Lionel vs Atlas Diesels

Forget both of 'em and go with Sunset 3rd Rail! I sold off my legacy diesels a while ago and couldn't be happier!... my entire diesel collection is sunset 3rd rail now... All sound, All powered, large powerful horizontal motor, 100 speed steps just like legacy, best detail in the business! 

I am much more interested in prototypically correct paint & details. Thus, if the model operates smoothly and quietly (with the sound shut off for testing), I could care less about all the "Legacy Features". The few Atlas diesel models I have, operate beautifully, and the one Lionel early Legacy (Rock Island GP7) operates very smoothly as well. However, that said, I still prefer my newest diesel model, an EMD SD7 demonstrator, from Sunset/3rd Rail! 

 Atlas is electronically Lionel inside, so they will run as well as any Lionel locomotive having equivalent levels of electronic features. The early Atlas had no cruise control, but run pretty well. Legacy should run Atlas as well as it runs non-Legacy Lionel/Weaver/K-Line TMCC - I have the "reverse" experience with that - I have TMCC on my layout, but I do have a couple or three Legacy locos (SD-40-2; USRA 2-6-6-2, for example) and they run just fine under TMCC - as they were designed to do.

The same should be true of Legacy/Atlas, I would think. 

Hot Water posted:

I am much more interested in prototypically correct paint & details. Thus, if the model operates smoothly and quietly (with the sound shut off for testing), I could care less about all the "Legacy Features". The few Atlas diesel models I have, operate beautifully, and the one Lionel early Legacy (Rock Island GP7) operates very smoothly as well. However, that said, I still prefer my newest diesel model, an EMD SD7 demonstrator, from Sunset/3rd Rail! 

If it weren't for your diagram Jack, that Demonstrator wouldn't have turned out nearly as well as it did!  Thanks as always!

When it comes to manufacturer, it is always about the quality and accuracy of the details for me as well. but it always depends on the model.  To be fair my modern Lionel locomotive collection is small.  Two Atlantic steam locomotives and a JLC GG1 electric and no diesels.   None have the Legacy command system.  Furthermore, I haven't purchased an Atlas locomotive in many years.  However, I am very satisfied overall with the Atlas models I have as they tend to ride at a decent height and have excellent details.  Even the Trainman line has excellent quality.

Like others my preference is for 3rd Rail / Sunset locomotives, but I am biased. 

"How do Atlas diesels ran in TMCC compare to Lionel Legacy diesels? "

No major operating differences for basic functions. Same with older Weaver TMCC equipped locos and Sunset/3rd Rail.  Same TMCC technologies for three rail as Lionel, in essence.

I demand perfect operation on the engines I buy.  I am mainly an MTH guy but do love those Lionel Legacy diesels.  I have many.   Atlas and others mentioned do not measure up in my book to Lionel Legacy.  TMCC is a thing of the past.  Another consideration in my decision is parts availability.  Lionel is much better than Atlas.  Guys that complain about detail are in another group.  Guys these are all toy trains that run on 3 rail track by electric motors.  Prototype, I do not think so.  I am a toy train guy and do not get overly excited over detail.  I do get excited when I can not get parts.  Lionel parts can be had and had very quickly.   I am not a tire kicker as I own 300+ locomotives.  Atlas engines are great looking.  For the reasons I mentioned above, I do not own any.   I run my trains every day.  They get lots of operation.

I am not waving an orange flag.   The Legacy locomotives are my choice.  PARTS_PARTS_PARTS.  I order parts on Monday and have them on Thursday.   Dean Brasseur is doing a great job at Lionel parts.  On the MTH side, Jason Wenzel is doing a great job considering he did not follow a Mike Reagan.   

Just to clarify - Lionel TMCC engines have 32 speed  steps, Atlas has 100 speed steps. Lionel Legacy has 200 speed steps.

