Lionel Vision GS Models - Prototype Accuracy

TexasSP posted:

If there ever was an interest for me in a vision models, the GS's are it.  However I would like to know of the daylight series GS's being offered, which is the most prototypically accurate?  What are the issues that can be seen with each model as presented in the catalog?

Good question/questions.  Driver diameter and main rod size/appearance come to mind.

Hopefully the folks at Lionel have a copy of the revised book on SP Daylight locomotives, by Robert J. Church.

Thanks for those pointers, I am going to compare some photos.

The Chessie System, Lark and Golden State paint jobs are pure fantasy.  The SP herald tender never left the shop area.

Rusty

Yeah, not even considering those.  I am not big on fantasy steam loco paint jobs.

I am, where the Daylight or Warbonnet schemes are concerned, but I am not considering those models either. That narrows down the field of choice. The Robert Church book is a fine resource but I don't expect Lionel to reproduce 3rd Rail detail and accuracy. I'd be happy if the Daylight colors matched the last two fantasy locos (AC-12 and AC-9).

Hancock52 posted:

TexasSP posted:

Yeah, not even considering those.  I am not big on fantasy steam loco paint jobs.

I am, where the Daylight or Warbonnet schemes are concerned, but I am not considering those models either. That narrows down the field of choice. The Robert Church book is a fine resource but I don't expect Lionel to reproduce 3rd Rail detail and accuracy. I'd be happy if the Daylight colors matched the last two fantasy locos (AC-12 and AC-9).

It would also be nice if the Lionel models of the semi-streamlined locomotives have the correct Daylight "ball & wing" logo on EACH side of the skirts aligned properly.

So easy to fix.  I would worry more about side rods and thick cast ladders.  But then, I have enough Daylights.

Well now, since all the images in the catalog are computer renditions, except of the pilot version of the GS-1, thus, using them to compare is really not any better than if they had showed a HO or N scale model of the same.

However, some of the answers to the question Jack pointed out can be answered, why? Because the drive systems for both types have already been produced. So all you need to do is measure the Lionel Mountain driver and if that number is accurate or close enough for you then that question can be put to bed. Same for the past runs of the GS's with the larger drivers. I never measured the wheels on either of these, but for the most part, you can count on anyone with tinplate flanges in their line up will come in a bit under sized. 

The above would be a design decision. Can't really be changed or screwed up on the assembly line.

The decoration (deco) like the ball and wing, that is and can be a production issue and honestly, you will not really know if this type of error is present until the items start to land on the hobby shop shelves. 

To pre-order or not, that is your decision and business. 

Charlie

We are striving for prototypical accuracy with these models. @Hot Water I know you have LOTS of experience with these engines. If you'd like to email me any concerns, we can go through them.

Charlie posted:

Well now, since all the images in the catalog are computer renditions, except of the pilot version of the GS-1, thus, using them to compare is really not any better than if they had showed a HO or N scale model of the same.

The images are computer renditions of the CAD models that the tooling and models are built off of. So they very closely resemble the mechanical design of the final product.

Dave Olson posted:

We are striving for prototypical accuracy with these models. @Hot Water I know you have LOTS of experience with these engines. If you'd like to email me any concerns, we can go through them.

 

Can't say he didn't ask!    If anyone knows it's Jack!

Dave Olson posted:

We are striving for prototypical accuracy with these models. @Hot Water I know you have LOTS of experience with these engines. If you'd like to email me any concerns, we can go through them.

 

Charlie posted:

Well now, since all the images in the catalog are computer renditions, except of the pilot version of the GS-1, thus, using them to compare is really not any better than if they had showed a HO or N scale model of the same.

The images are computer renditions of the CAD models that the tooling and models are built off of. So they very closely resemble the mechanical design of the final product.

Dave,

I just sent you an eMail.

Dave Olson posted:

We are striving for prototypical accuracy with these models. 

Of course, here's where somebody could say:

"Yeah, but they are still designed for 3-rail track..." 

Mark in Oregon

Strummer posted:

Dave Olson posted:

We are striving for prototypical accuracy with these models. 

Of course, here's where somebody could say:

"Yeah, but they are still designed for 3-rail track..." 

