Lionel 'Smithsonian' Dreyfus & 13 cars

The cars were mostly built by Fine Art Models, but there were I believe a few extra built after the initial run. I worked with a large group of these last year with Stout Auctions. In my research we confirmed with Fine Arts that there were twenty two different cars produced. Individual cars were selling last year for anywhere between $450 and $700 plus tax and buyers premium. $450 was a deal considering that originally the cars were $775 a pop. Here is a list of the twenty two cars.

Imperial Castle, Century Club, City of Chicago, Cascade Grotto, Cascade Glory, Car number 680, Imperial Mansion, Imperial Garden, Westchester County , Car number 5020, Imperial Palace, Century Tavern, City of Indianapolis,  Manhattan Island, Cascade Valley, Thousand Islands, Car Number 681, Number 684, Imperial Falls

Imperial Fountain, City of Detroit, City of Toledo.  Hope this adds some insight.

 

Derek

No, but whatever that guy is smokin' sure is 

This is a beautiful set.....I am lucky in that I own the locomotive paired with the scale Weaver cars that were made around that time.  The paint matches very nicely!

 

Alan

Back then, the 2 rail version was considered the finest O scale model ever. But today, I find it a tad ridiculous to pay that much for an engine with VERY primitive electronics in it, even with all the brass detail, opening hatches, and matching cars.

Here is a link to the brochure.

 

www.kohs.com/PDFs/Lionel%20Passenger%20Car%20Brochure.pdf

 

There are 2 sets of 13 passenger cars.

Even serial number engines have eastbound passenger cars.

Odd serial number engines have westbound passenger cars.

Page 5 of the brochure gives a good breakdown.

 

The 2-rail Dreyfuss Hudson (6-18026)(1992) have roadnumbers 5450, 5451, 5452, 5453, or 5454.

The 3-rail Dreyfuss Hudson (6-18027 or 6-18029)(1993) has roadnumber 5450.

 

edited to include 5450 for 18026

I am curious if anyone has both the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfuss and the more recent 3rd Rail Dreyfuss, how do the two compare?

 

Pete

Once you pass the three grand mark, it probably matters not how much you pay for these things.  Just load them up in your Learjet and take them home.  Or ship them with the 1950 Lincoln you bought at Barrett- Jackson for a hundred grand.  Then convert them to three rail when you get them home - what the heck?

A Dreyfus Hudson is one of the few locos on my list I have not acquired, and I would love to have that spectacular 13-car set, but I saw it on e-bay and passed for a number of reasons, including that's just more money than it's worth to me.

At one time I had two of the Dreyfus Hudsons.  When Lionel first announced them, you had to enter a lottery to be chosen to be able to buy one of the I believe 750 three rail versions to be made.  So, both my wife and I entered.  Guess what, we were both chosen!  

 

She kept hers sealed in the boxes while I opened mine.  It is just as beautiful as all have said, but was a disappointment as a runner.  Of course this was in pre-TMCC days, so no command control.  But she was very light, seems there was little ballast put in and without traction tires, would pull only a small number of cars.  

 

I did later purchase the 3rd Rail set of 1930's 20th Century Limited cars, but ironically they are very heavy, so much so that only a twin motored diesel will pull them on my layout.  No chance I could ever pull them with the Hudson!

 

And finally, a few years ago, my wife decided to sell her, still unopened loco, so the one remaining Dreyfus now sits in a proud display with my 700E and an OO gauge Hudson.

The Fine Arts 20th Century and Broadway Limited cars were extremely well detailed and extremely heavy.  While the NYC cars were accurate, the PRR cars were not true to the prototype as they were simply copies of the NYC ones.  The worst car was the lounge - the PRR and NYC took delivery of totally different lounge cars - strikingly different window and floor plan arrangements.  The Fine Arts Broadway observation car was also incorrect in a subtle way due to differences in the two railroad's perspectives for views for their premium passengers. NYC had Pullman build the car so that the aisle side was on the right.  That way a passenger sitting in the luxury Master Bedroom could see the Hudson River views from their widow as the train ran westbound to Chicago in the early evening.  The PRR had Pullman build the observation car with the aisle on the left, so that its passenger's view from the room wouldn't be blocked by trains running in the opposite direction.

