hokie71 posted:I don't want to be critical but threads like this are very subjective and provide a let's pile on opportunity for some. A few thoughts:
1) as d500 notes, if no one buys BTO, there is no BTO. We need to get real on this.
No way. The dealers order plenty. Lionel just transfers the risk from themselves to their dealer network. Not once have I not preordered order a BTO item and been unable to pick it up from a deleter once they are delivered.
Actually, BTO in a way was in effect in the post war era. The UP GP, and SP FM were not green lighted because of a lack of orders.
Anothet thing with 3rd Rail. They seem to be mote robust out of the box.
I guess different opinions can be considered "piling on" if enough of them are negative. But they are still a person's presumably valid opinions. I've been burned by the BTO and won't pre-order. I would prefer to miss an item than spend a lot of money on something I don't like. And selling something you don't like for close to the purchase price hasn't worked for me. So for me, the pre-order just doesn't make sense.
As for this specific post, I would rather have the Lionel 18" aluminum cars (I do) than spend this kind of money on "plastic" cars. Going further, I have had Alex put interiors in older aluminum cars and have been very pleased with the results.
Gerry
rockstars1989 posted:FCAVOLO-Send the set back. Demand a refund. It's just not worth the aggravation. Nick
I may be in the minority, but the OP decided to order the set sight unseen. This is NOT the dealers fault and demanding a refund and sticking it to the dealer does not seem fair to me.
Paul
Railrunnin posted:rockstars1989 posted:FCAVOLO-Send the set back. Demand a refund. It's just not worth the aggravation. Nick
I may be in the minority, but the OP decided to order the set sight unseen. This is NOT the dealers fault and demanding a refund and sticking it to the dealer does not seem fair to me.
Paul
I agree that the dealer is in a bad position. In a lot of cases the dealer is purchasing through as distributor. By the time the item is sold to the dealer, then to us, I would imagine margins are thin. If the dealer refunds the customer and has to go to his distributor to get whole, who feels the pain? Not the company at fault.
I would think the issue would be best displayed to the manufacturer. When enough people brought up the Polar Express paint mismatch, they responded that they would make it right. For what its worth, my dealer did not know anything about the paint mis-match issues. I'm just saying, complaining or seeking remediation from a dealer may not be effective in fixing the root cause.
Similar to the missing song on the PE Hot Chocolate Car, features were promised, on these cars, shiny was expected. Perhaps over sold in the catalog. If BTO is to continue, more accuracy of the description being ordered has to be there to maintain credibility and trust. It doesn't hurt to undersell a bit in this matter. Just my 2 cents.
To be fair, both the catalog pictures and actual production model should be shown, then an objective opinion can be made and a case for return for refund.
I think one should put the responsibility to make it good on the importer who can then take it back to the exporter and work out the $$ details with them. The mom and pop stores should not bear the burden of **** quality control.
Railrunnin posted:rockstars1989 posted:FCAVOLO-Send the set back. Demand a refund. It's just not worth the aggravation. Nick
I may be in the minority, but the OP decided to order the set sight unseen. This is NOT the dealers fault and demanding a refund and sticking it to the dealer does not seem fair to me.
Paul
We are stuck with that Paul,
If you order a new car and it isn't what was ordered your only recourse is with the dealer. I doubt the manufacturer cares at all, they have already been paid.
Railrunnin posted:rockstars1989 posted:FCAVOLO-Send the set back. Demand a refund. It's just not worth the aggravation. Nick
I may be in the minority, but the OP decided to order the set sight unseen. This is NOT the dealers fault and demanding a refund and sticking it to the dealer does not seem fair to me.
Paul
RAIL-Hey that's your choice and your fine. If you are that concerned with protecting the entity that you are buying from then eat it yourself and call it a day. Good luck. Nick
rockstars1989 posted:Railrunnin posted:rockstars1989 posted:FCAVOLO-Send the set back. Demand a refund. It's just not worth the aggravation. Nick
I may be in the minority, but the OP decided to order the set sight unseen. This is NOT the dealers fault and demanding a refund and sticking it to the dealer does not seem fair to me.