Right now I have a switching shunt puzzle on the layout and really enjoy the 200 speed steps the Legacy model offers.

again just my views - I have owed over 10 each Atlas O  and Lionel trains--

Atlas O-   Master line trains - super detailed and very specific to prototype.   Trainman trains less detail but cheaper.   Atlas runs Lionel TMCC - the newer trains run better with the 100 step older trains with 32 step can be kind of clunky compared to Lionel Legacy.    Only company that still makes TMCC trains - I don't understand why Lionel won't license Legacy to Atlas - its over 10 years old now and Lionel does not even make TMCC trains.    I am not sure on parts availability

Lionel -  detail has much improved - Lionel finally gets it we spend $800 on a train we want it to look nice.   I run the new Lion Chief plus line - I have 6 of them- they are less detail then the Legacy trains but closing the gap.   I have 8 Legacy trains-  the ones made after 2012 are better.   I love the Legacy hand control and the various options - I think Legacy trains are very smooth in operation.  I run the latest Legacy software.  

If I had to choose - I would go with Legacy as my first choice then Lion Chief plus then Atlas O with TMCC

I only have two active Atlas O - Master I still run - a  GP60 Rio Grande - super detailed had newer TMCC system - I like 4 axle GPs mostly and the GP60 is the last one I think we will see.    Seems like all they make in real life and in the hobby are SD 6 axles.

My other Atlas O Master is my oldest train that I still own and run.   It is a Alco switcher I purchased in 2004 if I remember.   No smoke but Atlas geared this little train for switching and it is very smooth in operations.   I like the "dash lights" in the cab even light up.   It still runs like a Swiss watch. 

I certainly love all three of them. I have been collecting Atlas O diesels since I started in O Gauge in 2000 and I have over 100 of them..... the thing I like the best about them is their durability.... I can run and run and run them. When we built the first public layout, we had a lashup running every Saturday on the same loop for at least 6 hours for over a year. If there's an Atlas diesel out there you'd like to have, I wouldn't shy away from it. 

I appreciate all the feedback and comments.  Very helpful.  You gave me some things to think about.

I've always liked dealing with the folks at Atlas, too ..... both HO and O over many years.

Now that the GP7's are in production, I hope it's smooth sailing from now on with engine production.

All of the manufacturers mentioned above, Lionel, Atlas O, MTH, 3Rd Rail, all run great on the right track, wired correctly with plenty of power. Your trackwork makes a huge difference in all of the above. Now, in Command, Atlas O, 3Rd Rail are using the older 4.0 Lionel RS. Therefore with 100 speed steps, not quite the control. Now, Legacy actually has 200 speed steps, smoother operation. Again, all run good, it’s a close call on which is best. Most all of the Steamers and Diesels produced today have good can motors, which really enhances operation. One difference that 3Rd Rail is Now Doing is using Canon Motors with belt drive...It’s nice. I to have many Atlas O Diesels and love them. Most of my engines are Lionel Legacy, VisionLine.  Trackwork, wiring, good signals, smooth operation with plenty of power. Happy Railroading.

RickO posted:

 As far as sound goes. I believe Atlas diesels only have 4 RPM levels. Legacy locos have the prototypical 8 RPM levels.

Which of course is really cool, even if the details and paint color/styling is incorrect!!

Lionel Sounds are the most robust, in Legacy mode. Atlas O Not quite as robust. The Lionel VisionLine sounds are awesome...

RickO posted:

Apparently you didn't read/comprehend the OP's post , HOT WATER

"How do Atlas diesels ran in TMCC compare to Lionel Legacy diesels?  Specifically in how they run and sound. "

OK, so even if the paint color and physical details are WRONG,,,,,,,great sound is acceptable? NOT in my opinion!     My two Atlas CB&Q diesels are prototypically CORRECT, they run VERY smooth performing perfectly through Atlas turnouts, and sound just fine.

I rather have, in order, an engine which runs well, is correct in paint and details, and really do not care about smoke and sound.

