Lionel “Simulated stainless steel metallic finish?” Major disappointment!

Just for the (imperfect) comparison (because these cars have ribbed sides/roofs), and because VistaDomeScott mentioned this model above, this is the metallic finish on the GGD Silver Meteor cars - first photo without flash and second with:

Either way, it photographs as shinier than it looks in person, but is a better effort than anything I have seen from Lionel even where the finish is applied over a metal body. Case in point, the Legacy Pioneer Zephyrs. The TMCC version is die cast with a chrome plated finish that is pure bling:

The Legacy Zephyr is basically a metallic silver finish:

FWIW I don't think a clear coat will make any difference to the reflectivity of the original painted finish. In fact, with some reflective finishes like Alclad II chrome that have to be applied over a gloss black base, a clear coat dulls the finish, reducing it to something like the Legacy Zephyr.

Hancock52 posted:

Just for the (imperfect) comparison (because these cars have ribbed sides/roofs), and because VistaDomeScott mentioned this model above, this is the metallic finish on the GGD Silver Meteor cars - first photo without flash and second with:

Either way, it photographs as shinier than it looks in person, but is a better effort than anything I have seen from Lionel even where the finish is applied over a metal body. Case in point, the Legacy Pioneer Zephyrs. The TMCC version is die cast with a chrome plated finish that is pure bling:

The Legacy Zephyr is basically a metallic silver finish:

FWIW I don't think a clear coat will make any difference to the reflectivity of the original painted finish. In fact, with some reflective finishes like Alclad II chrome that have to be applied over a gloss black base, a clear coat dulls the finish, reducing it to something like the Legacy Zephyr.

I would think the addition of a clear gloss over the silver will result in depth.  I don't think it would effect the "brilliance" of the shine.  Having clear coated base finishes on model planes, trucks and other models, I think there will be depth improvement, but not brighter.

It would be a project, as I think window removal would be easier than masking everything.  Might as well go ahead and add the people while under the hood, so to speak.

At York last October I purchased a pair of special run MTH SF RPOs from Clyde at Stockyard Express.  Last night I grabbed one and put it next to the Sound Dome Car I just received.  The difference was very obvious.  I wish I would have grabbed the phone and shot a picture.  I don't know at this point, what good it would do.  

The set Lionel released is what it is.  Some will probably like the Matte finish, some won't.  The car I received was beautiful and tastefully lettered.  I prefer the shiny look, but would have been OK if I would have ordered the whole set.  I just thought the cars a little too long for my layout, therefore I ordered MTH.

Hancock52 posted:

 

Either way, it photographs as shinier than it looks in person, but is a better effort than anything I have seen from Lionel even where the finish is applied over a metal body. Case in point, the Legacy Pioneer Zephyrs. The TMCC version is die cast with a chrome plated finish that is pure bling:

Wow, that is what I would like to see in future releases. This looks very close to the actual train at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. I assume this its the 3rd Rail Version as the MTH version is a bit duller.

Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

Charlie posted:

Hancock52 posted:

 

Either way, it photographs as shinier than it looks in person, but is a better effort than anything I have seen from Lionel even where the finish is applied over a metal body. Case in point, the Legacy Pioneer Zephyrs. The TMCC version is die cast with a chrome plated finish that is pure bling:

Wow, that is what I would like to see in future releases. This looks very close to the actual train at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. I assume this its the 3rd Rail Version as the MTH version is a bit duller.

Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

You're right about the MTH finish (which is painted) but the above is the Lionel TMCC version, not 3rd Rail's. As you say, the finish on the Lionel version seems very close to the prototype restored and preserved in the Museum of Science and Industry:

3rd Rail's treatment was different again - although I have only seen one of the sets once. I believe that it was nickel plate over brass and had a definite yellow or gold cast to the finish:

3rd Rail has used nickel to simulate polished stainless steel a few times that I know of but it probably is not an option for a full set of cars. 

If you want to know what polished stainless looks like, grab a kitchen utensil.  Half the pots and pans in the world are now stainless, as are knives and forks.

Stainless is slightly darker than bright nickel.

I did a bronze PB with the old "buffable" Testor's stainless.  After light buffing I coated it with Future Floor Wax, as a barrier, then Scale Coat gloss clear.  Finally I polished it with #7 polishing compound.  Results did not perfectly match the nickel silver PA, but it was close enough.