Paul
RAIL-Hey that's your choice and your fine. If you are that concerned with protecting the entity that you are buying from then eat it yourself and call it a day. Good luck. Nick
Your choice as well Nick. I'd rather support my local hobby shop than try and help them go out of business.
Paul
Defective products go back to the distributor who has the direct relationship with the manufacturer/importer. I send defective items back all the time. Its part of the business of a successful dealer. Why shouldn't the consumer do the same?
I looked at Eric's video. It is difficult to see the finish on his CP cars because of the plastic box covering. Here are some photos of a Santa Fe dome car that I took in 2014. The car was in the Santa Fe Southern Railway yard in Santa Fe, New Mexico. I hope that this helps.
Leaving through the various posts above, I’m not clear quite what basis the OP would have for sending these items back for refund. If Lionel reply that these cars are intact, in accordance with their specification, where does that leave him?
Is the OP claiming misleading advertising? If do, how does that work?
I’m not familiar with US law on this. In the U.K., caveat emptor applies (= let the buyer beware); it would be the buyer’s responsibility to demonstrate that, having ordered items sight unseen, the items received were not “of merchantable quality”.
New Haven Joe posted:I looked at Eric's video. It is difficult to see the finish on his CP cars because of the plastic box covering. Here are some photos of a Santa Fe dome car that I took in 2014. The car was in the Santa Fe Southern Railway yard in Santa Fe, New Mexico. I hope that this helps.
While a good photo of a stainless steel car, unfortunately it has suffered the ravages of sitting outside in the weather for many years.
Here's more or less what stainless steel should look like:
Rusty
The finish was not advertised to be different than what they have previously produced for plastic cars. Aka a new simulation on stainless steel. Just looked at catalog and it does not depict shiny aluminum looking cars. I’m not sure what the issue is.
SuperChief posted:The finish was not advertised to be different than what they have previously produced for plastic cars. Aka a new simulation on stainless steel. Just looked at catalog and it does not depict shiny aluminum looking cars. I’m not sure what the issue is.
Why would anyone think that? Lionel is Known to change with every new release.
The catalog states: "Simulated Stainless Steel Metallic Finish".
Glossy Silver paint is Not Simulated Stainless steel.
Everyone knows (including Lionel) that catalog mock ups are just computer generated images. Maybe Lionel needs to show an actual Model (as the HO manufacturers do).
SPSF posted:Everyone knows (including Lionel) that catalog mock ups are just computer generated images. Maybe Lionel needs to show an actual Model (as the HO manufacturers do).
I believe in most cases the actual models haven't yet been made at the time the catalogs are prepared, so that's not possible.
breezinup posted:SPSF posted:Everyone knows (including Lionel) that catalog mock ups are just computer generated images. Maybe Lionel needs to show an actual Model (as the HO manufacturers do).
I believe in most cases the actual models haven't yet been made at the time the catalogs are prepared, so that's not possible.
One of my pet peeves: they shouldn't catalog an item until it is made, at least not in a consumer catalog. No "artists' renderings," no CAD model, no best guess based on what Lao Che promised over drinks three years ago: photographs only.
Yes, yes: I know that such a thing can't happen in the current business model, but I fear that the current business model is a significant part of the problem.
Seems pretty clear to me that, by any normal definition, a "Simulated Stainless Steel Metallic Finish" is a finish with a metallic appearing stainless steel sheen that is simulated (by whatever means the manufacturer chooses to use), as opposed to being actual stainless steel. The fact that it is "simulated" should be the only difference - not the appearance, itself. You don't get to change the appearance you promised just because you decided to simulate it, rather than use the real thing, where you've promised to deliver a product that has a metallic stainless steel appearance in your advertising. That would be misleading.
If the product does not have such a metallic stainless steel appearance, regardless of how they attempted to simulate it, it seems reasonably clear to me that the manufacturer has not produced a product that has lived up to its advertising.
However, that does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer was deceptive. Perhaps they were counting on using one of the new metallic paint finishes that simply didn't work out as planned when mass produced. That does not mean they are excused from making good on their advertising; only that it may not have been intentionally misleading.
palallin posted:breezinup posted:SPSF posted:Everyone knows (including Lionel) that catalog mock ups are just computer generated images. Maybe Lionel needs to show an actual Model (as the HO manufacturers do).
