I have to believe that at some point this may cycle down to extinction - "no accurate assessment of the to be delivered product = no advance orders for that product". No advance orders mean no go-ahead for production.
How can somebody say the whistle steam is more important then the correct lettering, amazingly stupid comment.
My solution to the whole mess is to pre-order the engine you want and if it comes wrong, refuse delivery. Maybe then Lionel will get the hint, do it right or no sale. I have done it before, I refuse to take something not right. When we are paying $1000.00+ I want it as close as possible to the prototype but only limited in our three rail world. Lettering is basic stuff and it should be right.
Originally Posted by david1:
How can somebody say the whistle steam is more important then the correct lettering, amazingly stupid comment.
Yeah, not sure I get this either. Seems some people would be just fine with a black-painted toiletpaper tube with wheels as long as the whistle "smoked."
quote:How can somebody say the whistle steam is more important then the correct lettering, amazingly stupid comment.
quote:Yeah, not sure I get this either
A customer can correct the tender lettering with a lot less difficulty than adding whistle steam. Some folks might not even care about the lettering.
Originally Posted by david1:
How can somebody say the whistle steam is more important then the correct lettering, amazingly stupid comment.
...
It's not a stupid comment at all... Nor more stupid than calling someone's comment stupid. 
The bottom line is different folks place a different value on different features, which makes it challenging to satisfy everyone. Obviously, most folks want graphics to be as close to the prototype as possible barring any glaring deficiencies. But I can easily understand why whistle-steam could be more important to someone vs. whether the lettering is pre-war or post-war... or whatever the various options may be.
David
I guess we can all agree if Lionels not "blowin smoke" one way, they're "blowin smoke" another.
Originally Posted by smd4:
Really, Lionel? You can't send one of your product managers back for a two-day stay in China to see what the heck they're building, or what the lettering will look like?
If it were that simple, don't you suppose Lionel and every other manufacturer would have figured that out? It's not just Lionel, of course. As the famous (infamous) MTH "Merrmac" tender misspelling showed a number of years ago, many things can happen, and the process of coordinating production details in the Far East is a whole lot more complicated than most would realize. Having heard stories from the guy who used to own Pecos River Brass (he was having brass O scale items made in Korea at the time, and had written a long piece about the process for one of the O scale magazines), and reading Mr. Mann's discussions about it at GGD/Sunset/3rd Rail, it's a very complex process, and a certain production protocol is required to get these things done. There are a number of "uncertainty gaps" that occur along the way as the production process proceeds. It's a whole lot more complex than just sending someone to China for a day or two at some point, unfortunately.
Yes Steve, my disapoinment with the latest Lionel catalog is primarily due to the fact that it did not offer a Vision Line black painted toilet paper tube with wheels that had the smoking feature.
David1, it is unfortunate you find my comment stupid because it is in fact rather simple. Lettering, if found unsatisfactory, is easier to remedy than an engine without a steam whistle. I am not encouraging Lionel to be inaccurate, but in the case of these two errors (SP Lines or SP painted on the tender v. the omission of a steam whistle) clearly the lettering would be the easiest for the consumer to fix.
I disagree with solution to pre-order the engine and then refuse delivery. You are in effect punishing dealers for Lionel's sins. I do believe that is the right thing to do.
Originally Posted by Principal RailRookie:
I am not encouraging Lionel to inaccurate, but in the case of these two errors (SP Lines or SP painted on the tender v. the omission of a steam whistle) clearly the lettering would be the easiest for the consumer to fix.
What error? Has anyone actually seen a production sample? Jon stated it will done like the engine in St Louis at the Museum of Transportation which means it will look like this:
Post '46 lettering. Lionel has already done many many GS class engines in both early and late lettering and they have all been correct for their time. The picture in the catalog is an illustration, not a photo of the actual finished product.
If the factory did screw up don't you think Lionel would correct the problem as they have done in the past. Consider the CC Santa Fe F3 shells.
Pete
Originally Posted by Norton:
If the factory did screw up don't you think Lionel would correct the problem as they have done in the past. Consider the CC Santa Fe F3 shells.
Pete
OH! Like they did with the $800.00 NS Genset!
Originally Posted by PRRronbh:
Originally Posted by Norton:
If the factory did screw up don't you think Lionel would correct the problem as they have done in the past. Consider the CC Santa Fe F3 shells.
