Location of insulated rails

Don, congratulations on the track laying milestone.  The important take away from this diagram is that Common (or ground if you prefer) from the transformer goes to the outer rail that is also connected to the rest of the layout.  It doesn't matter whether this Common connected outer rail is towards the middle or to the outside of the layout.

@Don Baird posted:

I have finished laying the tubular track for one of my main lines. Every 6 to 10 pieces of track I placed a power drop:  power to the center rail, ground to the outer rail closest to center of the layout.
I’ve placed insulated rails where I will need them. The insulated rail is also the rail closest to the center of the layout.
Because of some difficulties I am having I purchased Peter Riddles “Wiring Your Toy Train Layout.”

Too my surprise he says the transformer ground and the insulated track should be on different sides of the track. See photo.

Please tell me I don’t need to pull my track (better now than later, however)

The insulated outer rail orientation, just needs to be on the opposite side of the center rail from the main Common connected outer rail that runs all the way around the layout.  This insulated rail gets connected to the Common (or ground) feeding the accessories.

If you have the transformer's Common connected directly to the insulated rail, you just need to move that wire to the other outside rail that's not insulated and move the common/ground wire going to the accessories over to the insulated outer rail.

I hope this helps.

@SteveH posted:

Don, congratulations on the track laying milestone.  The important take away from this diagram is that Common (or ground if you prefer) from the transformer goes to the outer rail that is also connected to the rest of the layout.  It doesn't matter whether this Common connected outer rail is towards the middle or to the outside of the layout.

The insulated outer rail orientation, just needs to be on the opposite side of the center rail from the main Common connected outer rail that runs all the way around the layout.  This insulated rail gets connected to the Common (or ground) feeding the accessories.

If you have the transformer's Common connected directly to the insulated rail, you just need to move that wire to the other outside rail that's not insulated.

I hope this helps.

Steve, could it cause a voltage drop if one connects the transformer's common to the insulated rail, and could that voltage drop be eliminated by doing what you recommend, which is connecting the common wire to the other outside rail that's not insulated? Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Steve, could it cause a voltage drop if one connects the transformer's common to the insulated rail, and could that voltage drop be eliminated by doing what you recommend, which is connecting the common wire to the other outside rail that's not insulated? Arnold

Arthur, I'm net entirely sure what you're asking, maybe some more specifics about where the voltage drop you're proposing is occurring.

However, if the transformer's Common is only connected to the insulated rail and not to any other track or other Common bus feeding the track, then yes there could be a noticeable voltage drop on the whole track.  In fact, unless there is some other electrical path for Common to reach the main outside rails, the only way in this scenario there would be any voltage on the main part of the track (outside the insulated section, is when a train car is sitting on the insulated track section completing the electrical circuit from the transformer to the insulated rail through the train wheels/axles to the primary outside rail.   Even this would cause some voltage drop because of the resistance between the track and wheels.  How much voltage drop would depend upon how clean the wheels and track are, among other things.

Also, if the connections from 1) transformer Common to the main Outer Rail and 2) insulated rail to Accessory common are swapped with each other, weird things can happen.

IMO, it's best to connect the Transformer Common to the main outside rail.  Is there some benefit to connecting things the other way around that I'm overlooking?

Don, if you’re using tubular track your ok. The ties connect both outer rails. That’s why we must place tape or thin cardboard under the insulated rail.

Insulated rail detection has been around a long time, does work and I have used it in my layout. However, the IR detection and magnetic detection schemes work so much better and are more reliable.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Insulated rail detection has been around a long time, does work and I have used it in my layout. However, the IR detection and magnetic detection schemes work so much better and are more reliable.

Bob,

Define "more reliable".

We've had many complaints on this forum about how IR is fooled too often by room lighting, and is too sensitive to the colors of the cars passing by.  Has it been an excessive number?  Probably not, but they are still there.  As a result I don't see it as being much different than insulated rail.

Magnetic is a different story however, and is probably much more robust, but of course requires adding magnets to pieces of rolling stock in order to function.  This might be too much engineering unless you're a true tinkerer, which many of us on this forum are not (judging from the kinds of comments we often see).

Mike

My experience with insulated rail is that about 20% of whatever rolls over the insulated rail setup does not properly connect the rails. Very hard to predict or when discovered, correct. Properly installed IR and magnetic systems don't have this problem.

@BOB WALKER posted:

My experience with insulated rail is that about 20% of whatever rolls over the insulated rail setup does not properly connect the rails. Very hard to predict or when discovered, correct. Properly installed IR and magnetic systems don't have this problem.

Not my experience.  Every piece operates very nearly every time.  I'd say at about 99%.  As long as the track and wheels are clean only one out of a hundred passing cars won't trip.

My device is a 262 Flashing Crossing Gate that I've had for 50 years.

It probably helps that there are several cars in a row shunting the insulating section at the same time, but the technique is very reliable.

Mike

@BOB WALKER posted:

My experience with insulated rail is that about 20% of whatever rolls over the insulated rail setup does not properly connect the rails. Very hard to predict or when discovered, correct. Properly installed IR and magnetic systems don't have this problem.