I believe in most cases the actual models haven't yet been made at the time the catalogs are prepared, so that's not possible.
One of my pet peeves: they shouldn't catalog an item until it is made, at least not in a consumer catalog. No "artists' renderings," no CAD model, no best guess based on what Lao Che promised over drinks three years ago: photographs only.
Yes, yes: I know that such a thing can't happen in the current business model, but I fear that the current business model is a significant part of the problem.
What about all those Lionel catalogs of the 1950's with artist renderings????
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:New Haven Joe posted:I looked at Eric's video. It is difficult to see the finish on his CP cars because of the plastic box covering. Here are some photos of a Santa Fe dome car that I took in 2014. The car was in the Santa Fe Southern Railway yard in Santa Fe, New Mexico. I hope that this helps.
While a good photo of a stainless steel car, unfortunately it has suffered the ravages of sitting outside in the weather for many years.
Here's more or less what stainless steel should look like:
Rusty
More of an apples to apples comparison in these pictures showing CP cars. There are variations, of course, depending on lighting conditions, photo characteristics including age, car variations including how long they had been "out on the road," and company publicity shots (like the last three) may show the cars being shinier than usual. Overall, they looked metallic, but did not have a gloss shine. The most shine appears to show up in company photos in direct reflected sunlight, but it's still not a shiney finish.
Lionel's recently released CP passenger cars.
The color of Canadian Pacific maroon/red looks good.
This is a recently released MTH Railking passenger car with a "PLATED BODY FINISH" as advertised in the catalog:
Rusty Traque posted:What about all those Lionel catalogs of the 1950's with artist renderings????
Rusty
I can already hear the gasps, the clinking of pitchforks, and the clamor for my hide, but I don't like them at all. I'll take MPC/LTI catalogs. Bob Sherman was an immensely talented man, and his art was wonderful, but I only need to point to the (in)famous black Warbonnets to make my case. Can you imagine the hue and cry today??
palallin posted:Rusty Traque posted:What about all those Lionel catalogs of the 1950's with artist renderings????
Rusty
I can already hear the gasps, the clinking of pitchforks, and the clamor for my hide, but I don't like them at all. I'll take MPC/LTI catalogs. Bob Sherman was an immensely talented man, and his art was wonderful, but I only need to point to the (in)famous black Warbonnets to make my case. Can you imagine the hue and cry today??
I can understand your view, especially since the Lionel catalogs of old also tended to moderate the size difference between some of the trains.
However, I think those illustrations sold not only trains, but also sold dreams. Those illustrated catalogs fired the imagination as to what your Lionel empire could be.
One of my favorite catalogs is the 1962 Athearn HO catalog, even though I don't do HO now. The illustrations still fire my imagination to this day, whereas the 1961 catalog with the model photos leave me cold...
But, it's a different world today.
Rusty
There may be a solution.....and this is not a cure all, but it might make some of you cats a little happier with those cars....studying the pics Jr. Junction provided, it looks as if the new Lionel cars are a really dull/satin finish. The pics provided of the prototype ( I hope y’all had permission by the way) clearly show a glossy finish when “in service “ now, that’s clearly the polished stainless gleaming, but I also take note that the stripe has sunlight gleaming off of it, which indicates to me a level of gloss as well......perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there.....don’t cringe!...but a nice thin coat of an automotive clear laid down over the body might bring these cars up a notch for y’all???....at least then when you step back to run your set, this will give some depth of reflections to moderately offset the dullness they clearly have now..........I’m not defending anybody, I’m not taking any sides, just offering a solution......and yes, I could make that happen...........cars kinda look really sharp, they just a little too dull to me......good luck fellas!...hope y’all get happy!.........Pat
Lionel should take these back and have them painted correctly. What a shame.
No question about this one, the plated finish is what these cars need. The MTH plated finish is definitely nice. Lionel missed the goal again.