Pete
OH! Like they did with the $800.00 NS Genset!
Or the incorrect main rods on their scale GS-4.
Originally Posted by John Korling:
Originally Posted by PRRronbh:
Originally Posted by Norton:
If the factory did screw up don't you think Lionel would correct the problem as they have done in the past. Consider the CC Santa Fe F3 shells.
Pete
OH! Like they did with the $800.00 NS Genset!
Or the incorrect main rods on their scale GS-4.
How many people brought this to their attention? They offered replacement drivers for the NYC J3a's when the ones shipped didn't match the catalog. Squeaky wheels.....
Pete
Originally Posted by Norton:
How many people brought this to their attention?
Why would anyone have to? It's, you know, THEIR JOB to get things right.
Originally Posted by breezinup:
If it were that simple, don't you suppose Lionel and every other manufacturer would have figured that out? ...
I've had products produced in Hong Kong. We communicatd almost every day. Production proofs were sent. And when everything was approved ON MY END, production started. In this day and age of E-mail and Skype, there really isn't any excuse for a company to basically say to it's customers--we have no idea what the bloody thing looks like!
The customer should not have to.
Originally Posted by C W Burfle:
A customer can correct the tender lettering with a lot less difficulty than adding whistle steam. Some folks might not even care about the lettering.
Norton:
Jon said
CTO, Lionel LLC
Look at your pictures above and look at the catalog....they do not match
Blue, you appear to be a glass half empty guy. Don't buy it.
Pete
It seems the rivet counters are raising their heads again. I mean realy, font type. It has always been said that these are toys. Yes expensive toys, but toys never the less. It would be best if they all worked out of the box without any trouble and they are all working hard to achieve that goal.
Now I can appreciate those that would like the fidelity to detail that seems to be the subject here but I am afread you are asking for too much even with the price being asked. I would suggest you investigate the O scale market or even 3rd rail to see what price your detail level will demand. Lionel, I believe has tried to answer your questions to the best of the current availability. They are still dealing with the Chinese market that is still young and arrogant. Unfortunately the answer you get from the Chinese is more akin to wate and see than yes sir. This espically true with questions about such things as fonts.
I am sorry and I do appreciate the concerns expressed but I think we are starting to make a mountain out of a mole hole.
Al
How can wanting the $1100 engine with the correct lettering make me a "Being a Half Full Guy"? Im not counting rivets, etc. I don't care if it has a steam wistle. Like I said the steam wistle is right next to the smoke stack - you could not see it if you wanted to.But it would be nice when my friends come over and I say look at my new engine and the first thing they say is "the Tender lettering is wrong". It is ovious to some people.
Don't worry like many, I have decided to not preorder anymore.The guys who are missing out are the dealers. Charlie just lost an order.
Jon made TWO (count 'em) statements. The model would be "as preserved" and "like the picture in the catalog". A half full guy would have focused on the first statement, not the second. Jon is a self proclaimed Santa Fe guy. I've been modeling Southern Pacific steam for over 50 years but know very little about Santa Fe. I don't expect the cataolg error would have jumped out to him. The odds are the person doing catalog illustrations is not a Southern Pacific expert and may not even be a train person. Maybe they are not even Lionel employees. There are multiple mistakes in the current catalog and in previous catalogs from all of the model train companies. Take it as a guide, not the bible.
Pete
It is just as easy to do it correct as it is incorrect. Spec it out correctly at the beginning and it will be correct at the end. At least most of the time. I am far from being a rivet counter but I do like things correct. Get the little things right then add the wow factors like the whistle steam etc.
Originally Posted by Norton:
Jon made TWO (count 'em) statements. The model would be "as preserved" and "like the picture in the catalog". A half full guy would have focused on the first statement, not the second. Jon is a self proclaimed Santa Fe guy. I've been modeling Southern Pacific steam for over 50 years but know very little about Santa Fe. I don't expect the cataolg error would have jumped out to him. The odds are the person doing catalog illustrations is not a Southern Pacific expert and may not even be a train person. Maybe they are not even Lionel employees. There are multiple mistakes in the current catalog and in previous catalogs from all of the model train companies. Take it as a guide, not the bible.
Pete
The best observation so far.