 

The new GGD 38 Broadway passenger cars are being built to Pullman Co. plans for the PRR specific cars and will not simply be NYC clones.  They also will be available at a much more affordable price.

 

Ed Rappe 

We have both the K4 and Hudson in stock

>>>the one remaining Dreyfus now sits in a proud display with my 700E and an OO gauge Hudson.<<

 

I have that engine on the wall (poster) hanging behind the only two Lionel modern era engines worthy of a display shelf. The 1-700e from 1990, (Lionels best work)and the very last engine Lionel manufactured before the lights went out,.  the #759 Berk. Lionel handed out that poster that should have been given to thase who bought the Dreyfus. It was free to anyone who attended the Lionel stamp signing event at the factory way back in 1998.

BTW, I see that engine as just one of the many overpriced instant collectables, now gone obsolete having little to no real aftermarket collector value.

Joe  

  

Interior detail on the cars was truly outstanding.  I think the window shades were photo etched metal.  There was a pair of the sets on display at CarRail.  It was funny to see the scale wheel sets barely able to stay on the hi rail track built into the wall display shelf.

My buddy had a few of the cars and you're right,  they're downright beautiful. Probably still the best cars made to date in O guage.

But, like the Koh's Dreyfus, the cars were made by Fine Art, not Lionel.

No different then believing a Trainworks station packaged in a Lionel box today is a Lionel station.   

I think whatever aftermarket value they have credits them not Lionel.

Joe

My understanding was that each of the NYC cars were built off of their individual blue prints, including the undercarriage detail.  If battery box was in a specific place for just one of the cars in real life, the model reflected it.  The diaphragms on these models are simply amazing,including details such as fold down steps.

 

We have the poster hanging here in my train room/office and it's a beauty. Didn't get this one for free however...

 

Above: "In O scale one mostly pays for the minute details rather than the electronics and operating characteristics of a locomotive and/or cars to go with it."

 

Oh? Really? There's a thing that we O-scalers do, en masse? Well, I personally care how

my equipment behaves, not just how it looks (this statement can be interpreted in a manner not germane to the subject!)  

 

This is a modeling format that also has many of us salivating over the new WBB Ten-Wheeler, which certainly does not have detailing or accuracy as its strong suits. Runs

well, though, and costs a buck-and-a-half.

 

"We in O-scale" do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons, often bad.

So, speak for yourself. 

As the person who bought the 22 cars from Stout, plus 7 others at the same auction I can say they still are the most amazing passenger cars built in any scale except the 1/32 models of the same two trains made by FAM. I've bought about another 10 cars since.  Until the Key CZ cars materialize there is just nothing that comes close.

 

Interestingly, the person who was bidding against me contacted me and in the end he got 12 cars of the 29 I bought that day all of the same serial number (I was missing the second matching diner).  He is a true Dreyfus Hudson nut even buying a 1/12 scale model built from scratch by a person who worked on them for the NYC and after he died someone else turned it into a masterpiece, just an absolute masterpiece.

 

After all was said an done I paid ~$515/car delivered.  The $800 shipping charge caught me off guard but they were delivered by a delivery service not a common carrier.  Given how much the unfinished and undecorated Wasatch UP cars and the PRB Super Chief cars go for I'm happy with what I got.

 

There were 500 Lionel 13 car sets made as described above and they are all 2-rail.  There were likewise 500 2-rail Hudsons with, I think, 4 different numbers (51-54).  To buy the cars you had to buy the locomotive.  There were also some number of 3-rail Hudsons built.  Jerry has at least one of each and he says he never paid more than $1500 for any of them.

