Lionel Visionline GG1 - price?

I have not seen anything from Lionel officially. However. I believe the concensus was around 1200 to 1300 dollars. 

thank you. I had guessed 1200 myself

The price is shocking.....!

I assumed it would be listed in the catalog for more.  Hopefully you guys are right.  

I think the catalog full price may be 1600 or so.

bob c

I've been biting my lip awhile now. $1200 - $1600? If so, that would be outrageous (IMO) for a single unit locomotive that has been produced before. Hopefully Lionel will price these reasonably so more hobbyists can rationalize a purchase..

well 'of course these are guesses. maybe we will be surprised by a lower cost when all is said and done.

bob c.

MSRP $1,799

Street Price $1,440

Sam, The pantographs arc . . . . . That's got to be worth $450 or so 

Straight from the only unreliable source: Scrapiron Scher

I myself will go a maximum of 1500 for this engine.

bob c

If the street price has four figures, I won't own one.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If the street price has four figures, I won't own one.

Haha there's no way it's gonna be under 1k. Not being a jerk but we all know there gonna put a min of 1200 price tag on this.

I will bet the price will be around $1800 street.

MDuppy posted:

I will bet the price will be around $1800 street.

That's absurd.. I wouldn't pay 900 yet 1800. And I paided 1900 for a big boy. I see a lot of those 2k Berkshires still for sale . I have visions of centipedes all over again.. 

It better hit the street for less then 1000.00 or this old boy will not bite at all. Even the worst of the smartest SPF will not be moved by a higher price than 1G.

So what is a "reasonable" price that some of you had said it should be?

Charlie

In a few weeks, opinions will give way to fact.

Sadly, I think many of you will be sorely disappointed...

I bought my JLC GG-1 NIB at York for $450, no way I'm paying two-three times that for the VL model.  There just isn't enough added value to get me.

I would concur with GRJ above. The JLC model had a retail of $899 (?) and you can buy them now for $500 and less all over the place. Why would some sparking lights and an extra speaker be worth even twice that? The JLC models are still beauties...

the main attraction for me is the chance to own "old rivets"

bob c

I confess that the riveted model would be the only one I'd be interested in, but I suspect they're going to be too expensive anyway...

I agree that the only one I'd be interested in is the riveted version.  At a buck or two per rivet the price could get quite high!

I believe the msrp will be $1600. At that price look for the blow out next year from dealers. 

Sparking pantos---give me a break

Sadly, I'm afraid Lionel is gonna make this one hurt.  Just look at the precedent that's been set with products they've catalog'd recently... including the  Silver-plated 115th Anniversary Berk (which many dealers can't move at $2K); non-VisionLine diesel locomotives carrying $650 MSRP's; and non-articulated, non-VisionLine Legacy steamers now coming in with $1500 MSRP's (or higher)... just to name a few. 

I've already stated that I have my eye on the bicentennial Vision Line GG-1, but I'm also trying not to go goo-goo, ga-ga over it either.   Plans are for it be the motive power for an Atlas-O Amtrak Zephyr train I've been patiently assembling over the past few years.  But I also just recently acquired a Lionel JLC black Penn Central GG-1 (at a very fair price below MSRP), which can EASILY serve that purpose if Lionel get's too greedy with the Vision Line GG-1 pricing... which unfortunately I have every reason to believe they will.  Although I hope Lionel proves me wrong on this.  Perhaps there's a small chance the GG-1 will be 2016's version of the Lionel Milwaukee Road S-3 steam locomotive offered a few years ago at a very attractive price-point.  We could all use a refreshing break from the nose-bleed price-points of recent catalogs.    We should know within a month or so.

David

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I bought my JLC GG-1 NIB at York for $450, no way I'm paying two-three times that for the VL model.  ...

Amazingly, that's about the going rate for new JLC GG-1's right now... anywhere from $450 to $550.  The only exception is the black Penn Central JLC GG-1, which may set you back a shade under the $899 MSRP. 

Given all of that, there's really no compelling reason we SHOULD see a huge price jump (over the prior JLC's MSRP) with the upcoming Vision Line models.  But we probably will nonetheless.  To a large degree, the Vision Line brand tends to carry a $500-$750 premium just for the "Vision Line" moniker.  That's been the track record. 