There is no substitute for ACTUAL "boots on the ground" (in the Asian factories) for oversight of specifications compliance. Scott Mann apparently does this with the production of his products.
harmonyards posted:There may be a solution.....and this is not a cure all, but it might make some of you cats a little happier with those cars....studying the pics Jr. Junction provided, it looks as if the new Lionel cars are a really dull/satin finish. The pics provided of the prototype ( I hope y’all had permission by the way) clearly show a glossy finish when “in service “ now, that’s clearly the polished stainless gleaming, but I also take note that the stripe has sunlight gleaming off of it, which indicates to me a level of gloss as well......perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there.....don’t cringe!...but a nice thin coat of an automotive clear laid down over the body might bring these cars up a notch for y’all???....at least then when you step back to run your set, this will give some depth of reflections to moderately offset the dullness they clearly have now..........I’m not defending anybody, I’m not taking any sides, just offering a solution......and yes, I could make that happen...........cars kinda look really sharp, they just a little too dull to me......good luck fellas!...hope y’all get happy!.........Pat
Wow, that would take an immense amount of time. Do you tape off every window or tear the car apart and remove the windows(if even possible). I have always found that clearcoating over silver dulls it out even more. Again, I say return them to where you bought them if you are not happy.
jini5 posted:harmonyards posted:There may be a solution.....and this is not a cure all, but it might make some of you cats a little happier with those cars....studying the pics Jr. Junction provided, it looks as if the new Lionel cars are a really dull/satin finish. The pics provided of the prototype ( I hope y’all had permission by the way) clearly show a glossy finish when “in service “ now, that’s clearly the polished stainless gleaming, but I also take note that the stripe has sunlight gleaming off of it, which indicates to me a level of gloss as well......perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there.....don’t cringe!...but a nice thin coat of an automotive clear laid down over the body might bring these cars up a notch for y’all???....at least then when you step back to run your set, this will give some depth of reflections to moderately offset the dullness they clearly have now..........I’m not defending anybody, I’m not taking any sides, just offering a solution......and yes, I could make that happen...........cars kinda look really sharp, they just a little too dull to me......good luck fellas!...hope y’all get happy!.........Pat
Wow, that would take an immense amount of time. Do you tape off every window or tear the car apart and remove the windows(if even possible). I have always found that clearcoating over silver dulls it out even more. Again, I say return them to where you bought them if you are not happy.
To each his own, and that’s fine, was just offering a solution....but to reply to your statements, the cars would be taken apart, masking every window would just be plain dumb. And modern urethane clears would not dull out that silver. It would surely make it pop......you must be thinking of rattle can clears.....that’s kinda last century technology.......but I clearly see your point, the torches are lit, and the mob is forming.....
it was just merely a suggestion.......Pat
albertstrains posted:
Lionel needs to fire all the colour blind executives in charge of production as they have had a very poor record of “getting it right” on some of their recent offerings
Al
Okay,before this thread goes away let me point out that in many cases Lionel uses a painting contract manufacturer for the final finish. And in spite of all the available paint chip resources, in many cases the selected color is the closest color they can find in the PMS (that's Pantone Matching System).
Lou N
palallin posted:Rusty Traque posted:What about all those Lionel catalogs of the 1950's with artist renderings????
Rusty
I can already hear the gasps, the clinking of pitchforks, and the clamor for my hide, but I don't like them at all. I'll take MPC/LTI catalogs. Bob Sherman was an immensely talented man, and his art was wonderful, but I only need to point to the (in)famous black Warbonnets to make my case. Can you imagine the hue and cry today??
Well, the black Warbonnets were a very rare example of a significant error in one of those classic catalogs (caused, allegedly, by a photo in a shadow light condition that made the silver appear black, which photo was given to Bob Sherman; this light phenomenon is not unique).
I think the main factor is that many folks today are far more concerned (some would say hung-up 
) with prototypical accuracy in their trains than people were back in the 50s. There's an excellent publication (don't have the name of the book) that I've seen that discusses and shows photos of the prototypes that inspired various Lionel model trains in the 50s. The Lionel replicas were similar but with varying degrees of accuracy, depending on the model. Many folks today would howl about those variations!
Adherence to realism is OK, though - I like prototypical accuracy, too, and it's irritating when Lionel gets colors wrong (which is getting more common today than in the past). In this case, though, at least as shown in this picture, the Lionel model looks pretty good to me. The CP cars were not glossy silver. If any part of the car appears a little more shiney, it's only the non-corrigated roof on the rear of the observation cars, but even there the metal isn't glossy by any means.
