

The LC/+/2.0 engines are not overly sensitive to voltage. Mine always ran ok anywhere from about  15-18 volts so, if you're off a little on the down side it should operate fine.

The issue with the CW80 is that if I want to set the accessory voltage to 10-12 and the track at 14-18 do I have to set the voltage for my accessory each and every time I turn on the power?

What I want is for my kids to be able to turn on the track and operate it without a lot of room for error.

Right now, I can operate virtually everything from DC power. All the new stuff coming out is "plug and play" which operates off DC power. So I'll have to evaluate what to do.

Meanwhile I have a uncoupling track I can't use and don't know if I will use based on how the AC environment is operating.

So why do the accessory pieces need to have transformers that are phased the same as the track power? I'm guessing because they use the same ground and therefore, need to have the hot the same otherwise it sees two hots. But if it were truly using two different power sources then it wouldn't matter.

Like the accessory plug and play power track. That uses a separate DC power. So it takes power from a complete different source. Or am I missing something?

Aaron,

I like that fastrack layout you have. I'm just getting back to the hobby and looking at ideas for a small layout as I don't have much room yet. Is it the same 4x8 layout as this one?  I've seen similar on other sites as well. Or is it a bit smaller?

https://www.legacystation.com/...rossover-layout-plan

Z

@Aaron G. posted:

The issue with the CW80 is that if I want to set the accessory voltage to 10-12 and the track at 14-18 do I have to set the voltage for my accessory each and every time I turn on the power?

What I want is for my kids to be able to turn on the track and operate it without a lot of room for error.

Right now, I can operate virtually everything from DC power. All the new stuff coming out is "plug and play" which operates off DC power. So I'll have to evaluate what to do.

Meanwhile I have a uncoupling track I can't use and don't know if I will use based on how the AC environment is operating.

No - once you set the accessory voltage it will stay at that voltage every time you turn the transformer on and off.

@Zildjianmeister68 posted:

Aaron,

I like that fastrack layout you have. I'm just getting back to the hobby and looking at ideas for a small layout as I don't have much room yet. Is it the same 4x8 layout as this one?  I've seen similar on other sites as well. Or is it a bit smaller?

https://www.legacystation.com/...rossover-layout-plan

Z

gulp... wow... never looked at the pricing of Fast track. sticker shock

Update:

So far I'm running DC power till. I bought an upgraded DC unit and it seems to power the entire track just fine. But I do have two now and can section off parts of the track (If I remember how by next Christmas). I also have power going to the accessories independently. So for now, I've chosen not to move to AC. (although I like the MTH christmas trains).

As I expanded, I simply built my own ‘terminal’ track and run everything off of a 180 brick - locomotive LC via the Bluetooth app and all accessories are Plug & Play.  Simple, plenty of power and good circuit breaker protection to boot!

I think where I came in was thinking about having uncoupler tracks and other accessories that apparently run off AC.  I did pick up a Lionel AC accessory power pack from a thrift store listing (it was cheap so I just got it).  But honestly the DC power has been more than enough and runs my plug and play accessories. It's easy for the kids too because they just hit the remote button to turn on the trains. I'd like to build a small christmas town that can turn off with a switch too but so many use batteries.

On my layout, I can run either variable DC or variable AC.  It has been my experience that almost every engine will run on DC as well as AC and will many times run more smoothly, especially those early universal motor equipped locos. I had the same  result with accessories, better overall performance with DC. There are some accessories which require AC, those with vibrating platforms, etc.

@BOB WALKER posted:

It has been my experience that almost every engine will run on DC as well as AC and will many times run more smoothly, especially those early universal motor equipped locos.

Clearly, you haven't run much TMCC or Legacy.

From almost every TMCC locomotive manual...

From a Legacy manual.

Good point. Should have mentioned I was referring to conventional locos using either electronic or mechanical E-units. I have always used AC for TMCC equipped locos. Improved accessory performance on DC is pretty clear.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Good point. Should have mentioned I was referring to conventional locos using either electronic or mechanical E-units. I have always used AC for TMCC equipped locos. Improved accessory performance on DC is pretty clear.

I only mentioned it as the OP specifically talked about adding Legacy to the mix.

I definitely wasn't going to run a legacy loco on DC since the instructions say to run AC. I was trying to figure out if I should change my track to AC for my existing setup which is one LionChief Disney setup and a Lionchief 2.0 Berkshire. I've contemplated other loco (I really like MTH) but I prefer the small size of the Lionel O Gauge. I have some tight curves.

Well, the LC, LC+, and LC+ 2.0 engines will all run on AC, to that's certainly not a bad idea.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the LC, LC+, and LC+ 2.0 engines will all run on AC, to that's certainly not a bad idea.

And apparently the plug and play accessories will also run on AC. I'm considering it...but I've not gotten there yet.

Will MTH rolling stock light up using DC power from my Lionel fastrack? OR does that require AC?

That would depend on the specific rolling stock, some will require AC, some will run on AC or DC.

I was looking at pieces like these two:

1. MTH3076787 RAILKING CHRISTMAS FLAT CAR WISE MEN SCENE O GAUGE holiday lite
2. MTH2093879 CHRISTMAS BOX CAR W/LED LIGHTS

It would seem odd to me they couldn't run on DC power since LEDs usually run on DC.

@Aaron G. posted:

It would seem odd to me they couldn't run on DC power since LEDs usually run on DC.

Not odd at all, they obviously convert the voltage to DC for the LED's.  Remember, Lionel TMCC & Legacy both specify ONLY AC, yet they have tons of LED's.

The might run at one polarity, and when they had a different polarity, they might not.  Without seeing the details of how the power is converted, it's pretty hard to say why they specify AC.

They say they will run with any AC power source but don't say anything about DC.