That is good to know about 4 rpm levels on Atlas.  I'm used to 8 on Lionel.  Guess I'd get used to it  

Question on an Atlas diesel like the Dash 8-40CW.  Wondering how trucks with 3 axles can handle O36 curves. I'm not super picky about where headlights are or perfect color matches but I do not like unflanged wheels on a 3 axle truck hanging over a turn. Does Atlas have unflanged wheels on 3 axle trucks?

Regarding Sunset, are there diesels out there to buy?  Looking for big road diesels like ES44, Dash 8 etc. I looked on their website and only saw steam.  Any recommendations for Sunset dealers?

Tanner111 posted:

That is good to know about 4 rpm levels on Atlas.  I'm used to 8 on Lionel.  Guess I'd get used to it  

Question on an Atlas diesel like the Dash 8-40CW.  Wondering how trucks with 3 axles can handle O36 curves. I'm not super picky about where headlights are or perfect color matches but I do not like unflanged wheels on a 3 axle truck hanging over a turn. Does Atlas have unflanged wheels on 3 axle trucks?

Regarding Sunset, are there diesels out there to buy?  Looking for big road diesels like ES44, Dash 8 etc. I looked on their website and only saw steam.  Any recommendations for Sunset dealers?

If you have 036 curves don’t expect to run anything that is scale.  Not going to work.  There are a few 3rdrail dealers out there but most buy direct from third rail.  There are diesels on the website so check again.  Since 3rdrail does limited runs they sell out mostly.

superwarp1 posted:

Tanner111 posted:

That is good to know about 4 rpm levels on Atlas.  I'm used to 8 on Lionel.  Guess I'd get used to it  

Question on an Atlas diesel like the Dash 8-40CW.  Wondering how trucks with 3 axles can handle O36 curves. I'm not super picky about where headlights are or perfect color matches but I do not like unflanged wheels on a 3 axle truck hanging over a turn. Does Atlas have unflanged wheels on 3 axle trucks?

Regarding Sunset, are there diesels out there to buy?  Looking for big road diesels like ES44, Dash 8 etc. I looked on their website and only saw steam.  Any recommendations for Sunset dealers?

If you have 036 curves don’t expect to run anything that is scale.  Not going to work.  There are a few 3rdrail dealers out there but most buy direct from third rail.  There are diesels on the website so check again.  Since 3rdrail does limited runs they sell out mostly.

I wasn't clear. I have O54. Wondering how that Atlas engine can handle O36?  According to the catalog. 

Well if you put on the fixed pilots on not very well. To me diesels look stupid with those swinging pilots and over sized lobster claws

The bottom line, at least to me, is that you'd be happy with Atlas engines, based on your opening statement. They have TMCC, sure, but with Electric Railroad cruise control, and they've always been very smooth runners. Atlas engines also have outstanding detail. Sunset/3rd Rail engines are certainly nice, but they're expensive. In any case, there's only one way to see how you like Atlas O engines, and that's to buy one and run it. It's not a big risk, so just do it if you like one of their engines. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Tanner111 posted:

....... Regarding Sunset, are there diesels out there to buy?  Looking for big road diesels like ES44, Dash 8 etc. I looked on their website and only saw steam.  Any recommendations for Sunset dealers?

Sunset has none of the modern diesels you want. If they were to do one in the future .... it will be well north of $700.

Good luck.

Atlas diesels are particularly difficult to reassemble after you have pulled the motor to grease the worm gear. The drive axle with the worm wheel comes out and often there are clear plastic shims under the bearings that must be located just so.  Also, Atlas seems to use five sizes of screws, where Williams will use one.

Lubricating your loco should not be this difficult.

EBT Jim posted:

Tanner111 posted:

....... Regarding Sunset, are there diesels out there to buy?  Looking for big road diesels like ES44, Dash 8 etc. I looked on their website and only saw steam.  Any recommendations for Sunset dealers?

Sunset has none of the modern diesels you want. If they were to do one in the future .... it will be well north of $700.

Good luck.

"Well north of $700" is a bit of a  mischaracterization as it would likely be right around $700...

