Lionel Vision line Big Boy Coal Collapse Feature

Jon Z

 

Just curious, but will the coal depleting feature have an on/off switch? Either a physical switch or via the Legacy remote?

 

I think they are trying to implement features never done before so I say it is a cool feature.  Not sure anyone will notice the depletion since it takes so long to deplete and engine has to be under load.  The refill is where you will notice it most.  So A+ for trying to come up with something different than just more smoke everywhere.

I'm curious though on the longevity of the material used for the load.  Flexible type materials always degrade over time, get hard, crack, etc.  That would be a good part to have a good supply of for future repairs.  Not sure if its a vacuum or mechanical on how it pulls the load down, but could be one of those Achilles heels depending how its designed.

Still, I applaud them for new concepts

To me, the features don't justify the extra price difference.  And, to pay that much money for a 'toy train' is nuts to me. 

 

I know there are the 'die-hard' guys who'll buy them-good for them.  Each thier own, but I can't rationalize that much money for a hobby at this point in my life....probably never will either.

 

Not a fan of the coal load deal or the crew talk.  But, it is a beautiful engine and I've watched the youtube clip several times.  Love the low speed crawl and smoke.

 

I would like to see Lionel build a Vision Line 'early' Challenger.  I think it would be awesome to see VL engines never made before (all new castings) combined with new efforts to propel the hobby forward with a positive note. 

Why would engine sounds change with the coal load?

 

A steam locomotive working with a full coal bunker sounds exactly the same as one with a nearly empty coal bunker. 

 

Rusty

It appears that Mr. Coniglio got confused by what Mr. Jon Z. described about the rate of coal depletion based on how "hard the model is worked", i.e. if the model is kept in the labored chuff mode longer, then the coal depletion occurs faster/quicker. However, if the model is operated at "normal" loading, the coal depletion will take noticeably longer. The bottom line is, the OPERATOR must change the chuff sounds to "labored".

Seems the coal feature is limited "play" value and somewhat akin the the diesel breakdown booster a few years back.  After doing two or three breakdowns, probably the operator disabled this feature effect and sounds, except for show and tells. Not sure if booster still current production or was just a one year and gone.

I think the Big Boy is very cool, and I love all the smoke effects.  The depleting coal load is nice, but as others have said, the smoke effects are more striking. 

 

The suggestion about creating more varied operating cars really hits home with me.  I'd love to see that more than a $2500 locomotive.  Just think how many Legacy operating cars that would buy.

 

Good suggestion, I do not believe this crossed our minds.  A switch on the tender would be a good idea, so Conventional and Command operators could disable the feature.  I will check and see what is possible.

 

Yes, there are some of us that will be running these in conventional, so having it stop because it ran out of fuel would be a hassle because we can't refill it since we don't have Legacy.

That is not the way it works.  In conventional mode, the refill is automatic when power is off for more than 5 seconds.  This allows for "E" unit behavior (direction changes), and the continued depletion without loss of the coal load level.  

 

FYI: The Fuel and Water metrics also work in this manner, and have since inception of the feature.   Additionally, the loco does not stop when fuel or water runs low; the locos actually never reach "empty".

 

Guys - not here to quiz your knowledge of articulated engineering, boiler dimensions or wheel configuration. My point was specific to the Vision special features offered on the Vision AT&SF in comparison to the coming big boy. You know, smoking whistle, blow down effects, etc. Point being, we were discussing the price of the big boy in comparison to other Vision engines, and whether the price for the given loco and features makes sense.

 

Guess I misunderstood some of the things I heard and read about the feature.  Good to know.

 

While looking at features, could you all make the blowdown happen at random times while running in conventional?

I think it's a good comparison: the 2-10-10-2 and the forthcoming Bog Boy have the same number of wheels and represent respectively the best Lionel can do then and now, each with features new for its time.  Whether one was larger than the other in real life is sort of irrelevent, I think: seems to me its the number of parts and features that determine the cost and price, not the amount of metal that has to be cast.  onsidering the price of the 2-10-10-2 when it came out ($2,249) in 2009, $2,200 or even $2,500 for the Big Boy now is not out of line or even unreasonable.

New feature idea: functioning power reverse linked to the valve gear.  It's been done on some Key and Kohs O scale 2 rail locomotives for quite a few years.

 

Ed Rappe

It is OK, but I can live without it, I will most likely not use the feature. That being said I rather have features like my smart phone has, I say hello Seri and she says hello Tall, Dark, and handsome. Just a thought.

First thanks to Jon for commenting on this forum.  If I were him, I would struggle to respond to the incessant whining and complaining that prevails here, so my hat is off to him.

