Lionel Steam Turbine question on tender

Lionel did indeed include the lighted tenders with the turbines early on. It was lit off the pick up rollers I believe.

It was discontinued shortly after introduced because Lionel felt the small amount of "play-value" added by the light was not enough to justify production cost. This is why genuine lighted tenders are rare and sought after.

My 671's tender has a back up light. It's functional and lit via pickup rollers.

Those kits are still available.  I got one from The Train Tender.  Some of the turbine tenders already have holes for the lenses, others do not.

The early 2046W tenders had the holes drilled for lights

Scott

2671W tenders with drilled holes are common as well. It wasn't until later that they filled them in.

quote:

 I don't know how consistent Madison Hardware was with the light socket assembly provided, or whether it was the same one used at the factory.

According to the reproduction pocket guide published by the TCA some years back, the light sockets provided by Madison were the same ones used at the factory, but the lead wire was short.

The pocket guide also indicates that the factory installed lenses had the two outer "lights"  dyed red, while the Madison Hardware ones were undyed, all three "lights" were clear.

quote:

I am guessing that must be a bracket inside holding the bulb in place, then it would have been spot welded in place like the whistle relay bracket before painting and would make it easy to determine if it was put on in manufacture or at a later time. Can anyone who has one validate that?

Then it would also beg the question as to whether or not Lionel actually manufactured them at all or whether they are all just Madison add ons. Is there any "LIONEL" documentation out there to support the fact that it is so?

The aforementioned TCA guide shows the lamp socket as being held in place by a single screw.

Hugh raises an interesting question. Various Lionel guides state that early 2671W tenders (1948) came from the factory with the lights. However, I have not seen anything from Lionel to indicate that this was so.

The 2671W tender isn't listed in any of the offical Lionel bulb charts I've seen as requiring a bulb.

I did not see any mention of the backup lights in the 1948 catalog.

It's possible that Lionel made a run of the parts, and decided not to go forward with installing them.

To all,

Use only a 14 volt lamp, no greater voltage, or a hole will burn in the tender's rear deck!!!!  Believe me!!!!!

The problem is, that the bulb is constantly burning, while the track has power and a bulb having greater voltage is too hot!!!!

The lamp's electrical connection can be reworked, so that the lamp only illuminates in the reverse direction and is not illuminating in the forward direction.

But still, use only a 14 volt lamp bulb!!!

RJL 

As an additional precaution, I rubber-cement thin cardboard and aluminum foil to the inside of the tender's rear section, for insulation.

I have a 2671W tender which has the red “light” in the CENTER and the OUTSIDE “lights” show as clear.  I received this in a complete 1948 2143WS set bought from the original owner about 25 years ago and because this was his only train set I feel confident that it is original.

The light bracket looks just like the photo on page 107 of the Algozzini reproduction guide referenced by other posters.  The bracket is fastened onto the frame by a screw through a small hole in the left side (engineer side of the train) of the tender frame.  I checked four other 2671W tenders I own and they all have that same hole in the frame but of course none of those have the light.  There is no corresponding hole in the right side of the frame.  I have one 2046W-50 tender and its frame does not have the hole.

Re the “lights”, it is really one clear lens that is apparently glued across the entire inside top edge of the tender back end with the center part only painted or dyed red.  And it has three raised circular lenses which fill in the corresponding portholes in the tender body.  And the light is on all of the time the tender is powered, not just when operating in reverse. 

The bulb is a screw-base bulb marked “GE 18V”.  To keep the light from vibrating loose the socket is split into two halves and a screw on the top of a 2-piece socket holds the two halves together to hold the light tightly in place. 

Like CW, I was also not able to find any official Lionel documentation about this light in the 1948 catalog, in any instruction sheets or in the service manual.  However, the lamp chart on the last page in the 1948 Assembling and Operating Manual lists a #752-9 18-volt bulb for the 2671X tender.  So there is some official documentation afterall!

I can post photos if anyone is interested.

In response to RJL’s posting, how would you convert this to only light in the reverse direction? 

Bill

I'd appreciate a scan or picture of the bulb chart from the 1948 Assembling and Operating manual.

CW: As requested.

Bill

Thank you!!

What a great piece of work.

I would also love to see a closeup of the rear outside and insidebulb mounting of the tender if that is not asking too much. You have uncovered the details behind a long time question.

