Lionel SP GS-6 - answer from Lionel

That is the stock answer for many inquiries.

 

Rusty

Based on conversations on this forum, I am guessing that the GS-6 will be a GS-2 painted black, with the tender from K-line tooling with the latest motor and electronics. The lettering can be redone so its not a deal breaker for me. The lack of smoke features is more problematic. I have the earlier GS-64, and love it. However, I am disappointed in their "business decision " not to fix discrepancies released earlier in this engine and up grade it with vision line features as promised.  So I guess if I find one for the right price later on I will buy it.

Given the other option, which would be to make an answer up (basically lie!) we provide you with the facts. The facts are we do not know, yet. Until we actually see the model and can confidently confirm or deny what you are asking, you will get the answer which is TRUE. Sorry it is not the answer you wanted. Mike Lionel

I was furious when the MP FA's were cancelled.I pre-ordered four ABA sets! 

It is simply a question of how much you want to invest.  You are all very lucky to be in the 3-rail community where fairly realistic models are now the order of the day.  Die cast and volume keep your price structure below the $1500mark.

 

If you really want an accurate GS-6, you have a specialty model - a GS-2 with an enclosed cab.  That market is probably smaller than either the GS-2 or the GS-4, so either your price goes way up or you get to overlook some small stuff.

 

If you want truly accurate models,the move to 2-rail scale is the way to go, but be advised that the more accurate models start at twice what you are used to paying, and do not typically run as well as 3- rail models.  An accurate Northern type cannot tolerate much less than O-144 curves.

 

All opinion, especially that comment about which runs better.  Good luck in your quest for dead-on models - makes it easier for us to convert them to 2-rail.

It seems like we are all in the trick bag.  Lionel can't say with certainty which features an engine will have/not have or what it will definitively look like.  To their credit, Lionel does answer emails promptly and Mike R. participates on the forum!  But, as a consumer, I am hard pressed to commit to spending $1100.00 without the facts, so I have learned not to pre-order anything. Of course, if there are not enough pre-orders, there is the distinct possibility that the toy won't be produced.  I am relatively new to the hobby, but I have learned that catalogs are nothing to get your hopes up over and they don't contain products but rather possibilities and approximations.  In terms of this engine, it is a moot point for me because I am not purchasing it because it lacks the steam whistle and is priced as if it did have an extra smoke feature (a topic thoroughly beat to death on other threads).  While I am not interested in this engine, I am interested in the process of designing, pricing, producing, and marketing a toy train.

 

Speaking as someone outside the industry, I really do not understand the production process or the marketing strategy at work here.  It seems reasonable that a company have some level of design and pre-production completed before a product is marketed.  For example, I still don't understand how there was no mention of the fact that the Berkshires from '12 Vol I did not have the steam whistle until they were purchased by consumers.  Even if marketing precedes design and production (which seems backwards to me), it seems reasonable to expect that Lionel would have realized this before the engines left China, and released this information on their home page or on FB before consumers purchased them.  Is that an unreasonable expectation?  In terms of the lettering on GS-6, I believe it is reasonable that they do not know at this point.  But I would hope that they would take a corrective action if the engines were not too far along in production and or provide feedback to their customers as soon as the facts were available.  They did respond to the numbering issue on the Mohawks after all!  Ultimately, the process really bothers me because I want Lionel to be successful (for selfish reasons because I want them to continue to make great toys like the ATSF 2-10-10-2, the 4-8-4 Northern, and the Chilsholm Trail cattle car).

 

In the end, they are just expensive toys.  If the engine I want makes it to market and has the features I want, looks like I want, and is priced at a level commensurate with its features I will buy it.  If it does not ship the way I want it or if it does not ship at all, I will wait six years for Lionel to re-issue it or I will buy the engine from MTH.  Either way, I still have many fun toys to play with.

 

Mike, thanks for chiming in here on the forum.  Your participation here is greatly appreciated, and the work you've done to bolster Lionel's customer service reputation is second to none in the industry right now. 