My string of Budd cars include a plated K-Line car and a painted GGD car.  The most realistic to me are the bare polished aluminum cars, although the two mismatched cars look ok in the string.

harmonyards posted:

Dj, Yes I did, I have a set of MTH Railking Empire State Express cars that had that satin flat look to them.....I run the the Railking sized stuff under the tree.....I believe I have before pics as well......I’ll get some pics of them and post them on here...again, as I’ve stated before this is not a cure all, don’t expect a clear to change the silver. It’s still the same silver, it’s just glossy now..........Pat

That would be great thank you

As a comparison, here is my version of The CP Canadian.  Cars are extruded aluminum from 2010.

Im no scale afficianato,, but If I may toss my hat in the ring despite possibly being irrelevant ^^;

When Lionel announced the new Lionchief Super Chief set back in May or March or whatever month it was last year, I was taken aback by the description of the Simulated metal finish on the engine, cars and two add-ons (which I am still hunting for). Needless to say the Super Chief turned me into that 50's kid on Christmas day. Lionel did not disappoint there.

However, this is where I start to see the irrelevancy. Your guys' models are the high-end quality scale models that cost a lung and a liver. Ya'll's trains are made of die-cast metal and steel and alloys and stuff, mine is made of durable plastic (at least I THINK its plastic) ^^;

I dont know how useful this comment will be but I guess even the toys can scale up to the scale models in terms of quality in some areas.

Hancock52 posted:

You're right about the MTH finish (which is painted) but the above is the Lionel TMCC version, not 3rd Rail's. As you say, the finish on the Lionel version seems very close to the prototype restored and preserved in the Museum of Science and Industry:

3rd Rail's treatment was different again - although I have only seen one of the sets once. I believe that it was nickel plate over brass and had a definite yellow or gold cast to the finish:. 

Surely you don't think that the prototype will look like that after ten miles on a real track.  That quickly, that shine will be dulled by a coat of dust.  

Actually, I'm not seeing much difference between the GGD cars (first picture) and the Lionel ones (second picture) in the shine competition. If anything, the Lionel car looks slightly shinier. Don't see much difference with the corrigated portion of the Legacy Zephyr, either (third shot). And the movie of the aluminum Lionel cars shown above was taken in pretty dark lighting conditions. In normal light, they may be almost too shiney to match the prototype. The Lionel cars also appear at least as good as or better than the Atlas O CZ cars in the shine department (bottom shot), as another example. The photos of the polished Zephyr aren't helpful in the comparison, given that ones such as that in the Chicago Museum had a completely different finish than the CP cars.

Bottom line to me is that the Lionel cars could maybe be just a tad more polished, but not much if any, and they still look very close to the prototype, and are at least as good as if not better than the competition. Just my opinion, looking at the photos people have taken.

I don't see the issue, they're shinier than my Atlas Zephyr cars and actually quite nice.

Having spent countless hours acid washing stainless steel passenger cars, the shine does not last long. I understand it might not be what people were expecting/ hoping for, but it looks pretty realistic to me (at least based on the photos I've seen). Only a brand new passenger train or possibly an executive train (BNSF OCS) is going to be much shinier than what these appear to be. 

Will Ebbert posted:

Having spent countless hours acid washing stainless steel passenger cars, the shine does not last long. I understand it might not be what people were expecting/ hoping for, but it looks pretty realistic to me (at least based on the photos I've seen). Only a brand new passenger train or possibly an executive train (BNSF OCS) is going to be much shinier than what these appear to be. 

I see this on the CVSR.  Freshly acid washed cars look pretty dull months later.  I have no issue with the lionel silver.  

I have this finish on my Empire State Express set and they are really nice and do not look like painted plastic.  I think the issue is people are trying to compare this finish with aluminum cars from years back.  They are not trying to be the same.

Personally I would keep the set, it is beautiful, but if the OP is really that disappointed, just return them.  Or get a store credit for something else in the future.  

This is how the finish will be for the foreseeable future on the 21 inch plastic passenger cars.

Personally I think Lionel did OK on these cars. Just compare them to the prototypes posted above.  The finish represents what stainless looks like after its rolled out at the mill. Anything shinier has to be polished. The only cars I am aware of that were polished stainless includes the Texas Special and maybe the Cal Zephyr. Likely a few more I am not aware of. Add to that stainless oxidizes. In a few months the finish would look even duller. MTH and GGDs attempts are nice but way too yellow. Put polished stainless next to chrome and while the variation is noticable, its slight, not as exagerated as these two companies results.

Pete

This car has had over a dozen acid baths over the last two years to get to this point. It's a touch shinier than the Lionel cars, but as soon as it hits the rails it will look just like them. 

SandJam posted:

This is how the finish will be for the foreseeable future on the 21 inch plastic passenger cars.

