Lowering Lionel F3s

As an addendum, I’m trying to lower a 1997 F3 A-B, and the process was similar, but a few differences.  I couldn’t find anything on this site for this version so here it goes…

Once getting the pilot off the trucks, I ground away all the frame supports as well as the tops of the “pins” for the truck detail.   I also enlarged the back hole.

once everything was assembled the two screws that hold the light assembly were in the way, so I just CA glued the light assembly onto its posts

I have some very thin kadee coupler washers that  I’m going to put on the pilot to keep the trucks turning smoothly and also raised the motor with two 4mm washers (~2.1mm thickness) CA glued in place

very easy to do and I think it esthetically made a huge difference without that gap between the body and frame and getting the scale height of the overall loco spot on (3.5”)

thx for all the previous helpful comments on this thread!

@vacuefactor posted:

As an addendum, I’m trying to lower a 1997 F3 A-B, and the process was similar, but a few differences.  I couldn’t find anything on this site for this version so here it goes…

Once getting the pilot off the trucks, I ground away all the frame supports as well as the tops of the “pins” for the truck detail.   I also enlarged the back hole.

once everything was assembled the two screws that hold the light assembly were in the way, so I just CA glued the light assembly onto its posts

I have some very thin kadee coupler washers that  I’m going to put on the pilot to keep the trucks turning smoothly and also raised the motor with two 4mm washers (~2.1mm thickness) CA glued in place

very easy to do and I think it esthetically made a huge difference without that gap between the body and frame and getting the scale height of the overall loco spot on (3.5”)

thx for all the previous helpful comments on this thread!

Nice job!

Mario…thank for the thumbs up!  

one thing I’m now noticing is that something still looks “off” even though the overall loco scale height is correct….and that’s the fuel tank.  

the bottom, even with the lowered frame, is roughly 4mm too high off the tracks vs the scaled emd blueprint height…which makes the loco still look “high” to my eye.    

Going to see if I can design and print something to help correct that…unless you’ve come across another idea already?

also, I couldn’t find a dimension (scale or actual) for the height of the leading edge of the pilot from the rail (this is a freight F3 if that means anything)  do you know what that might be?

@vacuefactor posted:

Mario…thank for the thumbs up!  

one thing I’m now noticing is that something still looks “off” even though the overall loco scale height is correct….and that’s the fuel tank.  

the bottom, even with the lowered frame, is roughly 4mm too high off the tracks vs the scaled emd blueprint height…which makes the loco still look “high” to my eye.    

Going to see if I can design and print something to help correct that…unless you’ve come across another idea already?

also, I couldn’t find a dimension (scale or actual) for the height of the leading edge of the pilot from the rail (this is a freight F3 if that means anything)  do you know what that might be?

Well... I do have a thread on lowering the Atlas F unit fuel tanks, here: https://ogrforum.com/topic/40004360285616739

I don't think it'll help us on this side, but it may give you something to shoot for as far as height off the rail.  As for the pilot, I use a Kadee coupler height gauge to measure the pilot off the rail...  the little shelf on the front is meant for trip pin adjustment, but I use the lower one for pilot height off the rail.

Thanks!

- Mario

Awesome.  Thx for that link.  I wish it were that easy for the lionel tanks…but they are one piece with the base frame.

i designed a “cap” that I think will work as a blend in and it will visually lower the base of the tank 4mm.    

Hope to print it out and test install it this weekend.  I’ll add pics and a link to the STL file onto the fuel tank thread if it goes ok!  

sorry…I mistyped.  I have the kadee gauge for the coupler.   I was trying to figure out the distance between the rail and the leading edge of the whole assembly.

@vacuefactor, that is fantastic!  There are decades' worth of F units that could use what you've designed!

Excellent work!

Thanks,

- Mario

@CentralFan1976 posted:

@vacuefactor, that is fantastic!  There are decades' worth of F units that could use what you've designed!

Excellent work!

Thanks,

- Mario

Thanks Mario!   Appreciate all the work you’ve done in this arena too!  

I have 4 other F3 sets…and it’s really hard to “unsee” all the inaccuracies in scale now that I know they exist…and can be fixed

anyone that wants the parts for their own models just have them get in touch…pilot conversion wasn’t hard but there’s a few nuances in installation to make it blend and not look like a fly by night patch job.