Just remember, you get what you pay for. Lionel may be cheaper but it's still well overpriced for what you get with regards to their "scale" diesels... And I'm not talking about their catalog prices, anyone who pays sticker price for a new Lionel engine is a fool. As of late, the "dealer discounts" have been inflated too now with their minimum advertised pricing. It's almost like ya gotta know a guy who knows a guy to order a new Lionel Diesel anywhere near what it should be priced at. Now before ya throw me in the same group as rocky , I stand behind my preaching. I have never ordered any Lionel diesels, only 3rd rail diesels on my layout. Steamers, that's another story, but my rant is about diesels...

Scott doesn't have to artificially inflate the prices of his products and then hand out endless discounts to entice orders. People order them at their advertised price and for the most part, they are near sold out by the time they arrive. 

So before you go after 3rd rails pricing, which is spelled out in plain English on their website... Think about the micky mouse games Lionel plays with you and their dealers on just about everything they catalog. 

BigJohn&theWork posted:

EBT Jim posted:

Sunset has none of the modern diesels you want. If they were to do one in the future .... it will be well north of $700.

Good luck.

"Well north of $700" is a bit of a  mischaracterization as it would likely be right around $700... So before you go after 3rd rails pricing, which is spelled out in plain English on their website.....

I went by 3rd Rail's $730 website price for the SD40-2 .... and thinking that the price would quite possibly be higher if they ever did a big, modern diesel.

Tanner111 .... Steve at MrMuffins Trains may be able to give you more up-to-date delivery info for the various Atlas Master Dash 8-40B's and Atlas Trainman Dash 8-40CW's.

I've just started collecting Atlas O Diesels. I am a fan of their attention to detail. At least they can get the Paint colors right too.

EBT Jim posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

EBT Jim posted:

Sunset has none of the modern diesels you want. If they were to do one in the future .... it will be well north of $700.

Good luck.

"Well north of $700" is a bit of a  mischaracterization as it would likely be right around $700... So before you go after 3rd rails pricing, which is spelled out in plain English on their website.....

I went by 3rd Rail's $730 website price for the SD40-2 .... and thinking that the price would quite possibly be higher if they ever did a big, modern diesel.

Tanner111 .... Steve at MrMuffins Trains may be able to give you more up-to-date delivery info for the various Atlas Master Dash 8-40B's and Atlas Trainman Dash 8-40CW's.

EBT Jim... I guess there is some confusion of what "well north" is. $30 is more like barely North

In my opinion, Legacy isn't worth the extra expense. Nearly twice the price for the extra "fluff". I just need an engine to go forward and reverse smoothly, and electro couplers are a big plus. I don't care if an engine has sound or smoke. Smoke I turn off, and sound I turn all the way down, because I find it annoying when it's loud.

I have really become a fan of Atlas diesels because they run well, and are less expensive to boot.

Tanner111 posted:

That is good to know about 4 rpm levels on Atlas.  I'm used to 8 on Lionel.  Guess I'd get used to it  

Question on an Atlas diesel like the Dash 8-40CW.  Wondering how trucks with 3 axles can handle O36 curves. I'm not super picky about where headlights are or perfect color matches but I do not like unflanged wheels on a 3 axle truck hanging over a turn. Does Atlas have unflanged wheels on 3 axle trucks?

Regarding Sunset, are there diesels out there to buy?  Looking for big road diesels like ES44, Dash 8 etc. I looked on their website and only saw steam.  Any recommendations for Sunset dealers?

Atlas six-axle models have blind (no flange) center wheel sets. That’s kind of become standard for three-rail models designed over the last 8-10 years:

Atlas SD40

Im expecting the new Trainman Dash 8s will be the same. (I can let you know when they arrive). MTH already has made a fairly nice model of the Dash 8, so that’s an option too:

MTH also did the original standard cab.  If you want an accurate Dash 8, avoid the Lionel model. Ditto for the Dash 9, which is different. Both Lionel and MTH offer credible ES44s. The MTH Premier model reflects early production while the Lionel reflects late production features, as does the MTH Railking Imperial “semi-scale” version.  MTH also does a very nice AC4400CW. There are a lot of options for modern diesels.