So here's my take... the older JLC GG-1's had the $899 MSRP that we've mentioned already.  But that was also circa 2008... so factor in a couple hundred dollar increase easy for the passage of EIGHT years time, which puts us at $1100 or so.  Now, let's think "Vision Line" branding for a moment...  The Vision Line Centipedes came in at $2200 MSRP (albeit two powered units) just a couple of years ago.  But aside from the UP road-name, the remaining road-names became dust collectors on dealer shelves.  And even a 50% blow-out for the past 6-9 months STILL isn't moving them into the hands of consumers.  So that's gotta be a sharp poke in the eye for Lionel and its dealer network -- not to mention the Vision Line name. 

But for Lionel execs, Vision Line equates to a mandate for premium dollars.  So let's add $500 on top of the $1100 "just because"... and voila!!!  We're magically at $1600 MSRP.    Estimated pre-order "street price" of $1275-$1350.

At that price-point, I may just have fun watching the marketplace for a while.  Let the dealers order whatever quantities they want... and then just patiently wait for blow-outs in the spirit of Vision Line Centipedes. 

David

David

 I think you're low.   My guess is Scrapiron has nailed it.  I'm betting in the $1799 ranges as well with a street price of about $1500+.  As much as I wanted a GG-1, I would probably opt for the JLC before paying that much.  As others have stated, the addition of a second speaker, sparking effect, IR sensor, Legacy sounds, Legacy speed control, and flexible pantographs is worth some but not an additional $1k to the MSRP over the JLC model.  If they get down to a street price of about $1.1K they may get me to bite for those features. 

As soon as Lionel releases the price we will post it.

Marty,

You are the first poster I have seen to list almost all of the additional benefits of the Vision Line GG-1. Lionel promises stereo sound, too. For me, the flexible pantographs are valuable only to those who have built catenary. That is probably 1% of us. The sparking pantographs are, to me, an obvious effort by Lionel to add something special and unusual like the depleting coal pile on the Vision Big Boy. Regrettably, for me, a GG-1 not under catenary is about as much as I can look at being that I love the GG-1's. Having the pantographs spark will accentuate the fact that there is no catenary there. A depleting coal pile can be interpreted as cool and realistic. Sparking pantographs under invisible catenary is too much of a stretch for me. I guess I will have to build catenary, LOL.

I have absolutely no use for the IR sensor. To me, the IR sensor adds as much as Ipad or Iphone apps. Zero. A second speaker in the loco is going to be nice if the stereo sounds are discernible. GG-1's, like most electrics, do not have the dramatic sounds of steamers or diesels. Hearing the arcing pantographs crackle is, I must say, a little silly. The sounds of my JLC GG-1's are excellent. How much better will Vision sounds be? It's an electric, for goodness sakes. More "chatter" to play . . . . . I'll reserve judgement. Hopefully, I can turn off the arcing pantograph crackle sound. If not . . . . that might be an issue.

I have 17 scale GG-1's and the Lionel JLC versions, along with the Third Rail "Rivets" are my most detailed models. MTH has chimed in with some very good graphic detail and paint. They also have operating pantographs. I will not buy a Vision GG-1 unless it is a paint scheme I don't have (there may be one . . . PC single stripe green) or another Rivets version IF it is done well. Die cast models sometimes fall victim to "muddy" details if the casting is not done well and a "Rivets" version that does not look like the original would be a bust. Lionel, get the rivets right.

I have the feeling Lionel simply does not want to do an Allegheny H-8 as a Vision Line locomotive. The JLC model was fantastic but for Lionel to add whistle steam, blowdown, cylinder effects with all of the JLC level details would mean a list price/street price higher than the Big Boy. I have heard some say that repairing the JLC Allegheny H-8 is very difficult and that may have played in to the Lionel decision, too.