Mark in Oregon

 real trains don't have 3 rails?? Next you'll tell me they don't have electrocouplers.. 

If HW's voice is on there then deal sealed. What more can you ask for?

I like the Lark fantasy scheme and the Lark cars.  NH Joe

TexasSP posted:

If HW's voice is on there then deal sealed. What more can you ask for?

As accurate locomotive as can be built with the cost and tooling limitations. 

I think most folks would be happy Dave and Jack are talking.  While I suspect there will be some limits to what can be done at least there is conversation from someone who has intimate knowledge of these locomotives.  If they happen to have Hotwater for the crew talk thats a bonus.

Dave Olson posted:

Strummer posted:

Dave Olson posted:

We are striving for prototypical accuracy with these models. 

Of course, here's where somebody could say:

"Yeah, but they are still designed for 3-rail track..." 

Mark in Oregon

 real trains don't have 3 rails?? Next you'll tell me they don't have electrocouplers.. 

Some real trains do have 3 rail track 🤗

M J Breen posted

Some real trains do have 3 rail track 🤗

Looks like therr are two tracks for wheels, and the center rail AND the outside rail for power.  The London Tubes use that system.  In fact I see an Underground poster on the platform.

I don't think it is HW's first rodeo behind a mike for crewtalk recording.

As delivered, was the whistle on the GS5 at the front near the stack or back farther on the boiler near the cab?

thanks!

T4TT posted:

As delivered, was the whistle on the GS5 at the front near the stack or back farther on the boiler near the cab?

 

thanks!

GS5, as delivered, should have the whistle further back towards the cab.

Thanks Lou!  Did the SP move the whistles forward on GS4s and 5s during their service life or is that something that was done much later for present day excursion duty?  I really like the idea of buying a VL GS5 but if the whistle is in the wrong location that is a deal breaker for me.

thanks again!

Great info.  If anyone knows, what has Jack's (HW) voice been used on in models thus far?

A frustration I have with some of MTH's models is that it's obvious the same people are doing the vocals on many different locos.  Some of them sound believable, some do not, and some sound almost comical.  No offense meant to providing those.

I don't own any modern Lionel at this point, so not sure how this scenario plays out with there vocal recordings other than what I have seen on some YouTube videos.

Dave, thanks for giving details on the fact new tooling is being created for these (would hope so being vision line) and that the drawings represent actual CAD images you're using for production.

T4TT posted:

Thanks Lou!  Did the SP move the whistles forward on GS4s and 5s during their service life or is that something that was done much later for present day excursion duty?  I really like the idea of buying a VL GS5 but if the whistle is in the wrong location that is a deal breaker for me.

 

thanks again!

I believe that 4449's whistle was moved forward when it was restored in 1975 for the AFT, but others with more knowledge will have to confirm.

TexasSP posted:

Great info.  If anyone knows, what has Jack's (HW) voice been used on in models thus far?

A frustration I have with some of MTH's models is that it's obvious the same people are doing the vocals on many different locos.  Some of them sound believable, some do not, and some sound almost comical.  No offense meant to providing those.

I don't use any of the crew talk/passenger announcements on my stuff. I either turn it off or don't hit the button to activate it. So I have no idea what most of the stuff sounds like 

I believe HW did crew talk for MTH's EMD's E-8 diesels. This what I was told (not by him himself), but it does sound like him. If it's not, I'm sure he will post it here.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I believe HW did crew talk for MTH's EMD's E-8 diesels. This what I was told (not by him himself), but it does sound like him. If it's not, I'm sure he will post it here.

I sure don't remember doing any "EMD E8 diesels", but I know for sure that my voice was used on the very first models of SP 4449, by MTH, way back when then first did the GS-4. In fact I provide one or two rolls of 35MM color slides of just about ever square foot of 4449, in order for them to produce the model (photo 1).