RM

At least for the railroads I model, Atlas does a very good job of getting paint schemes and details correct. This is probably because of their extensive experience in making accurate HO and N models where their customers demand accuracy.

The ERR equipped engines operate very smoothly, however the ERR RS4 supplied sound sets are OK but limited compared to MTH and Lionel. My main gripe on the sound system is there are just four engine RPM levels instead of the actual eight. You get through the four levels in just the first 5 or 6 speed steps when the engine is still moving slowly. Lionel doesn't seem to be inclined to allow this to change so Atlas (and 3RD Rail) is stuck with the older sound sets.

I bought an Atlas Trainmain U23b and it came with just two pickup rollers. The Master Line diesels come with 4 rollers. My Trainman engine stalled frequently at low speed on Atlas track. The engine trucks were set up to take the additional rollers so I contacted Atlas to get them and they didn't have them in stock with no indication when or if they would get them in. Fortunately I had a dummy Master Line engine with the extra pickup rollers so I moved them to the Trainman engine and now the engine runs great with no stalling. The Trainman engines are a good value, but not coming with four rollers is a real design flaw.

Ken

kanawha posted:

 

I bought an Atlas Trainmain U23b and it came with just two pickup rollers. My Trainman engine stalled frequently at low speed on Atlas track. The engine trucks were set up to take the additional rollers so I contacted Atlas to get them and they didn't have them in stock with no indication when or if they would get them in. The Trainman engines are a good value, but not coming with four rollers is a real design flaw.

Ken

 

 

I was seriously considering buying 2 Atlas Trainman diesels, but this is a deal breaker for me.  I have a lot of switches on my mains and I don't want to deal with this.  Atlas, how much are 2 pickup rollers?  $1?  Put them on and raise the price by $2.  Seriously.

Tanner111 posted:

kanawha posted:

 

I bought an Atlas Trainmain U23b and it came with just two pickup rollers. My Trainman engine stalled frequently at low speed on Atlas track. The engine trucks were set up to take the additional rollers so I contacted Atlas to get them and they didn't have them in stock with no indication when or if they would get them in. The Trainman engines are a good value, but not coming with four rollers is a real design flaw.

Ken

 

 

I was seriously considering buying 2 Atlas Trainman diesels, but this is a deal breaker for me.  I have a lot of switches on my mains and I don't want to deal with this.  Atlas, how much are 2 pickup rollers?  $1?  Put them on and raise the price by $2.  Seriously.

Same thing for me. I bought one GP15 and would have purchased a few more of the others as well. Poor performance with two rollers and poor customer service on the GP15 with problems out of the box. Sent it to Atlas, came back with a report saying my track was dirty. I eventually found an bad solder joint on a motor driver molex connector. They look great on the shelf though!

I got into the hobby about 17 years ago.  I have found that my Atlas locomotives had minimal problems.  The only issues I had were the CNW RS1's...couplers broke and some sound board issues.  Atlas fixed those issues.  I have 10 Atlas locos.  I have 7 Lionel locos, but only one Legacy.  The Legacy is a Burl Route S2 that I just bought.  All the other Lionel locomotives had soundboards that went out.  As noted above, I'll take dependable operation vs. the fluff on the Legacy locos.  I run TMCC and haven't upgraded for that extra fluff.   

Atlas is very nice, but I would replace the sound and command control system if you don't like TMCC. I've seen some people replace their boards with Proto Sound 2 and 3 boards, and their locos turn out very nice. Proto 3 is good if you have a Dash 8 in Amtrak colors, as the Railking sound set from 2013 is pretty good when it comes to engine sound. The compressor "whoop" is incorporated, along with decent rev sounds. However, it does lack the mechanical bell sound as that is an e bell in the sound set and the horn is a mediocre K5LA. I'm sure there is a better one but you get the idea. Plenty of options if you replace the board.