Thanks

WftTrains,

I'm sorry, I don't know, due to my lack of electrical knowledge.

Years ago, a Calif. electrical engineer, who knew the solution, advertised on the internet.

I did not have it done, due to the high cost and shipping of my four tenders, from N.Y. and back.

Unfortunately, I did not save the advertisement.

His explanation was similar to what is being done with the new units, now.

Maybe, an electronics firm may have a simple fix, on the market now.

RJL

Here's a brief look at #1449, clear globe, screw base- 14 volt lamp, socket and socket bracket, of Lionel tender #'s 2671W(P.RR.)-12 wheels, 2046W(Lionel Lines)-8 wheels & 2046-50(P.RR.)-8 wheels.

All of these 'Streamlined' tenders have a 'Water Scoop' on their underside and some of these tenders have opened, or closed lens ports.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5608278

RJL

To prevent heat damage what about using an LED in place of a regular light bulb? There are types that will work as direct replacement for screw and byanet bulbs. Some even give off a more natural incandesant type light.

Scott

Great site find, Thanks

Hugh,

You are welcome.

I usually have all of this info. at my finger tips, but the brain don't remember where the fingertips are located in, or on, lately!

I have  more in depth info. and photos., but .............?????

Take care,

Ralph-(RJL)

If, you find some B.&W. and/or color photos. of P.RR. tenders, with the rear end lamps showing, you will notice the two outer lamps to be dark/red and the center lamp to be white/clear and these photos. will back up what C W Burfle just posted.

Check page TWO lamp #L1449

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=750

RJL

Hugh,

You are welcome.

I usually have all of this info. at my finger tips, but the brain don't remember where the fingertips are located in, or on, lately!

Take care,

Ralph-(RJL)

All, be advised, the Lionel tender 2671W originally had Lamp #752-9, 18 volts, clear globe, screw base, as shown in the Lionel Lamp Chart posted by WftTrains, but it was quickly changed to the #L1449-300, 14 volts, clear globe, screw base bulb, due to the intense heat from the 18 volts bulb.

Then, the lamp assembly was discontinued, altogether, probably for safety and costs reasons.

Remember, these tenders were made of a plastic, not die-cast metal!!!!

And remember, my post, of my adventure of burning a hole in the tender's rear deck, by using an 18 volts bulb!

Please, be careful, these bulbs, even of 14 volts, are constantly burning and they're in a tiny, confined space, without adequate ventilation!!!!!

RJL

Hugh: Thanks but my photos of my 2671W tender didn’t come out very well.  I will retake them tomorrow.

Bill

Here's an E-Bay sale of a 2671W back-up light kit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180873268581+&item=180873268581&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466#ht_500wt_820

The light socket bracket is different, than the original, but it will do and the lens bar has the center lens in red and the two outer lenses clear.

The two outer lenses should be red and the center lens should be clear.

RJL

The turbine was part of the Penn famous American railroad

series. The tender had a backup light that only would light

in reverse. There was also a sound of steam circuit that

would only chug when the turbine was going forward.

The backup light prevented the chugging sound when

in reverse.

Would these work in a Williams 746 because the holes are drilled out?

pa,

When was the locomotive and tender, which you are posting about, made?

RJL 

Liam,

Aside, from the proper hot side of the whistle motor, for connecting the lamp assembly's hot wire, positioning of the lamp assembly bracket/positioning of the bulb and if, any other electronics are involved, all inside of the tender, the lamp bracket has to be grounded to the tender's 'METAL' frame.

The lamp bulb must be able to fit in the tiny open area, of the inside of the tender, without touching any part of the tender's inside, to prevent heat damage and only a 14 volts, or 12 volts bulb can be used, these lower voltage bulbs have a smaller globe, than do the 18, or greater voltage bulbs.

For safety and for no heat damage, 'NO' greater voltage bulb can be used, due to excessive heat and the larger size of the bulb's globe, to fit in such a small area!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALSO, the three lens protrusions, of the lens bar, must be able to fit into the tender's lens portals and the horizontal spacing, between the lenses, must be of a correct size, for the lens bar to fit properly.

I'm not sure, but I believe, led lamps are being used now, due to their greater candescence, emitting less heat and smaller size.

RJL 

The lamp bracket pictured in the Ebay listing is different than the ones I purchased directly from Madison Hardware in NYC. The Madison Hardware ones match the picture in the TCA reproductions pocket guide. The lenses are clear on my samples.

