Lowering Lionel F3s

That looks like a non-powered B-unit, will the same process work for the powered A units?

 

LOS,

 

Good morning to you sir!

 

I haven't opened up the powered A & B yet, but judging by the parts diagram (below), I believe it is!

 

 

 

Thanks!

- Mario

 

PS - Your YouTube videos started all this!

Sam, here is the post on using a simple M3 lock washer, I got mine at ACE, to lower the Lionel F unit frames and shells.

 

Thanks,

Mario

The F3 that you lowered... was it the older TMCC or Legacy?

I ask because I have the older TMCC F3s which are a decent ride height although still high...

And I have the TMCC F7s which are VERY high and unacceptable.

Doug,

 

The Tmcc F7s have to be lowered about an eighth inch to solid mount the pilot and have everything look right .My first B unit I just cut the mounting tabs of the shell which requires the doors to be modified and non working. I think I did a tutorial on it.

 

I've looked at modifying the truck rings and I think they will have to be cut or ground and new center section attached. Haven' gotten back to the Fs due to the Alcos and now the steamer ERR installs. Sometime soon though.

 

Ron

Ok thats what I thought. The F7s are like the E7s which I had to grind down the truck and cut the shell mounting post to lower it the 1/8"+ I needed to. The doors don't open after that mod. The F3 is much easier as it needs a lot less lowering.

Doug,

 

The F3 s he references are a completely different truck mounting system. For ours I'm going to fab a whole new mounting plate out of brass sheet.

 

Ron

Ron,

 

That's sounds awesome, we can't wait to see it. I did see your post on the F7s and "fixing" the doors, and that was great!

 

Is there something I can do to help?

 

Thanks,

Mario

Ok, so after someone's email, I had to go and open up my NYC F3s and investigate if my aforementioned technique would work, and it did!

 

All I had to do is:

 

1. Remove the screws from the truck retaining ring
2. Drop the truck
3. Remove the steps from the truck (replace the removed screws with a 3mm flat machine screw instead of the removed pan head)
4. Re-insert the truck
5. Slide the lock washer in under the retaining ring
6. Re-insert the 3mm pan head screws

 

And voila! A lowered Lionel TMCC NYC F3, that now matches the height of Atlas F2... Here's some pics of it nose-to-nose with the Atlas, and back to back with the already lowered Lionel F3 B unit.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Mario

OK, so I did it your way with this F3 Dummy B unit. I used lock washers like you suggested, but double them up because I didn't have the same thickness as what you used. It dropped it a little bit more, and that's about as far as I can go with out clearance issues.

 

Also frame mounted the steps that were removed from the trucks. Actually it's a different step, but looks much better. The buffer plate under the diaphragm needs some modification as it won't allow the unit's to turn because those buffers are rigid. I'll either cut them back shorter, or remove them all together.

 

 

 

If you look at the buffer under the diaphragm, you can see how much lower it is, and the gap caused by the truck mounted step is gone as well.

Looks great! "Someone" did a good job! ��

Did you just use a second set of rear steps? They look better than mine, which are short.

I did have to cut back the buffer; remove, trim, and reinstall.

I still need to cut down the P&D Hobbies passenger pilot like John Sethian did, I just haven't figured out how to do it so the cut is straight.

Any ideas?

Yes I used another set of rear steps and just cut them off past the mounting hole. I had some in my parts box from an old project. Like you said, the steps that are truck mounted are too short for body mounts, but they will do in a pinch.

Havent decided what to do about the A unit front pilot. Maybe a P&D, maybe just use the factory Lionel pilot.

I would use my bench top sander to sand that pilot down. Thats how I got rid of the foot boards on my Legacy GP30's... 60 grit belt for the heavy duty work knocked that diecast right down. Leveling was done with an 100 grit belt.

Or a Dremel and a pair of scissors!

 

 

 

Thanks!

- Mario

By lowering the A unit bodies with washers, it dropped it right down on top of the pilot. No spacer needed between the body and the pilot. It does need a .040" spacer between the frame and pilots when it's mounted, just because the frame is recessed that much in the shell as you stated earlier. Body mounted steps, and a custom coupler mount for the rear of this thing and it will be time for paint touch ups and the rails.

 

This is the trailing unit, 19C, so I left the coupler stick out a little further than it should so there's more clearance when coupled to its train. The leader, 19L, will get it's coupler set back in further for better appearance.

 

The interior was painted tan because Lionel had it painted red from in factory. Cab lights were removed because I hate running with the lights on inside, and the smoke unit was modified and rebuilt with new batting. Still need to add all the correct length MU hoses to the rear of all the units because Lionel included the stubbies with this set. They are in the trash now.  