@vacuefactor posted:

Thanks Mario!   Appreciate all the work you’ve done in this arena too!  

I have 4 other F3 sets…and it’s really hard to “unsee” all the inaccuracies in scale now that I know they exist…and can be fixed

Tell me about it!  I even filled the gaps in the nose door with black epoxy so light doesn't leak through!

@CentralFan1976 posted:

Tell me about it!  I even filled the gaps in the nose door with black epoxy so light doesn't leak through!

Wow. That pilot detail is great.  Passenger F3?    Trying to figure out when to put a coupler lift bar / air /brake / MU lines vs the pilot door.  

yes the small things make the biggest difference.  Nice when others appreciate it!

@vacuefactor posted:

Wow. That pilot detail is great.  Passenger F3?    Trying to figure out when to put a coupler lift bar / air /brake / MU lines vs the pilot door.  

yes the small things make the biggest difference.  Nice when others appreciate it!

There were a lot of detail changes on the NYC through its order history...  First, the FTs and F2s were delivered with freight pilots, and then starting with 1606, the F3s and first orders of F7s were delivered with passenger pilots, although they were not used for passenger service. 

The passenger pilots had the coupler cut bars behind the pilot, but the levers were on the side of the pilots, just below the "F"...

AFter a while, the doors were removed and the passenger pilots were left open, like your pilot.

L-to-R; F2s, F3s, F7s...

Be careful; it's a slippery slope!

Very nice array showing the differences.  Beautiful work!  

Since the one I’m doing is a freelance loco, I’m not tied to history except for the history I make up

however, my layout will be set in 1958, so I’m guessing the short line railroad will have likely purchased / got a deal on an older mid-40s f-unit (to stay in budget of course)…and am anticipating the pilot to look like the one on your F2 when done.  

the fuel tank “cap” I made for the lionel locos came out well too.  Should have it painted this week and will post it when done.

Well, to round out the thread, here's the fuel tank drop....

Wanted to lower the fuel tank 4mm to have it be in scale and eliminate the "highwater" look, but, unfortunately, the Lionel tank/frame are one solid assembly so I couldn't modify it easily like with adding the spacer you did for the Atlas unit.

"Before" and "after" tank heights in the pics below!

That is awesome!

An "updated" video, from two years ago...

Nice video and collection there .  Where is “da club”.  Would love to see a video of those bad boys running all together!

@vacuefactor posted:

Nice video and collection there .  Where is “da club”.  Would love to see a video of those bad boys running all together!

This is the CNY NRHS in Syracuse;  We're actually taking the layout down in preparation for setting it up at The Great NYS Train Fair, the first weekend in November.

Thanks!

- Mario

Although I could print these parts to lower the engine parts. my track is not that level and the inclines are way too steep.

I understand the true-scale desire, but making these changes,  would not allow my engines to run on my layout.

@AlanRail posted:

Although I could print these parts to lower the engine parts. my track is not that level and the inclines are way too steep.

I understand the true-scale desire, but making these changes,  would not allow my engines to run on my layout.

I understand. I can’t run these at home, either. Only at the club.  

oh well.

NOT SAYING  you should not try for the best possible scale designs.

Because in doing this you raise the level of awareness of "whatspossible" in scale for all of us and maybe LIONEL or others gets the message!

@vacuefactor posted:

Update....rear end of A unit conversion.

Mario...your bracket would have worked for the Kadee, but there was no way to also get a scale diaphragm in place too...so...

Had to completely "gut" the rear of the loco with both from the frame and body.

After designing, printing, and modifying several versions of the conversion bracket, I'm pretty happy with the final result    

Fortunately it will hold for the modification of the rear of the stock Lionel F3 A-unit and both sides of the B-unit.

I decided to add underframe piping to "hook up" to the P&D air line castings, and installed a magnet into the glad hand for eventual linking to the B-unit's line.

Have a few thoughts for creating linked MU lines, but that's for another day!

For now, though, I'm calling it a night.

At this point, the scale height conversion of the frame, pilot, rear end, and fuel tank is finally complete.

Comments, thoughts, or questions are definitely welcome!

That is a dramatic improvement, and extremely well engineered; congrats on the work that you've done!

Thanks!

- Mario

Thanks so much….appreciate your inspiration and thoughts!  

onto the next part…..

I dug out the 1606 to finish mounting the ladders…

thanks!

- Mario