In that case, they (Lionel) can keep them, or at least those models that are supposed to replicate polished metal finishes. That does not include the UP Excursion cars, which are much more accurate in the dome department than anything else produced to date.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal preference whether you want a shiny metal finish or a poor paint substitute. Speaking purely for myself, I think that whatever paint Lionel's suppliers are using is poor. If you prefer something that looks weathered that's OK by me but I don't see many people wanting simulated dust, grime and corrosion on streamliner cars.

I also don't see either of the main manufacturers producing aluminum body cars ever again; GGD is now the only supplier of 3rail O gauge metal passenger cars but they also use paint for metal. The difference between that and polished aluminum is vast. Case in point is the Texas Special 21" aluminum cars produced by Lionel some 12 years ago, which as far as I am concerned capture the original look of the prototypes. This is the Stephen F. Austin observation car from that set and the only color photo of the prototype I have tracked down:

The third photo is a direct comparison of the aluminum body car with polished fluted panels and the ABS plastic version issued by Lionel in the first run of the ABS plastic cars. Actually, in person there's no comparison as the metal car wins the beauty contest hands down, IMHO. 

A few years ago, GGD produced this fine model of the Santa Fe Great Dome car. The finish simply doesn't approximate polished metal but the other details and workmanship make up for that:

The bottom photo is with flash, the top without.  This illustrates part of the difficulty of making comparisons based on photos posted on a webpage - they won't capture with complete accuracy what a finish really looks like or color differences. Actually, the finish on the Silver Meteor cars is better despite what the photos show as a close similarity. 

FWIW I agree with the OP's reaction to the cars he got. No amount of saying that they look like a car that has seen a certain amount of service really makes up for that. But like I said, it's basically a matter of personal preference.

+1 on what Hancock52 stated and illustrated with the photos, especially the one of the prototype TS observation car.  Do you want a finish comparable to a streamliner finish as produced in the '50s, or a 60-70 year old version of the finish?

Do you want a finish comparable to a car primped and preened still in the shop, or a 60-70 MINUTE old version once out of the shop and on the rails?

Norton posted:

MTH and GGDs attempts are nice but way too yellow.

Pete

Pete brings up a good point here, and not to hi-jack this thread, but the importance of shine as well as COLOR (maybe more) should also enter into this discussion.

Case in point, the first run of the GGD 1937 Santa Fe Super Chief were way too yellow…  (Thanks to all the “Expert Railroader Advise” Scott got on that project…” From now on just let Jonathan do the research, as I trust him MUCH more then the so-called “experts”.

In any case, Scott does indeed have a decision to make regarding the upcoming Santa Fe E1. Does he make them correct, which will then NOT match the cars mentioned above, or does he match the finish of the incorrect cars, thus making the engine match the cars, but now with an incorrect finish? Interesting decision for sure.

Charlie

So far after 3 pages of posts trying to figure out what Lionel meant by " simulated stainless steel metallic finish" all I can say is the CP cars look like the ones presented in the catalog. To me simulated SS metallic finish is painted plastic. Whether the paint is glossy, semi gloss, satin or flat it is going to be "simulated SS metallic finish". Lionel did not mislead anyone, cut costs by using satin paint or anything else they delivered what was catalogued. 

If the OP is dissatisfied with his purchase he should return it to Charles Ro. I don't think they will have any problems reselling them. But before he does so he should think about the pluses of these cars 1. They are 21" full scale. 2. They don't flicker their lights like other brands of passenger cars. 3. They are easy to disassemble to put passengers in. 4. They are close coupling. If I was Charles Ro however I would no longer accept preorders from him but that's just me not Charles Ro.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do if it was me I'd keep them and think about the good stuff you got.

JohnB

Will Ebbert posted:

This car has had over a dozen acid baths over the last two years to get to this point. It's a touch shinier than the Lionel cars, but as soon as it hits the rails it will look just like them. 

It's also a 60+ year old, ridden hard and put up wet for most of those years, finish.

This is what 99% of cars looked like at the factory. Taken a month BEFORE going into service. Polishing would have been an extra cost option which I believe few roads opted for. The nameplate is polished. The rest of the body does not compare.

Pete

Hancock52 posted:

SandJam posted:

This is how the finish will be for the foreseeable future on the 21 inch plastic passenger cars.