LOS,

 

Looks fantastic... absolutely amazing!

 

I finished the 2nd revision for the bracket for the P&D Hobbies passenger pilot; so we'll see how they fit tonight, once the wife and kid are asleep.

 

 

 

I'm printing you the rear coupler mounts and buffer assemblies tonight, show hopefully they'll be in the mail to you soon!

 

 

Wish you could fix my pilot, and I could install your coupler mounts... fair trade, I think.

 

Thanks,

Mario

In a comparison photo of the before and after....

 

The thing that is smackin me in the face is that silver frame around the windows... that HAS GOTTA GO! Not sure how I'm gonna get rid of that ????????

LOS, I cannot believe how nice they are. The pilots are great and they sit perfect!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... I finished the P&D Passenger pilot for my F3.



I out it next to the Atlas to see how well it matched. I think it's **** near perfect, but who am I to judge?

Thanks,
Mario

Well until you started this thread I was gonna sell my ABBA set because I didn't like the way they looked....... now they are definitely keepers. I'm actually glad to keep these because I bought them 10 years ago, and it was my 1st purchase of Lionel as an adult. This set got me back into the hobby.

 

Lowered with body mounted steps. 

 

 

The 3-D printed coupler conversion makes this job a snap. The buffer below the diaphragm had to be shortened so the diaphragm would compress. The stubby MU hoses were replaced with full length versions. All painted silver as Santa Fe practice.

 

 

Crew figures were removed from the rear unit and all lights unplugged as this 19C will be the trailing unit in this consist always. The silver "gasket" was removed from the windshield.

 

 

Thanks Mario, this project wasn't even on the list until you started this  

Wow that looks good man!! you guys are killin' it!

Thanks Norm. Lowering and close coupling is night and day with these units. 

 

LOS,

Your units look amazing, you've done a fantastic job.

This combination, that you and I have discovered, have turned these units into a scale piece that I would put up against any Atlas or 3rd Rail unit, and totally blows MTH off the map.

The Lionel unit specific Railsounds alone are step above the others. I just hope this makes others make the jump.

Thanks,
Mario

In case anyone is keeping track, this same principle can be used to lower the Legacy Sharknose units, as you can see over in the 3RS forum, started by Norm.

Mine are apart as this is posted and should be good to go. You can't lower them as far as the F3s, but enough to do what LOS did and just fix the pilot without a spacer.

Keep checking back for more updates.

Thanks,
Mario

Lowering the frames creates a small problem for the rear motor as the roof panel tabs sit right down on top of the flywheel, preventing the rear motor from spinning at all.

 

Nothing the Dremel tool didn't fix real quick.

 

 

On the A units, the front motor is shorter, but the plastic bracket that sits on top of the cab interior holding the interior lights has to be removed. It won't fit under the shell now that's its so low. I took the interior lights and ran them onto the floor of the cab interior. They got a drop of glue just to hold them in place.

 

Also the roof fans are held in by pins, bent over inside the shell. I had to cut some of those off to get the smoke unit to sit flush against the shell roof. I thought about removing the smoke unit because of the weathering I am going to do....but I'll just turn it off I guess.

The 3-D printed coupler mounting brackets on both ends of the B units, and the rear of the A units.

 

The outer screws hold the coupler to the mounting pad/spacer. The center screw goes all the way through the frame to eliminate the flex of the entire assembly. You could just run the 2 outer screws all the way through the frame and it would do the same thing. The sides of the draft gear box were also ground out to allow maximum swing for the coupler.

 

The buffer plate had to be cut back or sanded down to the depth of the compressed diaphragms. Otherwise the diaphrams would not compress, causing derailments even on 072 curves. In order to keep them on the rails through the curves coupled this tight, you have to have diaphragms that compress, and maximum swing in the coupler box.

 

and the fixed pilot... I just ran the coupler moutning screws all the way into the frame.

 

Did you waste your time trying MTH for those pilots?

Good question... And no.

They're not for me, but for a friend that saw my work and wants to do the same to their poor excuse for a pilot on the their brand new FTs. 

He called and wrote MTH a at least three times each, and doesn't know if they have them, as they've nevet rwached out back to them.

Meanwhile, I already have the Legacy Railsounds board for my sharks back from Lionel and it was a week today that they got them. I didn't even pay for it yet, and they sent it to me anyway. I called and paid when I got it.

That's why I don't buy MTH. Well, one of the reasons. They're not for me.

Thanks,
Mario