Norton
Pay attention this is real simple
"AS PRESERVED" is not the same as "LIKE THE PICTURE IN THE CATALOG"
I repeat
"AS PRESERVED" is not the same as "LIKE THE PICTURE IN THE CATALOG"
I repeated TWO times for you
This is "As Preserved". Its not the picture in the Lionel catalog. Its a picture of the engine as it appears today, the only remaining GS-6. Reading is fundamental.
Blue Streak, your question was about the letting on the tender. Of which I replied "as preserved", "like the picture in the catalog". The reply addressed YOUR ORIGINAL question, go back and re-read your initial post! If you wish to extend the response to a new interpretation of the original question you asked, then I am sorry I took time to reply to you. In the future, I guess I won't bother.
Originally Posted by Blue Streak:
Like I said the steam wistle is right next to the smoke stack - you could not see it if you wanted to
No it isn't! ONLY SP4449 CURRENTLY has the whistle right next to the stack, on the Engineer's side. The whistle was relocated forward, from in the skyline casing just ahead of the steam turret, during the rebuild in 1974 for the American Freedom Train. If you look at prototype photos & drawings of the GS class locomotives, the whistle is located in the skyline casing, just forward of the cab/steam turret housing.
Originally Posted by Norton:
This is "As Preserved". Its not the picture in the Lionel catalog. Its a picture of the engine as it appears today, the only remaining GS-6. Reading is fundamental.
Preserved, YES.
Painted correctly for SP in-service era,,,,NO!
HW how would it have looked "in service"? I know that the pilot was painted all silver for a time but assumed the picture was correct for ~'46-'50 or so.
Pete
If you like Daylights, just watch this and FOAM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91mkXjtYR7M&feature=relmfu
FORTIFIED with Pre LAUPT LA station scenes and Trolleys.
O gauge railroading in the 21st century:
It seems the rivet counters are raising their heads again. I mean realy, font type.
YEah esp for that type of $$. HOw would you feel?
These Roadrailers maybe cheaper but there is no excuse for it!
Bowser on Left with correct phont. Weaver models on right with incorrect phont!
Bowser on Left with correct phont. Weaver models on right with incorrect phont!
Originally Posted by prrhorseshoecurve:
It seems the rivet counters are raising their heads again. I mean realy, font type.
YEah esp for that type of $$. HOw would you feel? These Roadrailers maybe cheaper but there is no excuse for it!
Bowser on Left with correct phont. Weaver models on right with incorrect phont!
Bowser on Left with correct phont. Weaver models on right with incorrect phont!
The word is spelled FONT.
Originally Posted by smd4:
.......there really isn't any excuse for a company to basically say to it's customers--we have no idea what the bloody thing looks like!
Jon's statement was:
"The items depicted in the catalog are often prototype or mockup pictures and can be "subject to changes in price, design, color, size, and availability." Until we have viewed a sample of this product, we do not have more information at this time."
That's not the same at all as saying we have no idea what it looks like. Sounds like what Jon is saying is that until they move ahead with the details beyond what they used for the initial prototype/mockup, they aren't going to release more information at this time. That's a whole lot different from saying "we have no idea what the bloody thing looks like."
Lots of manufacturers do this. For example, if you have ever seen prototypes car manufacturers use, you know that the final production models can differ considerably. Until the development is further along, they aren't going to tell you exactly what the final product will look like. That's all Jon was saying. Go back and look at the history of toy train production - there are many examples of pre-production samples being different in certain ways from the product actually produced. Not hard to understand.
Originally Posted by Blue Streak:
the first thing they say is "the Tender lettering is wrong". It is ovious to some people.
And obvious to others.
to EscapeRocks.
Take a look at this photo, it should help.
Originally Posted by Norton:
HW how would it have looked "in service"? I know that the pilot was painted all silver for a time but assumed the picture was correct for ~'46-'50 or so.
Pete
The problem is, as I see it, is the catalog rendering is poor.
The spacing between "Southern" and "Pacific" is too wide, placing "Pacific" too far back on the tender and the font, while correct, appears a tad too small.
It's probably a result of trying to make a flat rendition of the lettering match the angle of the locomotive image.
Rusty
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Didn't this locomotive have smoke deflectors in service? Where they removed when it was put on display?
Originally Posted by J Daddy:
Didn't this locomotive have smoke deflectors in service? Where they removed when it was put on display?
All the SP GS class locomotives have "smoke lifters". That is what those two small ribs of sheet metal located either side of the stack, on top of the skyline casing. They did NOT have the huge "elephant ears" like UP and NYC used.