In that case, they (Lionel) can keep them, or at least those models that are supposed to replicate polished metal finishes. That does not include the UP Excursion cars, which are much more accurate in the dome department than anything else produced to date.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal preference whether you want a shiny metal finish or a poor paint substitute. Speaking purely for myself, I think that whatever paint Lionel's suppliers are using is poor. If you prefer something that looks weathered that's OK by me but I don't see many people wanting simulated dust, grime and corrosion on streamliner cars.

I also don't see either of the main manufacturers producing aluminum body cars ever again; GGD is now the only supplier of 3rail O gauge metal passenger cars but they also use paint for metal. The difference between that and polished aluminum is vast. Case in point is the Texas Special 21" aluminum cars produced by Lionel some 12 years ago, which as far as I am concerned capture the original look of the prototypes. This is the Stephen F. Austin observation car from that set and the only color photo of the prototype I have tracked down:

The third photo is a direct comparison of the aluminum body car with polished fluted panels and the ABS plastic version issued by Lionel in the first run of the ABS plastic cars. Actually, in person there's no comparison as the metal car wins the beauty contest hands down, IMHO. 

A few years ago, GGD produced this fine model of the Santa Fe Great Dome car. The finish simply doesn't approximate polished metal but the other details and workmanship make up for that:

The bottom photo is with flash, the top without.  This illustrates part of the difficulty of making comparisons based on photos posted on a webpage - they won't capture with complete accuracy what a finish really looks like or color differences. Actually, the finish on the Silver Meteor cars is better despite what the photos show as a close similarity. 

FWIW I agree with the OP's reaction to the cars he got. No amount of saying that they look like a car that has seen a certain amount of service really makes up for that. But like I said, it's basically a matter of personal preference.

There is no argument that the aluminum cars have a much shinier/polished finish and historically for Lionel have been real beauties.  But you can't try to compare them.  The aluminum days are over for Lionel.   Just can't do that with plastic.  Just like they make stainless steel spray paint for sale, when you spray it, it is stainless steel color, not finish.  

But I will say the finish on the Lionel 21 inch cars is very nice and does have a certain look that does simulate stainless steel. 

I think maybe you were expecting a metalized type of finish, instead of the more flatter finish.  It did not say shiny or metallic finish, just stainless steel simulated.  This has been the finish since the 21" cars were released a few years ago.   So there is no deception here.  Just a mistaken perception I think.

I think your cars are very nice.  But if you were after a specific finish and it does not satisfy, just return them and note that for any future buys.  I am sure someone else will snatch them up.

Preorders are always a gamble.

Dave45681 posted:

Not to defend it, and I can see the disappointment (sorry you are not happy with your train - that always sucks!), but if Lionel was actually going to plate them for real, I would assume they would be sure to brag about that in the catalog text. 

The fact that it said "simulated" metal finish would have made me immediately assume it would be painted.

Agreed the MTH plating is nice.  It's apparently a huge deal to get that right though (or at least it was years ago).  I recall a discussion with am MTH rep at York (possibly around the time the AEM-7 "toasters" with passenger cars and/or the Plated R11/R34 subway sets came out) stating how difficult the process had been.  Maybe it got better in terms of producibility though , because they seem to still offer items from time to time.

-Dave

I disagree the engines are labeled the same in their catalog and they don’t even match that, this is clearly a satin silver finish.

Charlie posted:

Norton posted:

MTH and GGDs attempts are nice but way too yellow.

Pete

Pete brings up a good point here, and not to hi-jack this thread, but the importance of shine as well as COLOR (maybe more) should also enter into this discussion.

Case in point, the first run of the GGD 1937 Santa Fe Super Chief were way too yellow…  (Thanks to all the “Expert Railroader Advise” Scott got on that project…” From now on just let Jonathan do the research, as I trust him MUCH more then the so-called “experts”.

In any case, Scott does indeed have a decision to make regarding the upcoming Santa Fe E1. Does he make them correct, which will then NOT match the cars mentioned above, or does he match the finish of the incorrect cars, thus making the engine match the cars, but now with an incorrect finish? Interesting decision for sure.

Charlie

I would hope they would match the unreleased set of passenger cars. If not, really no point in offering both at the same time.

Can someone place one of these cars next to one of the recent Legacy Alco PAs?

Here is a screenshot from the video Eric S. produced.  I have these engines and I was pleased with the finish.

Is the post above correct are there two different finishes between the cars and recent locomotives?

thanks very much

kevin

JOHNB 👍🏼 - nailed it

T4TT posted:

Can someone place one of these cars next to one of the recent Legacy Alco PAs?

Here is a screenshot from the video Eric S. produced.  I have these engines and I was pleased with the finish.