Boo Man posted:

I have 7 Lionel locos, but only one Legacy.  The Legacy is a Burl Route S2 that I just bought.  All the other Lionel locomotives had soundboards that went out.  As noted above, I'll take dependable operation vs. the fluff on the Legacy locos.  I run TMCC and haven't upgraded for that extra fluff.   

You must be the unluckiest guy on the planet if you have lost sound boards from every Lionel locomotive!  FWIW, the sound boards in those TMCC locomotives are EXACTLY the same hardware as in the Atlas locomotives.  Hard to imagine the sound boards know which brand of locomotive they're in and only fail in Lionel locomotives.

Me, I'll take Legacy first, MTH DCS next, then Lionel TMCC.  Atlas comes in close to last, my experience is that many of them are a major PITA to work on.  The narrow body diesels are especially bad to work on.  Don't get me started on the oddball electrocouplers...

i will make the same comment I made elsewhere, my 4 Atlas locos look great, run great and have great detail.  As said above, colors are great and since Atlas seems be be bashed by those supposedly in the know, they are readily available on the secondary market for a fraction of the cost of a Legacy or MTH loco.  Oh wait, that's right, that secondary market is for sissies.  Atlas will work with basic TMCC which is fine with me, simple is better.  Cruise control?  Well I like to operate the train so if I have to have my hand on the control to vary speed that is OK in my book.  I also turn off the smoke and keep the sound down low.  If TMCC is a thing of the past I suppose conventional rates with the dinosaurs.  My 2 cents, buy what you like and what appeals to you.  You will not go wrong with Atlas.  These are toys folks, lets not make them more than they are and just enjoy the hobby no matter which company we chose.

Well, they are toys, I just like my toys to have better sound, cruise control, and cool smoke features.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Boo Man posted:

I have 7 Lionel locos, but only one Legacy.  The Legacy is a Burl Route S2 that I just bought.  All the other Lionel locomotives had soundboards that went out.  As noted above, I'll take dependable operation vs. the fluff on the Legacy locos.  I run TMCC and haven't upgraded for that extra fluff.   

You must be the unluckiest guy on the planet if you have lost sound boards from every Lionel locomotive!  FWIW, the sound boards in those TMCC locomotives are EXACTLY the same hardware as in the Atlas locomotives.  Hard to imagine the sound boards know which brand of locomotive they're in and only fail in Lionel locomotives.

Me, I'll take Legacy first, MTH DCS next, then Lionel TMCC.  Atlas comes in close to last, my experience is that many of them are a major PITA to work on.  The narrow body diesels are especially bad to work on.  Don't get me started on the oddball electrocouplers...

John,

I know you work on them.  I could send all the Lionel locos to you to prove my point.  The sound is not working on them.  Whether it is the soundboard or something else, bottom line is that there is a sound issue with the Lionel diesels I have.  For the amount of money they cost me, I'd expect them to last longer without issue and that is unlucky.  

Bob

One of the long term diesels, from Atlas, that has been around since at least 1998 is the SW model.  An O-scale offering, that has a horizontal, single motor drive system.   Early offerings had Dallee electronics, some can be found on E-bay, at very low prices.  About 2001 the modular TMCC system was added to these diesels, though not speed control. The Atlas SW has electro-couplers, direction oriented lighting, and sound.    The design of the horizontal drive was good enough, that low speed operation, and a need for speed control, was, IMO, not needed.  The design also allowed for a pretty good cab detail, an issue, with most SW models, using the twin, vertical can design.  Today the Atlas SW has ERR electronics.   For some reason, over my short model railroad life, I have acquired a lot of Atlas, most are SW models.  Pictured, are (6) custom paints.  Note: Atlas does offer undecorated models.

The GP7, front, is also a custom paint.   An Atlas undecorated model.

Here is a video of an all Atlas consist.  The GP7 and (4) SW9's are all powered, operating as a train, (TR), via early TMCC handheld Cab1 and Command base, I do not have Legacy.  Mouse-over image and click on the triangle for a Photobucket video.