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22 replies

Locomotive not responding

RG Rick GispanskiOGR Forum Member

I have a new, mint-in-the -box MTH, 4-8-4 imperial northern that I purchased some 7-8 years ago.  Yesterday, I tried to add it to my layout for my visiting Son's pleasure.  But my attempts have failed.  With the engine on the track and power applied it starts up with lights and sound then begins moving forward.  I couldn't control direction at all.  Realizing it might be a dead battery, I charged the battery for 3 hours without removal by using an old Lionel transformer with the loco on the workbench.  While on the bench I could cycle the loco through directional changes fwd/neutral/reverse.  However, with the engine back on my layout (which has an established MTH DCS system installed and functioning) the engine still starts up then begins running forward.  No bell or whistle is available either.  I tried a factory reset but it failed because I believe the engine must first be ID'd by the DCS.  Trying to add the engine to the DCS fails also.  It appears more is wrong than just direction control.  Any help is appreciated.  Thanks in advance. 

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Alan MancusAlan MancusOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Why don't you, try a conventional reset with just transformer and use 1 whistle and 5 bells, sometimes only the conventional reset will recover the board to full function, are you sure the battery is charged fully or not,?

conventional reset will work sometimes where dcs reset won't help!

after you go threw reset if it works you should hear two whistle toot's and you know the reset took ! then you can put the engine back on your dcs layout and try to add engine!

Good luck also WE NEED THE ENGINE ITEM NUMBER TO VERIFY IT IS A PS 2 ENGINE OR NOT!

Alan

G GreggOGR Forum Member

Yikes.. You can't do a command reset because you can't add the engine to the dcs remote. That leaves a conventional if you can get the engine into neutral.  Certainly try it.

 

I also  think the battery is charged enough if you can change directions but maybe try another know good battery (7 or 8 years old) ... Starting in forward is a little confusing though... I'd probably try reloading the sound file only because I have a computer  handy near the layout.... It sounds to me like this is one for the repairs guys.

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by repair technician:

Why don't you, try a conventional reset with just transformer and use 1 whistle and 5 bells, sometimes only the conventional reset will recover the board to full function, are you sure the battery is charged fully or not,?

conventional reset will work sometimes where dcs reset won't help!

after you go threw reset if it works you should hear two whistle toot's and you know the reset took ! then you can put the engine back on your dcs layout and try to add engine!

Good luck also WE NEED THE ENGINE ITEM NUMBER TO VERIFY IT IS A PS 2 ENGINE OR NOT!

Alan

 

 

 

 

First sentence he states I have a new, mint-in-the -box MTH, 4-8-4 imperial northern that I purchased some 7-8 years ago. That make it a PS2 3v

 

RG Rick GispanskiOGR Forum Member

Thank you all for your responses.  The product number for this 4-8-4 is: 30-1465-1.  I spoke with MTH and they recommended an engine reset.  So I placed the engine and tender on the bench.  I connected the Z4000. and using the bell and whistle buttons did an engine reset.  I received confirmation via two whistle toots.  I also reset the TUI.  Lastly, I again checked my other engines for functionality.  They all work fine.  My TUI is powered by the 14v output from the Z4000.  Unfortunately, the 4-8-4 is still not working.  Keep in mind that while it was on the bench, I was able to run the engine perfectly.  Forward, reverse, whistle and bell all functioned as commanded.  It is when it is on the layout that it powers up, lights and sound are ON, then it begins moving forward.  I cannot stop it with the direction button or command reverse.  I will try holding the direction button in next.

Alan MancusAlan MancusOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Hi I would put the engine on your dcs track  after you do  the following steps ,power up tiu and remote then select menu/system/track signal, then press the thumb roller on your remote/then select your engine from the pull down menu on your remote/then press thumb wheel to start your track test signal. let us know what happens and what your signal is

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alan MancusAlan MancusOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

you could remove the engine cover if you know how to do that, and then locate then ps 2 board just unplug the yellow and white connector from the motor then it can run and then due the 1 whistle and five bells with conventional reset, if you get the 2 whistle toot's power down and put the yellow and white connector back on the board near the relay, then power up again with dcs and see what happens!

Alan

G GGGOGR Forum Member

Please read what he says.  This engine is functioning fully in conventional, and he can do a conventional reset.

 

So now the issue is getting it to recognize a DCS signal.

 

Can you move your TIU over to your test track and use fixed 1 to power test track.

 

Apply voltage and see if it stays quiet and dead.  If it starts to move purely because the DCS signal is present that is a new one on me.  G

RG Rick GispanskiOGR Forum Member

First I want to thank each of you for your effort to help me.  I will try each of your suggestions tomorrow morning.  It is getting  late in the Florida panhandle. 

 

I installed a BCR2 wondering if the battery was not fully charged.  This provided no help.  Tomorrow I will set up a singular test track with DCS and try the engine on that track.  Wish me luck.

RG Rick GispanskiOGR Forum Member

Update: The Thanksgiving weekend and family visiting interrupted the ongoing forum. 

Today I installed the locomotive onto a dedicated test track isolated from the layout electronics.  I connected the test track to the TUI using Input/Output#1.  Upon powering up, the engine ran just fine, ie. lights, sound and direction.  When attempting to Add the engine to the DCS the engine could not be found.  So it appears that something is amiss with the DCS side of the engines electronics.  I plan to send the engine to the factory for repair.

 

Again thanks to everyone for their kind and thoughtful replies.

Alan MancusAlan MancusOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Hi now that you said the engine works fine I'm assuming your saying it works ok in conventional, if so now you should try a conventional reset 1 whistle and five bells while in neutral , if it resets you should hear 2 whistle toot's, to indicate it reset then it you get it reset try it again on DCS and see if it works , you might not have to send it in for repair then !