Is the post above correct are there two different finishes between the cars and recent locomotives?

thanks very much

kevin

No image in your post, says Image Not Found.

I don't have the new SF Alco PA, but I do have the new SF F-3 for comparison. Looks like a pretty good match to me.

justin p posted:

Now that is one attractive looking car!

SandJam posted:

Hancock52 posted:

SandJam posted:

This is how the finish will be for the foreseeable future on the 21 inch plastic passenger cars.

In that case, they (Lionel) can keep them, or at least those models that are supposed to replicate polished metal finishes. That does not include the UP Excursion cars, which are much more accurate in the dome department than anything else produced to date.

Ultimately, it's a matter of personal preference whether you want a shiny metal finish or a poor paint substitute. Speaking purely for myself, I think that whatever paint Lionel's suppliers are using is poor. If you prefer something that looks weathered that's OK by me but I don't see many people wanting simulated dust, grime and corrosion on streamliner cars.

I also don't see either of the main manufacturers producing aluminum body cars ever again; GGD is now the only supplier of 3rail O gauge metal passenger cars but they also use paint for metal. The difference between that and polished aluminum is vast. Case in point is the Texas Special 21" aluminum cars produced by Lionel some 12 years ago, which as far as I am concerned capture the original look of the prototypes. This is the Stephen F. Austin observation car from that set and the only color photo of the prototype I have tracked down:

The third photo is a direct comparison of the aluminum body car with polished fluted panels and the ABS plastic version issued by Lionel in the first run of the ABS plastic cars. Actually, in person there's no comparison as the metal car wins the beauty contest hands down, IMHO. 

A few years ago, GGD produced this fine model of the Santa Fe Great Dome car. The finish simply doesn't approximate polished metal but the other details and workmanship make up for that:

The bottom photo is with flash, the top without.  This illustrates part of the difficulty of making comparisons based on photos posted on a webpage - they won't capture with complete accuracy what a finish really looks like or color differences. Actually, the finish on the Silver Meteor cars is better despite what the photos show as a close similarity. 

FWIW I agree with the OP's reaction to the cars he got. No amount of saying that they look like a car that has seen a certain amount of service really makes up for that. But like I said, it's basically a matter of personal preference.

There is no argument that the aluminum cars have a much shinier/polished finish and historically for Lionel have been real beauties.  But you can't try to compare them.  The aluminum days are over for Lionel.   Just can't do that with plastic.  Just like they make stainless steel spray paint for sale, when you spray it, it is stainless steel color, not finish.  

But I will say the finish on the Lionel 21 inch cars is very nice and does have a certain look that does simulate stainless steel. 

I think maybe you were expecting a metalized type of finish, instead of the more flatter finish.  It did not say shiny or metallic finish, just stainless steel simulated.  This has been the finish since the 21" cars were released a few years ago.   So there is no deception here.  Just a mistaken perception I think.

I think your cars are very nice.  But if you were after a specific finish and it does not satisfy, just return them and note that for any future buys.  I am sure someone else will snatch them up.

Preorders are always a gamble.

Does anyone know when those "breaker bars" were added to the Santa Fe Big Domes?  The Golden Gate Depot model has them and the Lionel model does not.  I have seen the as-delivered photos and other 1950's photos of the Big Domes without the "breaker bars," so my guess is that they were added sometime in the 1960's.  Does anyone know?

BNSF-Matt posted:

I don't have the new SF Alco PA, but I do have the new SF F-3 for comparison. Looks like a pretty good match to me.

 

If the F unit is new Lionel production with a simulated Stainless steel finish, the cars should match the panel between the door and the end of the car body? 

Perception of color is a funny thing.  The body of the F unit and body of the passenger car do not look the same to me.  I suppose it is one of those "eye of the beholder" circumstances.  Or maybe it is a function of lighting or maybe they are really not the same color.  

Norton posted:

This is what 99% of cars looked like at the factory. Taken a month BEFORE going into service. Polishing would have been an extra cost option which I believe few roads opted for. The nameplate is polished. The rest of the body does not compare.

Pete

The difference can be seen here.

Some finishes may appear to have a bit more of a metallic shine than the painted plastic cars, but in many cases the differences aren't all that much.

2011@2x.jpg" />

OK....this thread just keeps going on and on about the dissatisfaction of the finish of the cars and has really gone well beyond the OP's original post.  So how many more posts do we need here that are all about the same....?  None.....  If you want to have a discussion about stainless steel finishes on passenger cars, then someone needs to start a thread with that as the topic.  This thread was supposed to be about the finish of a specific set of cars but has evolved far from that.....