 

However, please take my comments here within as much a professional framework as I can state them here. As a former executive with whom I worked in my former corporate life would often say in staff meetings... "I hope we're all wearing our 'big boys' and 'big girls' pants today, because what I'm about to say isn't gonna go down easy." 

 

For Lionel -- or ANY importer for that matter -- to answer basic questions like that of the OP's with an answer such as, "The facts are we do not know, yet", is absolutely, without a doubt, completely unacceptable.  Each and every product that Lionel catalogs should have a product manager here in the States who pretty much knows everything there is to know about the products for which he or she is responsible.  This should be true whether the product is manufactured domestically or overseas.  (In actual practice, I fully expect that said person (or people) would have MULTIPLE products for which they are responsible.)

 

I find this whole concept of... "we don't know yet until we see a model" absolutely ridiculous.  I mean... really???  Who's DESIGNING these products?  Lionel?  Or the Asian manufacturers???  And if it's not Lionel, then I guess that's just one more reason why we've come to view corporations here in the states as a mere "shell" of what they once were.

 

I get the fact that manufacturing has moved overseas so companies can stay competitive.  But have we now even outsourced the design and specification process, so that nobody here in the States knows ANYTHING until the production sample arrives from China even though images and/or illustrations are depicted in catalogs?  In my very simplistic mind, I would have at least thought that a product manager here in the States researches various prototype details and specs-out various features, detail levels and/or graphics that will ultimately be produced in the final product.  Sure, it's natural that along the product's overall timeline some MINOR tweaking may occur.  And in that spirit, any early answers to questions would always be couched with the disclaimer that "Lionel reserves the right to make changes to it's catalog descriptions, blah, blah, blah...".

 

That much we would expect and completely understand.  But by providing SOME in-depth answers to admittedly VERY basic questions, the importers would at least be conveying the PERCEPTION that (1) they know what they're doing, (2) they're driving the bus WRT design specs, and (3) they really have their hands on the pulse of the relationship between importer and manufacturer -- which admittedly carries its own set of challenges in this era of globalization.

 

But quite frankly, when I here product marketing folks tell us, "we don't know until we see a product sample", when asked such basic questions, I simply C-R-I-N-G-E.    I would expect that answer from a rookie who just walked in off the street -- but that's in no way shape or form a professional response from a seasoned and veteran marketing professional.  On the contrary, it's their JOB to know the answer to that question if they're asking clients to spend big $$$ on this stuff. 

 

I realize I'm "old school" in terms of how stuff gets done in today's corporate world.  But honestly, whether the folks who man the "talk to us" email inbox fall within marketing or customer service on the org chart, they need a crash-course in how to answer questions professionally and authoritatively, so that folks asking the question feel like somebody on the other end actually knows what the he!! they're actually talking about.

 

David

David, point taken. Our project managers should know the requested design to the factory. I will ask and post the answer to the original question. For the most part we get what we spec, although sometimes errors do happen.

Thanks Jon!  Very much appreciate your quick response... and once again, we definitely appreciate Lionel's presence on the OGR forum!!!  Your comments and insights are always welcome.

 

David

David - well said, I felt like I had to buy the box to find out what was in it!!!!

 

Jon - Thankyou for the response and I look forward to the answer. 

 

Joe

The factory just advised me that the artwork is not yet complete, thus the tender can be appropriately lettered. From my quick research, it appears "Southern Pacific Lines" is correct for the GS-6. I will send a note to marketing and advise them of my research and your comments and I am hopeful that the product will be as expected.

Jon, Both SP Lines and SP are correct depending on era.

As built 1943:

 

Sometime around 1946 it was changed to this style:

 

 

 

The question arose because the catalog pictured neither of these. Whatever Lionel chooses to release some will be pleased and others not so much depending on what era we model

 

 

 

Pete

Pete,

Thanks I was scanning pictures and getting ready to post, but you beat me to it.