As additional information, concerning the whistle location, all, and I mean ALL, of the SP semi-streamlined  GS Class 4-8-4s had the whistle mounted just forward of the cab & turret, down inside the sky-line casing (the opening can be seen when viewed down on the real locomotives). During the restoration of 4449, in 1975/1975 for use on the American Freedom Train, the steam supply (superheated steam) was repiped and the whistle relocated forward to the right side (Engineer's side) of the exhaust stack. Another steam supply pipe was t-ed off the main supply, for a second, or "guest" whistle on the left side (Fireman's side) of the exhaust stack. Each whistle was lever operated for each crewman. The entire tour of the American Freedom Train, 4449 carried two whistles; 1) the Engineer's whistle being the original Hancock deep whistle from SP&S 4-8-4 #700 (which was subsequently returned to the 700 when it was restored to steam), 2) the Fireman's whistle was a large Santa Fe chime whistle, which was returned to the owner while at San Louis Obispo during the 1977 return trip of 4449 back to Portland, OR.

It should also be pointed out that ALL the whistles on the SP GS class 4-8-4s were NOT "lever operated" by the Engineer! The steam supply valve at the base of the whistle was air pressure operated by a small brass lever, mounted just to the left front of the Engineer's position. A second small brass lever, was mounted right next to the whistle lever, which supplied air pressure to the big forward-facing air horn (4449 still has the original small brass lever for blowing the air horn).

As additional information, the Southern Pacific Engineers RARELY ever used the steam whistle, as the big air horn was far louder and travelled farther forward, especially in foggy conditions in California.

Hot Water posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

I believe HW did crew talk for MTH's EMD's E-8 diesels. This what I was told (not by him himself), but it does sound like him. If it's not, I'm sure he will post it here.

I sure don't remember doing any "EMD E8 diesels", but I know for sure that my voice was used on the very first models of SP 4449, by MTH, way back when then first did the GS-4. In fact I provide one or two rolls of 35MM color slides of just about ever square foot of 4449, in order for them to produce the model (photo 1).

Assuming you mean the original PS1 versions?  I have one of these converted to PS3.  How accurate would you rate MTH's execution?  I do love it, and it runs great.  I painted the ladders black, but still need to work on the wheels.

As additional information, concerning the whistle location, all, and I mean ALL, of the SP semi-streamlined  GS Class 4-8-4s had the whistle mounted just forward of the cab & turret, down inside the sky-line casing (the opening can be seen when viewed down on the real locomotives). During the restoration of 4449, in 1975/1975 for use on the American Freedom Train, the steam supply (superheated steam) was repiped and the whistle relocated forward to the right side (Engineer's side) of the exhaust stack. Another steam supply pipe was t-ed off the main supply, for a second, or "guest" whistle on the left side (Fireman's side) of the exhaust stack. Each whistle was lever operated for each crewman. The entire tour of the American Freedom Train, 4449 harried two whistles; 1) the Engineer's whistle being the original Hancock deep whistle from SP&S 4-8-4 #700 (which was subsequently returned to the 700 when it was restored to steam), 2) the Fireman's whistle was a large Santa Fe chime whistle, which was returned to the owner while at San Louis Obispo during the 1977 return trip of 4449 back to Portland, OR.

It should also be pointed out that ALL the whistles on the SP GS class 4-8-4s were NOT "lever operated" by the Engineer! The steam supply valve at the base of the whistle was air pressure operated by a small brass lever, mounted just to the left front of the Engineer's position. A second small brass lever, was mounted right next to the whistle lever, which supplied air pressure to the big forward-facing air horn (4449 still has the original small brass lever for blowing the air horn).

I am understanding it correctly then that the whistles would not be quillable?

As additional information, the Southern Pacific Engineers RARELY ever used the steam whistle, as the big air horn was far louder and travelled farther forward, especially in foggy conditions in California.

Makes sense.

Really?  The location and type of whistle is a deal breaker on a model with pizza cutter wheels and giant couplers?  That is your right, of course, but by that standard you would be happier in Proto-48.  Opinion.

bob2 posted:

Really?  The location and type of whistle is a deal breaker on a model with pizza cutter wheels and giant couplers?  That is your right, of course, but by that standard you would be happier in Proto-48.  Opinion.

These types of posts are silly and nonconstructive.  Even P48 has compromises.  People decide what their's are and go with it.  Incessant reminders from people about the couplers and flanges are pointless and having nothing to do with anything, they're a given, just like the 3rd rail in 3 rail O.

OK, I got the right company, wrong locomotive. George, from the Chicago model RR club and worked at Siemens who says he knows you was my source of info.