That seems very odd to me; why not have photos (with proper credits) by a Lobaugh expert on their site? 🤔 I don't get it...
Mark in Oregon
Sounds like they are clueless blithering idiots.......
No - they are knowledgeable, and aware of copyright laws, at least at a superficial level. They may not be aware of the concept of plagiarism, which is not illegal, but considered unethical. They at first promised attribution, and may still come to the conclusion that it is best that they do so. Several of my friends are aware of their proclivity for lifting photos.
As I understand it, all are lifted from OGR forum, and the thought is that if it isn't marked, it is not copyright. That was true a quarter century ago, but no longer - you do not need to mark or register to hold a copyright.
Here is a summary of the statute - https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
I note that TCA Western initially agreed to attribution, and we mutually agreed to give them some time to do so. They now say it is easier to remove the photos, which, while not as good as keeping them with attribution, at least is not misleading, and is an ethical stance.
The funny part may be that how likely is it that any new to them photos of trains that they "lift" might also come from your archives lol. Or they will find a bunch of Carey's photos and link them until he says something.
Here is a link to their site.
http://tcawestern.org/lobaugh.htm
A quick glance can show obvious inaccuracies - had they checked, we could easily (and happily) have provided correct information. For instance, here is my scratchbuilt AC-6 in 17/64:
While this is not the exact photo they used, this is the exact model. It is not a Lobaugh 1941.
Then the next photo down is from a 1939 Lobaugh catalog (Joe Giannovario scanned it for me, and my use of it is probably a copyright infringement). I see not much wrong in using it, except that it is captioned as a post-war Mike.
In fact, the second photo in this fairly inaccurate text is closer to the postwar Mike, except it is scratchbuilt, using Henry Pearce castings and bar rail brass tube. This sort of error threads through the entire section, and I assume they have done the same for other manufacturers as well.
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I dropped by their website and I see they have used some of my pictures as well. I understand bob2's point of view. As has been said, everyone is different and, for me, the lack of attribution for something I posted in the venue of an open forum such as OGR or CTT isn't an issue. On the other hand, pictures I do care about are only submitted to sites like Railpictures. So far as I know, pictures from places like Railpictures, when displayed on other sites, have included attribution.
This forum had problems with folks lifting photos from places like "railpictures" and re-posting here. It has pretty much stopped due to careful moderation and education.
TCA Western has so far acceded to my wishes. They have lifted and placed other Lobaugh photos in place of mine. That is good enough for me. I think they will be removing my photos from All Nation, Walthers, Scale Craft, Icken, and Alexander next week. Here is part of their response:
Please check the Lobaugh page to verify that all your listed pictures have been removed. And please let us know if any were missed. As much as we enjoyed using those original images, as found on the WWW on web sites that did not claim copyrighted materials, or require permission to use them, we have located alternative pictures of most all of the very same models.
You can see that they think that, since OGR did not identify these images as copyright, they are not copyright. That may have been true in 1990, but now a federal law protects my images, no matter how many forums repeat them. I do not need to register them or put a copyright "c" on them. But thanks to TCA-Western for at least not using my images without attribution.
Take a look at the link. They appear to have done a credible job using others' photos. I haven't checked the accuracy, since any mistakes can no longer be perceived as related to my work.
They certainly haven't removed or accredited all photos lifted from OGR. The photo I took of my All Nation 4-4-2 leads the topic on that manufacturer. Cropping the background couldn't disguise the locos " WESTERN" signature on the running boards.
The photo, pre-existing nowhere else but here on OGR, is proof that all content posted is free game. Not that it matters much to me, but the copyright policing seems to only protect OGR and not it's membership.
Bruce
Copyrights and patents protect only those who pursue their legal rights. There is nothing automatic about it; the government will not prosecute them for you.
Arm yourself with a teeny bit of research, then contact TCA-Western - Harold Shapiro is my contact. Ask him politely to give you attribution on your photo. If he tells you it is easier to replace your photos, ask him to do that.
If enough of us ask, they will probably expend the effort to get it right. I think all of us would allow free use if accurate and properly attributed.
Yes, they have admitted to me that they freely lift photos from OGR. That is a violation of the DMCA.
Let me add that the DMCA is really the Digital Millenium Copyright Act - a federal law passed in October 1998. My understanding is that it stops this sort of activity, but only if you take action.
It carefully notes that material you originate and post on the internet is yours, and need not be registered or marked. If someone else, without your permission, lifts and re-posts, you can send them a DMCA Takedown Notice. Or better, you can send it to their "OSP" - online Service provider.
They can choose to ignore that, but there are teeth - if you go to court and prevail, you will apparently get lawyers' fees and costs.
The better way, with TCA Western, is to ask politely - they are apparently willing.
Most fascinating and enlightening! Was I an American citizen the option of legal action could become a last resort. Whereas the mass lifting of your photos holds far more importance that the issue be corrected.
My concerns lay elsewhere. I don't have an issue with one of my photos being lifted, rather that OGR allows it. After all, I handed over content control through TOS simply by posting the shot here and nowhere but here. Like the comedian said " I'm just happy to be anywhere at my age" when it comes to WWW property.
The engine has since had the paintwork finished but remains undecorated. I would complete the job in SP livery but for the lack of a vandy. I'm currently banging away at an All Nation 4-8-4. It had previously converted to a Canadian Pacific 3100 series, albeit very generic. It requires loads of straightening and soldering before I apply the royal CP colours.
Bruce
Not OGR’s fault. It is difficult to block folks from stealing photos or text off the internet.
Mostly, stealing the work of others and not attributing it is just plagiarism, and simply not ethical. But since 1998 it has been illegal.
I am not an expert, but I think if enough folks mention this, TCA will come around, and re-do their manufacturer’s index using folks like me as source material. Happy to help; not happy to have my images mis-used with erroneous captions.
@brwebster posted:...I'm currently banging away at an All Nation 4-8-4. It had previously converted to a Canadian Pacific 3100 series, albeit very generic. It requires loads of straightening and soldering before I apply the royal CP colours.
Bruce
Was this a Mountain type that was converted? I'm under the impression that the 4-8-2 was as big as All Nation offered...(?) Having said that, I would love to see some "in progress" pictures and I bet others would too! 😊
Mark in Oregon
@Strummer posted:Was this a Mountain type that was converted? I'm under the impression that the 4-8-2 was as big as All Nation offered...(?) Having said that, I would love to see some "in progress" pictures and I bet others would too! 😊
Mark in Oregon
Now everybody wants my photos! 😂
I will endevour to take some and figure out what is plaguing my ability to load them on this confounded new puter.
I also question whether AN officially made a Northern. There is a large amount of metal missing from the frame ( performed none too professionally ) to accommodate the 4 wheel trailer.
Bruce
Hello all GMC offered the Mountain in 1949and continued by All Nation in the 50's .
1950 GMC came out with the articulated 50 or 100 kits were offered
All Nation did a small run of the castings again in the 60's .
Articulated was the largest of the GMC / AN family
Please see link for Articulated in action
Cheers Carey