 

Jon,

At this point I don't care wich one we get. Others might have different opinions. Lets just make sure that if you do put "Southern Pacific Lines" on it that it looks like Pete's picture above. (same place as the daylight GS-2 shown on the catalog page). By the way the black GS-2 is wrong as well. Also thanks for getting back with us.

 

Joe

Paging Todd Wagner! 

After double checking with Lionel marketing, the model is going to be made as the "as preserved" version, therefore the catalog photo is correct as specified for production.

Simple, if your "modeling era" is PRIOR to 1946, the model should reflect the "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering, with the Train Number Indicator boards in the forward location.

 

If you model AFTER 1946, the large "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" lettering is correct, with the more rearward location of the Train Number Indicator boards.

 

Also, a train number should be shown in the Indicator boards.

Jon:

Your font is wrong on your picture in the catalog. You can go on the web and see many pictures of the 4460 preserved at the the museum. And the font on there engine does not match your picture in the magazine. Even if they did - They screwed up!!!!!!!(Look where it lines up on the tender - look at the height). You can see so many photos of the correct font/size in Robert Churchs Book and you already have done it in in 2005 on the Cab forward - Just cut and paste!!!!The Correct font is shown in Pete's photo above (bottom Picture).

 

I give up. I quess I can put my $1100 to somthing else. 

Joe

Hot Water:

Actually the GS-6 was delivered with the number indicator borads in the rearward location as shown in the catalog. All prior classes were not. There are several as delivered pictures in Church's book. But your lettering comments above are correct.

The items depicted in the catalog are often prototype or mockup pictures and can be "subject to changes in price, design, color, size, and availability." Until we have viewed a sample of this product, we do not have more information at this time.

 

Lettering is important, but not as important as whistle steam.

 

Scrappy

Jon:

 

I see, don't ask Lionel anymore question because you have no idea

I agree 1,000%.  However, with many of these locos due for delivery in JAN 2013, I'm pretty certain that train has already left the station without the steam effects features.  

 

David

With that kind of fine print this guy is leaving the station

Can't say I blame anyone.  If Lionel continues with production volumes it originally planned for these locomotives amidst all the back-lash (from this forum alone), then the marketing folks haven't learned a darn thing.  Should be interesting to see how the delivery/pricing of these steamers ultimately plays out.

 

David

While I do not understand Lionel's process for bringing product to market (concept-design-development-pricing-marketing-prodcution), I accept that the catalog is not the definitive source of information about their products.  I understand I will likely have to wait for others to buy Lionel's engines and post info on this forum before I buy one.  Hopefully others will pre-order without all the facts so that the engines I want get produced.  Lionel does post product spotlights on their blog and occasional pics on FB.  To their credit Jon and Mike do participate on the forum as well. 

 

When Lionel ships products that have the features I want, look like I want them to, and are priced appropriately, I will buy them.  It is what it is.  No sense getting bent about, it won't change anything.

Absolutely RIDICULES! You mean if you received a "SUOTHERN PACIFIC" lettered model with "whistle steam", you would be happy?

 

I'll take CORRECT details over "whistle steam" and "swinging bells" any time! 

Okay, in that case the lettering would matter to me.  But, if spelled properly I would not be concerned about whether the tender had Southern Pacific or Southern Pacific Lines.  This engine may ship perfectly faithful to the prototypical engine, but I am not buying one because it does not have whistle steam (at the current MSRP).  That's just me, I am not a purist, I am just a big kid that likes playing with expensive toy trains.  There is not much more fun for me in this hobby than quiling the whistle while it blasts "steam".  Throw in a swinging bell and I am all in.  My VL ATSF 3000 is my absolute favorite engine to play with!  When/if they get blown out, I may sing a different tune, but this whistle steam-less engine is only worth 900 bucks to me.

Really? Shouldn't you expect more from a product you paid over a grand for?