I like the maroon, and dull stainless look of these. They look similar to the finish of the Atlas O Zephyr cars. In my opinion the plated finish is sometimes shiny to the point where they look like they are modeling chrome. Just does not look right to me.
I am concerned about the paint defects in the pictures above, the paint blemishes are a real eye sore. Can anyone give me feedback on the quality control on these passenger cars? I am hoping we don’t have the same disaster as the UP excusion set.
JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:This is a recently released MTH Railking passenger car with a "PLATED BODY FINISH" as advertised in the catalog:
But bear in mind that the roof of this car is flat, not corregated. This roof is less than shiney, and corregated roofs (like the CP cars have) are going to have considerably less sheen this.
Tinplate Art posted:There is no substitute for ACTUAL "boots on the ground" (in the Asian factories) for oversight of specifications compliance. Scott Mann apparently does this with the production of his products.
Even Scott Manns products have issues. My Silver Meteor set is missing steps, had bent steps, and some lose in the box.
JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:Lionel's recently released CP passenger cars.
The color of Canadian Pacific maroon/red looks good.
This is a recently released MTH Railking passenger car with a "PLATED BODY FINISH" as advertised in the catalog:
What's with the smeared and rubbed looking paint on the maroon band and on the silver around the CP logo?
Mine are going for Christine Braden for repaint anyway to VIA Rail. I can no longer wait for manufacturers to make things like VIA, auto train, Amtrak phase III, etc.
INSANITY is ordering BTO trains over and over again and expecting a different result.
WELCOME to the funny farm.
harmonyards posted:jini5 posted:harmonyards posted:There may be a solution.....and this is not a cure all, but it might make some of you cats a little happier with those cars....studying the pics Jr. Junction provided, it looks as if the new Lionel cars are a really dull/satin finish. The pics provided of the prototype ( I hope y’all had permission by the way) clearly show a glossy finish when “in service “ now, that’s clearly the polished stainless gleaming, but I also take note that the stripe has sunlight gleaming off of it, which indicates to me a level of gloss as well......perhaps, and I’m just throwing this out there.....don’t cringe!...but a nice thin coat of an automotive clear laid down over the body might bring these cars up a notch for y’all???....at least then when you step back to run your set, this will give some depth of reflections to moderately offset the dullness they clearly have now..........I’m not defending anybody, I’m not taking any sides, just offering a solution......and yes, I could make that happen...........cars kinda look really sharp, they just a little too dull to me......good luck fellas!...hope y’all get happy!.........Pat
Wow, that would take an immense amount of time. Do you tape off every window or tear the car apart and remove the windows(if even possible). I have always found that clearcoating over silver dulls it out even more. Again, I say return them to where you bought them if you are not happy.
To each his own, and that’s fine, was just offering a solution....but to reply to your statements, the cars would be taken apart, masking every window would just be plain dumb. And modern urethane clears would not dull out that silver. It would surely make it pop......you must be thinking of rattle can clears.....that’s kinda last century technology.......but I clearly see your point, the torches are lit, and the mob is forming.....
it was just merely a suggestion.......Pat
Pat have you applied this modern urethane clear to any of your passenger cars? I would be curious to see an example. I bought the Santa Fe cars and they are way to flat for my liking. I‘ll be taking them apart to paint the interior and add figures. I was also thinking to tint the windows like my CA zephyr cars and a finish that matches the stainless plating on the legacy SF E6’s I have would be great. Thanks
DJ
While I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm reminded of the Lionel Burlington Zephyr set from 1980. The CB&Q F3's were plated. The plating did not hold up well to the touching of oily skin. After 20 or 30 years, they look pretty bad.
Jon 
Dj, Yes I did, I have a set of MTH Railking Empire State Express cars that had that satin flat look to them.....I run the the Railking sized stuff under the tree.....I believe I have before pics as well......I’ll get some pics of them and post them on here...again, as I’ve stated before this is not a cure all, don’t expect a clear to change the silver. It’s still the same silver, it’s just glossy now..........Pat
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