 

There have been many comments about the cost of this engine, but to my knowledge an official MSRP has not yet been announced.  Is that correct?

 

While it may seem logical to base an expectation for current MSRP on previous versions of the same model, it is simply unwise to do so when it comes to Lionel.  There is no continuity between previous and current prices or between number of features and price point.  Save yourself the aggravation and don't bother trying to apply logic to what these toys cost.  

 

How about some low tech features?  I would like removable Engineer and Brakemen, and I would like several included of each crewman in various poses.  This would be really ideal with the depleting coal load feature.  It would be cool to have a brakaman stand on top the tender as the coal pile is refilled.  How about make the swing out coupler an O gauge coupler to make double heading easier to do.  I would still like to have a scale coupler but I would rather have to remove the o gauge rather than how it is currently configured.

As mentioned I would like to see connections (hoses/coal "chute") between the cab and tender and a close coupling feature, even if it is multiple draw bars of various lengths...again all low tech.

 

In regard to high tech, I really want to see the wheels slipping.  Jon if you can figure out how to do that, it would be beyond cool!  I wish the big boy had dynamo steam.  Every video I have seen of the big boy there are always 2 or 3 streams of steam shooting out the top of the boiler just in front of the cab.  How about a smoke unit in the tender?  I have seen several videos in which steam is coming out of the lower forward portion of the tender...maybe from whatever is powering the auger...I don't know.  I would like to see/hear the interaction between multiple toys, i.e. engine-hot box reefer-caboose.  The smoke starts pouring of the journal box the conductor in the caboose makes an announcement/signals the engineer and then the engineer responds taking the necessary action (slowing or stopping the train).  I want more interaction/automation for sure and the train link feature makes that possible.

 

I do know that I appreciate that Jon and Lionel are pushing the envelope and trying to innovate.  Those that may not care for the features or not want to pay the higher costs associated with these innovations are lucky that there are other manufacturers not doing so, cranking out the same engines they have previously released.  They can always buy those engines.

How about with a long Bell Button press we activate Blowdown feature, and turn off the bell.  Such as 2-3 seconds of Bell button press?  Would that be better than random?

Is there a video of this feature posted somewhere, I would like to see it in action.

 

Jack

 

Oh ok I understand, thank you.

Plenty of videos on the new Big Boy posted, here's one: Lionel Vision Line Big Boy Video

Jon,

If the tubing channeling the vapor were metal, would the smoke unit transfer enough heat to the tube to "dissolve" a clog?

 

I guess a clean out opening would be impractical, and pushing the clog down into the smoke unit from the opening in the boiler would not work either....right?

Possible Kevin, I think we are still learning how to best compromise between the play value and prototypical accuracy.  Last we looked the feature options for the smoke system on the Vision Big Boy, it seemed challenging to exhaust smoke vertically on the Vision Big Boy near the rear of the loco.  We had thought to do this instead of the blow down.

 

As we continued to develop, we learned how hot 4 smoke units + electronics can make a cast boiler get!  The smoke systems in the Vision Big Boy will additionally have thermistors to limit max temperature, and each smoke unit location has to be positioned in such a way as to allow the heat to be drawn out via the boiler chassis.  

 

As a reference, we did experience condensation problems on the Vision Genset, which had 3 smoke units, one per stack.  The exhaust channel was metal, short, and problematic with some condensation, especially on the stack flap.  As I recall, one had to keep the stack clean, and we even provided spare stacks.  Seems once condensation happens, the fluid won't re-vaporize unless it touches the element and the air flow prevents this back-flow.

 

A lot of development related testing goes into these advanced features, which drives the price of the loco up, so we need to be mindful of the development costs and make appropriate compromises.  Hopefully the right compromises are made, in that the model is reasonably priced and delivers decent features.

 

Jon,
Thanks for all the work you have done to push the envelope.   At this point in the big boys development, is it safe to say that it will not have any more features than those that Mike described in his video?
Thanks

I appreciate your answering all of the questions Jon, and understand your reasoning behind development of features.

 

I ask this respectfully:

 

Why then have individual smoke units for the bigboys dual stacks when the prototype does not have independent  chuffing stacks but rather a dual  simultaneous outlet?

 

It would seem the 4th smoke unit could have been either eliminated for reliability, or used for the dynamo effect like the challenger.

 

I would think relative accuracy of features is as important as the features themselves.

 

Hot Water hit it... working valve gear changing from forward to reverse (with sound as appropriate) is the killer feature I am waiting for. If it would "hook up" that would be even better. Nothing - I mean nothing - is more visually bothering to me than our models which have valve gear that is always stuck in one position.

Yeah and it's centered.  Not in forward or reverse.