       

Should I expect more, yes I should but that will only lead to frustration.  I accept it what for what it is.  I don't want to let something out of my control diminish the pleasure I get from playing with my toy trains.  I could focus on what I perceive to be wrong with Lionel, or I can focus on what they do right, and how much fun my Vision Line ATSF 3000 provides me.  I prefer the latter.

Now that's a ridicules comment.

 

Doug

Hmmm....  This sounds vaguely like a comment by a statesperson a few years ago heard on the gnus..."We have to pass this bill before we'll know what's in it!"  

 

Didn't make sense to a common person such as moi back then.  The Lionel response is equally confusing.

 

However, I must tell you that this sort of thinking is not unique to the toy train industry.  I once attended a production start-up meeting at a plant (automotive component) where the plant manager commented to the senior product engineer after some discussion regarding the plant's inability to manufacture a critical component to the tolerances of the drawing specs...and I quote "An engineering drawing is but a suggestion of how something is to be made!" 

 

Aye-ya. 

 

KD

 

P.S. - Both plant and product in the above example were short-lived.  Little wonder.

   

 

 

Who is running the show here?  Lionel or the manufacturer in China?  The fact that the company selling these items has no idea what they will be selling until the exporter supplies them with product says a lot.  This is one of the problems with manufacturing goods 8000 miles away -- you have ZERO control in the making of your product.

If I am paying a grand or more for an engine it's most basic details must be correct, and lettering is a very basic but highly visible detail.  Get the lettering wrong and it will glare at you all day every day.  But accepting incorrect lettering as long as it has an operational feature....??? Really???.....Heck with that outlook Lionel can turn out what ever it wants as long as it has whistle steam, or a blow down effect, or ash pan glow.  Get the basics correct first and then add the wow effects.  We are talking about a good chunk of change here.

Yeah - and there are competent painters who can make the lettering anything you want for a fraction of the cost of this model.  I do not give a fig for operating bells and whistles, but if all I was concerned about was paint and lettering, i would not hesitate to repaint and reletter to get what I want.  Opinion.

bob2,

That is what I had in mind.  If my interet in this hobby ever takes a turn for absoulute fidelity to the protoype, then I could have a tender repainted.  Personally, I hope I never take this hobby that seriously, for I fear I would never be happy with any engine, and that would kill the fun for me.  If I had to have absoulte fidelity over play factor I would buy 3rd Rail engines and not Legacy.  But for me the amazing detail on the 3rd Rail engines does not trump the play features and operational smoothness of Legacy. 

 

I don't think adding whistle steam or a swinging bell is something I or anyone would be able to add to a Legacy engine.  I believe there is a company that can add it to MTH engines. 

 

Should Lionel's top tier engines have the detail and fidelity to the prototype that 3rd Rail engine have...sure, wouldn't that be great?  But they don't.  But as long has the Legacy engines are fun for me to play with I can accept that trade off.  That's my logic, but what do I know?

I agree with you.  I don't need absolute fidelity to the rivets, exactly fitting out of auxillary equipment and lights of the original, but I expect the locos to look good.  Paint and lettering aren't too important - I repaint about 30% of new locos anyway.  Whistle steam?  I use it so rarely that I'd really prefer it not be there - it's something else to go wrong -- and while you can turn it off in my experience that may not "fix" a problem: one of the few new locos I have had "go bad out of the box" had a bad smoke unit that, even turned off, caused problems (a U30C). 

 

Scale size, sound, and general appearance are most important to me.

Disclaimer: I've never bought a 3rd Rail engine, and since they don't build 19th century engines, I likely never will. But I do know that Scott Mann knows what his product will look like--and if he doesn't, he flies to the manufacturer and looks for himself.

 

Really, Lionel? You can't send one of your product managers back for a two-day stay in China to see what the heck they're building, or what the lettering will look like? You can't ask them to e-mail you the drawings/lettering layout? They didn't send you a proof model before full manufacturing started, so you could approve every aspect (and therefore actually know what you would be getting)?

 

This really does border on the absurd--a company that quite literally has no idea what it is they're selling.