 

FAM also made 500 13 cars sets in addition to the Lionel sets. These are the ones in the green FAM packaging.  FAM also planned to make 500 sets of Broadway cars but they were never completed.  As Keystone Ed stated the Lounge car and the Observation cars were not correct so FAM and the builder parted ways with the Diner and RPO never being made.  I also have 3 of the Broadway cars and while I like them the best they will not match the upcoming GGD cars as the paint is very subdued on the FAM cars.

 

IMO the current listing on Ebay is overboard.  I would say a C-9 or better set with all matching serial numbers would be worth ~$10K.  And it goes down from there.  Maybe it's a divorce thing and the guy doesn't really want to sell them.  Not to say someone might not pony up but they haven't done their homework and...

 

I always have to laugh at these what's it worth posts. Value = what someone is willing to pay for something at any given time. No more, no less. There are plenty of O scale modelers out there that can drop $20k and not think twice about it. If it was something they really wanted and didn't want to take the time to piece it together (because their time is probably worth quite a bit more than $20k) then why not? The only people that ever seem to make issue of what someone pays for something like this are people that couldn't afford it in the first place. I have friends that will go drop $50k in one trip to Vegas. If they were train nuts they could have this set and $30k left in their pockets. It is all relative. I hope it sells. So should everyone else that owns them ;-)

I have Smithsonian Hudson 5453 in 2 rail but no cars. The engine is the most accurately modeled steam locomotive I have ever seen, even to the brake rigging. It runs "OK". The wires and engine to tender plugs are junk. The Dallee sound system is barely audible. I have never used smoke in mine so do not know if or how well that works. There were several engineering choices re the mechanicals that I would have made differently, such as having to remove the tender shell to replace the sound system batteries. The engine came with a "lifetime warranty to the original purchaser". When I needed a few parts, I was told that responsibility for the warranty was "transferred" to someone in New Jersey, who had few parts and was of no help. So much for that Lionel guarantee...

However, no other Dreyfuss to date can touch either the accuracy or the detail, and I do not think anything new will equal it. So I am pleased that I have one.

>>>I have Smithsonian Hudson 5453 in 2 rail but no cars. The engine is the most accurately modeled steam locomotive I have ever seen, even to the brake rigging. It runs "OK". The wires and engine to tender plugs are junk. The Dallee sound system is barely audible. I have never used smoke in mine so do not know if or how well that works<<

 

I think your opinion would change if Lionel were ever to to make a VL Dreyfus.

Joe

For those of you who were actually tempted,  the seller has re-listed and lowered the price to (a more reasonable?) $12,000 or Make Offer

 

Yep, saw the other night he re-listed it at $13K and now I guess made another reduction to $12K. Being that 10K or less seems to be the actual value of these sets I'd say it's still overpriced.

 

I wonder if this thread is why he lowered the price? 

Only in today's world  of inflated currencies/paper assets would 168/500 still be considered a "collectible/rare (or bla, bla bla) item." Weren't the early 1.0 Premiers manufactured in pretty much those numbers?

 

Mont Blanc tried that marketing scheme in the go-go preY2K era with some of their annual 500+/$500+ editions and were eventually laughed out Stateside. And that was  when an average Joe could easily make that with just 2 phone calls/week trading dot.com paper!

 

 

You can have detail and features or pulling power but not both. Neither this engine or the brass 3rd Rail Dreyfuss can pull the full compliment of scale cars. They look great on the shelf though.

 

Pete

We still have both engines in stock

 Geez Sam (and others) if you need some where to run them for testing, bring them over for a stretch!!!

Robert E,

 

How does one identify a Williams Masterpiece series Hudson?  Information on the box?  Engine numbers?   Are they only 3 rail models?

 

Now on Ebay there is a Williams Hudson with the cab number of 5430.  And it is identified as a Crown Edition model. Is this one of these Masterpiece models? 

 

Thanks in advance,

Steve

 

Question about this recently ended auction for whats advertised as 18026 2 rail, with a cab number of 5450. Thought two rail versions came as 5451, 5452, 5453 or 5354 ?

 

Lionel 18026 Dreyfuss Hudson

 

ed h

Good find.

I edited my post above to include.