I was in Spring Texas waiting for the engine UP should be getting ready, 3985, to go by.  As she was going by, she came to a stop.  Once she and her train was ready to go, the engineer was adjusting the control linkage for the reverser.  That sight and sound should be reproduced when one changes direction of the engine! 

It's a neat feature but not one I would ever want to pay extra for - like whistle steam, its something I would accept on a loco and grudgingly pay the added cost because I wanted the loco, but never use.  Personally I would prefer animated engineer and firemen figures more than any other feature I can think of . . . 

And I am passing on the V Big boy only because I have such a good JLC version.  I look forward to the depleting coal feature is future locos - its something I always thought would be a lot of fun and I hope some day to have something I run  alot (a Legacy or Vision northern?) with it.

>>Why then have individual smoke units for the bigboys dual stacks

>>when the prototype does not have independent  chuffing stacks

>>but rather a dual simultaneous outlet?

 

RickO,  

Good question, and I really don't know the answer other than that is the spec for the loco.   I also received an email from "Hotwater" along the same lines.  

 

Although, the reason for not supporting a Dynamo, or Blowdown with top exhaust, is the same.  There is no room at the rear of the loco to do such reliably.

 

I would always take being able to control the blowdown in conventional over random any day.  And another thought from being a MTH PS1 runner, you can trigger their couplers when the voltage is high with the horn button, but when voltage is low you only get the horn.  I do like something like that better than the timed button pushes.  But being able to trigger the effect however it is done in conventional would be a great thing.

I gotta say that at first I didn't think much of a depleting coal load, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. 

 

It would be fun to run the engine for 15 - 30 minutes, then run it over to the coaling tower to get a new load of coal.

 

I will add that I don't plan on this model, the only steam engine on my radar would be a truly detailed scale model of a B&O Mikado.

 

Jim

I would like more non-prototypical locos with non functioning features with Roadnames that never existed. With the exception of Lionel Lines of course.

Just kidding. But I agree with GRJohn.
More operating  command accessories that actually work correctly and serve a cyclical function. Ie... Log dump to sawmill with lumber loading. All inclusive. Plug and play right out of the box.

Anyone ever want an operating automobile loader and a dealership to ship and unload to?
Now today, mostly intermodal is the way.
But back in the steam days, most everything was hand loaded and offloaded.

Even the coal dump loader required parallel tracks.
Most branches only had one dead end track. Drop off the raw materials and haul them out. Some of us are very ingenious modelers with strong mechanical aptitude.
But some would love to be able to just open the package and have fun. Especially around the holidays.

Really, we o gauge toy train types have developed a definite taste for realism while still retaining the toy train mentality. This makes the work of Lionel all that much more difficult.

 

Bob C.

Jon,

 

Thank you and your team for striving to improve the Lionel products. One thing this thread has proven (again) is that there never is a way to please everyone.

 

An idea:

I have not looked into this yet, so I don't know how feasible it would be, but . . .

 

Wouldn't it be nice if you could insert a micro hygrometer in the smoke fluid wick, supported by the required electronics, such that when a predetermined wick 'dryness' were detected, the cab (or tower) would announce, "Smoke fluid low, please replenish at the next stop."?

 

Thx!

 

Alex

Well, I just watched the video on the shrinking coal load, and , well, I guess some would say it's a nice little extra, and well, one more thing to go wrong. Some might think it looks cool while it "sinks", but what are we supposed to think when the train is running and it "raises"? Where did the new coal load come from? Cyber loading?

It's just a useless gimmick. I'm sure some will be fascinated over the technology involved, me, I'll pass.

David,

I plan on replenishing my coal and raising the coal pile under my coaling tower.  I believe that would be the intended purpose for this feature.  But if a person wanted to pretend the coal load came from "cyber loading" as you called it, why couldn't they imagine that?  To be clear, pretending the coal was replenished in that method would be a bridge too far you?  So is it better to pretend the coal load in our toy engines are never depleted?  Maybe it is a gimmick that there is a coal pile cast into in any of our tenders.   

I prefer coal loads that are some what depleted...from the manufacturers they are always full to the brim.

Every one of my steam locomotive models had had the coal pile "modified". Depending on prototype photos, I have tender coal loads that have just been filled at the coal dock, some that are "hollowed out" in the forward portion of the tender, and one or two that have the forward portion of the tender's coal "hollowed out" so that the cross-bracing sheets are exposed. 

 

In other words, I am "pretending" that at any given time, THAT locomotive tender's coal pile reflects SOMETHING REALISTIC! I have never seen ANY photos of real coal burning steam locomotives with solid "molded-in" tender coal piles.