Alan 

RG Rick GispanskiOGR Forum Member

Yes, engine runs fine on the test track.  I tried engine factory reset but it never reset.  I tried about two dozen times varying button speeds but no go.  Possibly because I already reset it and have not made any changes to the format since then.  The "read" button states that it cannot find fixed #1.  A factory repair still seems the outcome.

G GreggOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Rick Gispanski:

Update: The Thanksgiving weekend and family visiting interrupted the ongoing forum. 

Today I installed the locomotive onto a dedicated test track isolated from the layout electronics.  I connected the test track to the TUI using Input/Output#1.  Upon powering up, the engine ran just fine, ie. lights, sound and direction.  When attempting to Add the engine to the DCS the engine could not be found.  So it appears that something is amiss with the DCS side of the engines electronics.  I plan to send the engine to the factory for repair.

 

Again thanks to everyone for their kind and thoughtful replies.

Yep if the engine starts up with lights and sound on your test track , it  shouldn't.   I suppose it's partially fixed if now runs in conventional.

 

 

 If the engine is dark & silent upon powering  up the test track there's hope.

 

 The Recover engine feature would be one of the first  suggestions.

Alan MancusAlan MancusOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Hi again, when you finally get it fixed let us know what the problem is, hope it's not to expensive!

? Alan

There is one other thing you can try , bring up the voltage to 10 to 12 volts and let try a conventional reset again you have to get the 1 whistle and five bells one second apart it is very critical . if you don't get the 2 toots, then I would contact GGG George as he can repair your boards and you only will need to send the ps2 boards and not the whole engine , it ill save you a lot of money. he lives in VA, Virginia just check his email and send him a email about the board repair. he is very reasonable   !

Alan

Last edited by Alan Mancus
RG Rick GispanskiOGR Forum Member

My 4-8-4 is fixed!  I have been in electronics since being drafted in 1963.  Most repairs are obvious, some are not.  This one with my 4-8-4 Northern fits the latter.  Here's what I did.  My DCS system has used the variable input/outputs on the TUI since it installation two years ago without any known problems. DCS engines ran and responded as did my conventional engines.  When speaking with a MTH rep last week he questioned my using the variable ports and informed me that fixed were better.  So, yesterday I switched to the fixed ports.  Immediately, I tripped the circuit breaker on the Z4000, 14v output which powers my TUI.  I found just connecting the neutral wire from the Z4000 to the TUI Fixed input#1 drew an arc even though the transformer levers were set to zero.  Investigation found that even though the 14v output is AC and polarity shouldn't be a factor, it is.  The grounds in the TUI for both the track power 1 & 2 channels, and the Auxiliary input are the same.  Switching the wires from the Z4000, 14v output to the TUI eliminated the short.  But now I say, what did this have to do with the Northern not running properly?  I don't know.  Placing the 4-8-4 on the layout track and applying power found the engine sitting dumb and dead (it wasn't charging forward like it did before).  Performing an "Add Engine" sequence from the remote was successful this time and found the engine energized and ready for action.  I just finished running it for over an hour without any issues.  I noticed that I had to conduct and "Add Engine" sequence for all of my other layout engines.  So what was the cause of this problem?  It must have been something to do with this engine not liking the variable outputs and becoming tripped up with commands when first powering up.  Remember, I performed a factory reset to the engine earlier without any improvement.  I do not believe the crossed AC wires to the TUI Aux. input was the cause.  I just don't know.  Maybe someone more experienced with DCS could understand the problem and the fix.  I'm happy the engine is now running and I am enjoying its operation.  I will now happily cancel a Return Authorization to the nearest MTH repair facility - it is not longer needed.  Yea!

Thanks to all of you railroaders who stuck with me and my problem.  You are a great inspiration.  I welcomed each input and tried them all.  Thank you very much.

Barry BroskowitzBarry BroskowitzOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER

Rick,

 Investigation found that even though the 14v output is AC and polarity shouldn't be a factor, it is.  The grounds in the TUI for both the track power 1 & 2 channels, and the Auxiliary input are the same.

Actually, the short is in the Z4000, not the TIU. Using a separate, dedicated power supply for the TIU as opposed to using the Z4000 (any of its outputs) has no effect on anything. The only time there's a short involving the Aux. Power port is when there's a Common connection between the sources of power, and a pair of wires is reversed.

From page 96 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition:

A third source of power for the TIU's Aux. Power port is the 14 volt output of an MTH Z4000 transformer using an appropriate barrel connector. It should be noted that if the Z4000's 14 volt output is used, it should be used solely for this purpose and not used to power any other device.

Although the polarity of the power source for the Aux. Power port is typically not a concern, there are two caveats in that regard that are noteworthy:

• If the Z4000’s 14 volt output is used to power the TIU via the TIU's Aux. Power port, polarity is important and must be correctly observed. If polarity is reversed, and one or both of the Z4000's handles are used to power the TIU's channels, a short circuit through the Z4000 can result

• If a brick-type transformer is used to power the TIU via the TIU's Aux. Power port and the non-accessory output of the brick is being used for other purposes, including powering a TIU channel or powering switch tracks that use non-derailing mechanisms, polarity is important and must be correctly observed. Otherwise, a short circuit through the brick-type transformer can result.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
G GreggOGR Forum Member

I'm surprised anything  worked with  the dead short.... The center pin on the tiu's  aux power port is common to the black post on TIU fixed 1.     (just the opposite  of  what one might think)  Anyway  Glad to hear the issue is resolved... I know you had another thread going with some type  of   tiu problem.... Hopefully that  problem has  cleared up as well.

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