As far as bulbs go:

It would be desireable to use as cool of a bulb as possible.

Here are the ratings on some relatively common screw base bulbs:

1447 - .15 amps at 18 volts

1449 - .20 amps at 14 volts

Please correct me if I am mistaken. I believe that the 1447 bulb will burn cooler than the 1449 at any given voltage.

A less common bulb:

52 - .10 amps at 14.4 volts

The 52 may be even cooler than the 1447.

I use only old stock American Made miniature lamps. I am not confident that imports are made to the original specifications. We know that the bases are usually a bit different.

C W Burfle,

I may be wrong with my previous posts of the bulb voltages and heat emittance, but the damage to my tender was due to an 18 volt bulb, probably because it's globe is larger and though I checked for space clearance, I still had heat damage.  That's why I thought the 18 volt bulb emitted greater heat.

I thank you for the correction and I apologize to you and all for my inaccurate posts, regarding greater voltage and greater heat emittance.

Where, are you able to find U.S. of A. lamps, now-a-days?  That's great!

RJL

bigo426,

I know, the photo. does not show the lamp socket clearly and that it is of a newer type of lamp assembly, but I wanted to show the members what the lamp assembly looks like and that was the only photo. I found, in such a short amount of time.

I can not locate my other files, with a clearer photos. of original lamp bracket assemblies and lens bars.

RJL 

Your 18 volt bulb certainly was too hot.

There are literally hundreds of different miniature lamps.

IMHO, unless they are very familar with the characteristics of an alternate bulb, folks should be careful to only use the bulb recommended by the manufacturer.

There are several basic shapes for the glass on a miniature bulb.

G is the designation for round (globe) glass.

The G is followed by a number, which indicates the diameter of the bulb in eights of an inch.

The 52, 1447, and 1449 bulbs are all G-3 1/2, or 7/16 diameter.

The 1447 and 1449 bulbs were both used by Lionel. As far as I know, Lionel did not make use of the #52 bulb.

Two of the larger diameter bulbs Lionel used were the 430 and 432. These bulbs have a G- 4 1/2 glass, or 9/16 diameter.

But the size of the glass does not drive the design voltage of the bulb.

A 430 is rated: .25 amps at 14 volts.

A 432 is rated: .25 amps at 18 volts.

Other design elements of bulbs include the current draw (amperage), filament design, and filament support.

Some of this is described in the Lionel service manual (including Greenberg & Aurotec reprints). The rest of the information came from old GE miniature lamp catalogs. For those interested, I expect the information is also available on the web.

The Turbine with the backup lights was #8404 and part

of the Famous American railroads #5 of 1984-1985. Lionel

used a plastic light bar with a lamp but this could all

be replaced with 3 small red LEDs in the holes in the tender.

Attached is a photograph of an unused tender backup light kit that I purchased from Madison Hardware in NYC. The kit includes the socket assembly with a bulb, the light bar (no coloring), and a piece of insulation. The bulb appears to be 1455. No screws were included.

Madison Hardware had a seemingly infinite supply of Westinghouse 1455 bulbs. Not only did they sell them as clear, they painted them red or green for 022 switch controller bulbs (and other assorted uses). They also put a dimple in the top so they could be used on 394 beacons (didn't work very well).

The bulbs were rumored to have come from Lionel (prewar stock), but it is difficult to tell. The bulbs do not have the GE number printed on the base, as was normally done. And Lionel did not start using standard GE numbering scheme until sometime in the early 1950's.

C W Burfle,

Thank you for this extra info.

The 18 volt bulb I used was recently bought and I did not know of and the bulb chart, that I have, does not mention of the heat emittance difference

I was running the tender on track with 18 volts, which was for my new invention of Lionel's TMCC and then, I notice smoke coming from the tender's rear.

Fortunately, no fire occurred and no further damage was caused.

I went back to the 14 volt bulb.

If, I knew that certain 18 volt bulbs emitted less heat, I would have used them, because some of the lamp charts do not give this important info., as you just have.

Thank you again,

Ralph-RJL 

Thank you pa for your answer and thank you C W Burfle for the photo. of the B.U. lamp kit.

Why, was the socket split?
RJL 

WEEEE!

What a ride this post has taken.

Thanks all.

Here is a pic of the ebay listing