The Vision Line offerings have been very difficult to predict. I think the entire idea of two die cast Centipedes was so silly you cannot even explain it. The added value was spinning fans that ended up as noise makers. How many operators could run more five feet of locomotives ? Offering the GG-1 allows Lionel to avoid major tooling cost but left Lionel with the issue of adding something to a Vision Line product that was "new and revolutionary." The difficulty here is, most collectors have a scale GG-1 so adding another at a street price well over $1,000 is going to be very interesting to watch. Lionel playing "Let's Have A Secret" with the price is probably groping for a way to see what the market will bear and keep producing Vision Line items without having a major tooling expense. 

Though I will probably buy one of these, if only to add to my silly quest to have all the paint schemes, it is a bit of a "Ho-Hum" loco. If I get one, great. If not, "Ho-Hum."

Scrapiron

Lionel ( TALK TO US ) says the price is not yet available but will appear in the catalog.

bob c

Keep repeating...

"I'll never buy one, I'll never buy one..."

Several posts appearing on the OGR Forum next year:

"Here's a pic of my new Vision Line GG-1 that I received today."  

Heres a hint to lionel on prices. 90% of the engines near the 2k mark you can still buy. Bigboy/Centipedes/berkshires .

Second lionel has yet to make a diesel in visionline to be a success .. The Diecast es44s where considered a flop in there eyes..Main reason there so pricey now..

Now theres the GG1 for this engine to work its gonna have to be around the 1k to 1200 to stand a chance ..If they cant make it for that price i wouldnt make it if i was them.. Thats why i laugh at everyone saying they want a visionline santa fe f3 set..It be a 2500 train ..

I wish MTH would step up there game ...Serious its been 6 years and they made one steamer with smoking whistle...

Robert Coniglio posted:

Lionel ( TALK TO US ) says the price is not yet available but will appear in the catalog.

 

bob c

WOW!!!! Isn't THAT a novel idea, i.e. have the price available in the catalog when the catalog comes out.

Lionel may place all the bells and whistles on something, and some people will pay for it.  But after a while the owner will senses will be dulled about the effects, and move on to something else.   Kind of a TOY STORY effect. 

PRR 4900 needs to be done right, because of her construction and being the first GG1.  But the special effects.......not needed.  And how long will there be support for this engine?  At least one can get parts for PRE-War locomotives and cars.

Gentlemen,

   I have the MTH Brunswick Green 4841, P2, 5 Striper & the MTH Brunswick Green 2515, P2 , 1 Striper, they run great single or as a double header, at the front of my Special Forces Train, and combined I did not pay that kind money for them.   If Lionel thinks I am going to pay between $1,400 - $1,600 for another GG1 with their name on it, they are high on drugs.  I like my Legacy stuff, but not enough to even consider dishing out that kind of big money on another GG1.  Without Williams, Weaver & K-Line in business any more, this is the kind of stuff you may see happening even more. These are kids toys a play thing, for me to use my engineering skills with at Christmas time.  Spend your money how you want, but until they come down to a reasonable price, I will not make the investment into a Legacy or Vision line GG1, and I love GG1's.  Do they actually think I need another GG1 that badly that they would insult me in this manner, very foolish business move.  The 317 Northern Pacific Diesel on the 2nd level of my Christmas layout is a Scale Legacy GP 9, when they sell the new Vision Line GG1 for the kind money I payed for the Northern Pacific Legacy, then I will purchase one and not before.

PCRR/Dave

Heres a hint to lionel on prices. 90% of the engines near the 2k mark you can still buy. Bigboy/Centipedes/berkshires .

Just to keep the record straight, Lionel doesn't have any of these engines. They all sold out and are in dealers hands. The BTO program is a success IMO.

Charlienassau posted:

Heres a hint to lionel on prices. 90% of the engines near the 2k mark you can still buy. Bigboy/Centipedes/berkshires .

Just to keep the record straight, Lionel doesn't have any of these engines. They all sold out and are in dealers hands. The BTO program is a success IMO.

Maybe but i bet those Centipedes have to hurt and i have aready seen a few silver berks in the 1800 range.. I think BTO sucks .The customer has to buy something without seeing what its gonna look like..

jojofry posted:

Charlienassau posted:

Heres a hint to lionel on prices. 90% of the engines near the 2k mark you can still buy. Bigboy/Centipedes/berkshires .