Yep, so we don't really know.  Since I don't have the cars, I likely won't ever know.

I've been looking at various Lionel manuals for rolling stock that only has illumination. I've found none that specify the power that can be used. That's interesting.

well now I know. They work on DC.

I am perplexed by those who limit themselves with DC.  3 rail O gauge has been on AC to the rails for over a century and essentially everything will run on AC just fine. The opposite can not be said of running DC to those things, which can ultimately be detrimental. Unlock the freedom to use anything and everything and more of it via AC and loose the worry of "XYZ doesn't state DC compatibility, is it?" nonsense and the potentially costly mistakes that can follow. Additionally, operating on AC doesn't limit your command control options - it expands upon them.

@bmoran4 posted:

I am perplexed by those who limit themselves with DC.  3 rail O gauge has been on AC to the rails for over a century and essentially everything will run on AC just fine. The opposite can not be said of running DC to those things, which can ultimately be detrimental. Unlock the freedom to use anything and everything and more of it via AC and loose the worry of "XYZ doesn't state DC compatibility, is it?" nonsense and the potentially costly mistakes that can follow. Additionally, operating on AC doesn't limit your command control options - it expands upon them.

Well, since you asked so nicely I'll tell you why. Because the train is a Christmas only setup that needs to be plug and play. The kids turn on power to the track via Wifi then run the locomotives via bluetooth. So everything on my track runs on DC because, for now, it's easiest to get everything up and running in minimal time and the track is powered instantly without the need to set the AC power. Also, it's very easy to plug power into the track and into the track accessories.

Now I'm told that the new transformers will power up to their last setting but that isn't entirely clear. So until I'm clear on that, I'll stick with my simple DC power setup.

@Aaron G. posted:

Now I'm told that the new transformers will power up to their last setting but that isn't entirely clear.

Any classic transformer will power up to whatever the throttle is set to as does the CW-80. A PH180 brick always supplies 18V. It seems odds are in your favor.

As we’ve expanded the Christmas set-up every year (more track, more lighted cars, more plug and play accessories) and running LC with Bluetooth, I just went all out with one PH180 and made my own custom terminal.  Plenty of power and great circuit breaker protection.  I don’t see any downside.

Can you share more pictures of your setup? Are you just using that one plug for the entire track? What is the SKU on the transformer you're using (180-WATT POWERHOUSE™ POWER SUPPLY SKU: 6-22983?) Do you just run the accessories off the track power? Are you using any accessories that require separate AC Power (at a different voltage)? Why did you choose that particular connector?

Right now I've got the LIONCHIEF 72-WATT POWER SUPPLY (4 AMP) SKU: 6-81603 running the track including several Christmas lighted sections. I use another DC power supply to run to an accessory FastTrack that uses auxillary power to run all the plug n play Lionel items. Everything seems to run great even with 2 or even three locomotives.  I was looking at the CW-80 since that is new. I also heard Lionel has a pigtail to barrel plug connector (although I'm sure I can get some off amazon too). That would allow me to keep the existing barrel plug fasttrack. And I could still run DC to the auxillary port for plug n play (so I don't take amps from the CW-80).

If I ever wanted to get into accessories that run off AC, of course I'd need to make the switch. But right now that would mean a large expansion I don't have room for.

How many different powered sections do people normally run? And do they separate them?

Powerhouse 180 (sku 685226)

I have six plug-and-play items, seven lighted cars, Hero Boy Walking car, PE sound car and the locomotive running from either the included remote or the iOS app. Total of 30+ feet of track with 2 side spurs also.  All controlled from one simple switch at the Powerhouse that also provides great circuit breaker protection. With 180W and 10 amps still have plenty of power to spare. Building my own terminal track cost less than $3 for connectors; attached to an existing 10 inch Fasttrack piece. This option is far less complicated, cluttered, and expensive than any other option.  I’ve yet to see any downside to this approach.

@NoviceBen posted:

Powerhouse 180 (sku 685226)

I have six plug-and-play items, seven lighted cars, Hero Boy Walking car, PE sound car and the locomotive running from either the included remote or the iOS app. Total of 30+ feet of track with 2 side spurs also.  All controlled from one simple switch at the Powerhouse that also provides great circuit breaker protection. With 180W and 10 amps still have plenty of power to spare. Building my own terminal track cost less than $3 for connectors; attached to an existing 10 inch Fasttrack piece. This option is far less complicated, cluttered, and expensive than any other option.  I’ve yet to see any downside to this approach.

So your layout seems very similar to mine except you’re using AC. What is that connector type called?

I like how you hid the cords under the blanket. Did you just use a cheap one from Walmart type store or do you have a favorite you buy?

also, where’d you get the mountain in the background?

Most of us use either the 6-12016 Lionel FasTrack terminal track or make our own FasTrack terminal tracks.

When needing to connect to or from a Molex power connector (say on the PH180), we either cut it off or make our own adapter using the requisite components:

Molex Female housing 538-03-09-2032
Molex Male housing    538-03-09-1032
Molex Male pins 538-02-09-2103
Molex Female pins 538-02-09-1104

You may also see use of Banana Plugs with various equipment, like on a CW-80.

Edit: One last option which I forgot to mention is that you can cut the cord off your cost reduced and less capable LC power supply and connect it to your more capable transformer and continue to use the barrel connector on the FasTrack or make your own barrel connector wire with a standard 2.5mm x 5.5mm male connector.

@Aaron G.    Check out this thread.  May be of some help. 

I was asking about direct connection to the fastrack with a PH180.  Looks to be an adapter cable that Lionel sells or one can make their own as mentioned above.   If I'm correct the molex connector on adapter connects to the molex on the PH180. The spade connectors on the adapter connect to the fastrack.

https://ogrforum.com/...nnection-to-fastrack

Z