I see a similar thing with non-derailing switches.  I even extended the non-derailing insulated rail about 6" and about 3-4% of the time an engine coming out of the yard doesn't trip the switch.  Yes, the wheels are clean.

As has been discussed many times previously, if you use DC and relays with capacitors, the dirty rail/dirty wheel problems will not affect the operation. Cheap (or free) DC supplies are available (think wall warts) and all it takes is to run a wire from each insulated rail to its own relay, and then the accessory is powered using AC from the relay. Once you establish the DC supply and bus wires, the rest is just as easy to install as the original AC method.  The result is steady operation of accessories, and no chattering of switch motors.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

As has been discussed many times previously, if you use DC and relays with capacitors, the dirty rail/dirty wheel problems will not affect the operation.

Insulated Track Signal Driver, Rev. 2

I think the reason the Author of the Wiring Book suggests the Common Ground should be opposite the insulated Rail is the opposite side would be a continuous run impacted only by the Rail Joiner Pins. By using the same side as the insulated rail you are relying on the ties to connect the circuit for the outer Rails. There will be some ties where the Paint creates a potential/partial insulated barrier to connecting the circuit - IE: the voltage drop some people mention in this thread. If you have enough Power Drops it might not be a significant issue but the potential is there for a problem.

Will the insulated track signal driver work with the MTH RR crossing gate? Please see attached.

@ironman1 posted:

Will the insulated track signal driver work with the MTH RR crossing gate? Please see attached.

Sure, the MTH 30-11012 Crossing Gate will work fine with the Insulated Track Signal Driver, Rev. 2.

Will one driver activate more than one crossing gate or other devices at multiple locations on a layout?

Sure, obviously it'll only be one trigger, but the board has a 10 amp relay.  All of the devices would be activated at the same time together with one board.

2 crossing gates opposite each other, no problem then.

Nope, a dozen crossing gates would be fine.

https://hennings-trains.shopli...al-driver-rev-2.html

Nice.

@SteveH posted:

…

The insulated outer rail orientation, just needs to be on the opposite side of the center rail from the main Common connected outer rail that runs all the way around the layout.  This insulated rail gets connected to the Common (or ground) feeding the accessories.

Thank you Steve (I guess!) for clearly explaining the disadvantage to my current wiring.
I am tempted to bank on Romiller49’s comment, but I understand the potential problem.
I did MISTATE one thing about the layout:  the non-insulated track is connected through power drops to common buss which also serves everything powered by my ZW.

The outside rail drops on insulated track are on the same outside rail. Those are connected to signals and accessories which are respond to passing trains. Those signals etc are all powered by constant accessory power.
Once I move drops to the common buss to the other outside rail, will this system work?  It won’t matter if I move the insulated track instead of the non-insulated? I’ll just need to determine how many new insulated curves I’ll have to make.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Insulated Track Signal Driver, Rev. 2

I am intrigued by this devise. Can it be used with older Lionel signals with 3 terminals? And will the lights flash.
Don Baird

@Don Baird posted:

I am intrigued by this devise. Can it be used with older Lionel signals with 3 terminals? And will the lights flash.

No.  It goes on when at least one wheelset on a locomotive or car is straddling the rails, in the insulated section, and off when nothing is.  As-is you could turn one of the two lamps on and off with the presence or absence of a wheelset, but it would definitely not flash, and if connected the same way the other lamp would definitely not flash alternately.

You'll need to connect it to something that flashes the lights alternately, automatically, when "on" and shuts them off when "off".

Nowadays this something is generally electronic.  Back in the day it could have been electromechanical, like an old-fashioned turn signal flasher (click-click-click), but such things didn't exist for AC-operated toy trains, only for DC-operated automobiles.

That's why in the back-in-the-day scheme of things there's only a unique Lionel contactor (AKA the 154C) for this alternately-flashing crossing signal.

Mike

Don:

There are several accessories that use three terminals.

the 151 semaphore: one common terminal, one for the lamp (always lighted, unless you wish otherwise) and one for the solenoid that drops the arm.

the 153 block signal: one common terminal, and one each for the red and green lamps.

the 154 crossing signal: one common terminal and one each for the left red lamp and the right red lamp.

The crossing guy, the switch tower and other lighted operating accessories all have three terminals and are wired essentially like the 151.

I am offering this advice so that when we talk about accessories with 3 terminals, we understand that they are not all wired (or operate) the same way.

Crossbuck signals are a unique case and indeed require a special controller to flash the lights.

Most other 3-terminal signals will work fine with the insulated Track Signal Sensor board.  It also eliminates chatter, has current inrush protection to eliminate arcing on initial contact, and finally offers DCS compatibility with a choke to eliminate DCS signal degradation.

"Most other 3-terminal signals..."

Let's not forget the 153, though. It is a special case that can be wired to emulate several different "almost" prototypical operations. Not nitpicking, or rivet counting, just offering more brain exercises to the discussion.

Dark upon approach, then green, then red, then dark.

Usually green, changes to red.

Usually red, changes to green.

Manually operated by a dispatcher's control panel.

...etc.

Older, very Old, Right of Way Industries, had target track side lights that changed colors.