Just to keep the record straight, Lionel doesn't have any of these engines. They all sold out and are in dealers hands. The BTO program is a success IMO.

Maybe but i bet those Centipedes have to hurt and i have aready seen a few silver berks in the 1800 range.. I think BTO sucks .The customer has to buy something without see what its gonna look like..

Built to Order is being done by most if not all.  Others just don't call it that.

MartyE posted:

jojofry posted:

Charlienassau posted:

Heres a hint to lionel on prices. 90% of the engines near the 2k mark you can still buy. Bigboy/Centipedes/berkshires .

Just to keep the record straight, Lionel doesn't have any of these engines. They all sold out and are in dealers hands. The BTO program is a success IMO.

Maybe but i bet those Centipedes have to hurt and i have aready seen a few silver berks in the 1800 range.. I think BTO sucks .The customer has to buy something without see what its gonna look like..

Built to Order is being done by most if not all.  Others just don't call it that.

I know marty.I just dont like it...I dont like paying 2k for engines either . Considering i have about 20 legacy engines on my layout and a few mth .. I buy all my train stuff doing side jobs ..Just sad i can buy my wife a stainless bosh diswasher new cheaper then a legacy  engine...

$1,700 I would say and from a good dealer 1,000

Charlienassau posted:

...

Just to keep the record straight, Lionel doesn't have any of these engines. They all sold out and are in dealers hands. The BTO program is a success IMO.

So BTO is doing what many of us said it would... namely, moving the "element of risk" off Lionel's shoulders onto those of the dealers.  And since business is largely based on the old adage, "no risk / no reward", I trust there's been an increase in rewards (i.e., larger profit margin) for dealers to take on this added risk.  Then again, on the other hand, BTO has allowed dealers -- who wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford stocking up on large quantities of inventory -- to roll up their sleeves and do battle prior to the Lionel BTO deadline for pre-orders.  At that point the increased element of risk sits with dealers (of all sizes) who ordered product that consumers may cancel for whatever reason.

Back to the price of the Vision Line GG-1 though... I've been plainly open about the fact that the bicentennial version is the ONLY one that hold any interest to me whatsoever.  At the expected price-points we've been bandying about in this thread, the Pennsy re-issues at those prices are an absolute joke when Mint and Like-New JLC versions are readily available in the market at SUCH attractive price-points.

That being the case... if Lionel gets greedy with the Vision Line GG-1, then we could also sit out the offering and wait to see what MTH may offer.  I've always found it entertaining that Lionel and MTH catalogs tend to have remarkably similar products at times.  Have you noticed this? 

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, this forum's own Steven Nelson (aka MrMuffins Trains) recently bought some (or all) of MTH's remaining inventory of Premier/scale GG-1's with PS3 (at a $799 MSRP) that MTH delivered within the last year or two... and offered some very attractive prices in the $550 range to move them out of inventory -- not to mention he's also entertaining serious offers from potential buyers on many products he's selling.  Last I checked, he's got 3 different paint-schemes of the single-stripe Pennsy models and a 5-stripe Pennsy model still to sell if any of those GG-1 paint schemes are calling your name.

So I'd be quite happy to wait and see if MTH would offer a bicentennial scale GG-1 which would serve my purposes at a much-reduced price-point to anything Lionel might offer.  And for those of us who already own both Legacy and DCS control systems, the costs of those systems is a wash when evaluating the prices of new motive power.

Isn't it great to have alternative options in the market?  It's the closest thing we toy/model train enthusiasts have to a built-in system of checks and balances preventing any one importer from pushing the price envelope uncontrollably in our little corner of the world.

Let's see... which model would you buy?  An existing JLC GG-1 at $450-$550?  Or an existing MTH scale GG-1 at $550... or even a newer MTH bicentennial paint scheme offering at closer to the $799 or even $899 MSRP?  Or a Lionel Vision Line GG-1 at the stratospheric price-points we've talked about here -- namely $1275-$1450 "street prices" on a $1600-$1800 MSRP?

I know what I would do.  Do you?

David