Does anyone know if Lionel’s Magnetraction works with Gargraves Phantom track with the stainless steel outer rails?
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nope
I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
There are magnetic grades of stainless alloy. But in general it isn't magnetic.
If you're building outdoors, it's strengths outweigh the weaknesses for some folk.
in the specific case of the Gargraves track, the answer seems to be no, it is not magnetic. the most common stainless steels contain Nickel and are not magnetic, however there are types with higher Chromium and little or no Nickel that are magnetic. The only common example I can think of are stainless steel kitchen knives. So, the track isn't magnetic, but stainless steel can be. it just depends on the intended application, and how much you want to pay for it.
Hot Water posted:Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
https://www.scientificamerican...ont-magnets-work-on/
Due to this difference, ferritic stainless steels are generally magnetic while austenitic stainless steels usually are not. ... Alloying the stainless steel with elements such as nickel, manganese, carbon and nitrogen increases the likelihood that the alloy will possess the fcc crystal structure at room temperature
Popular ferritic stainless steels are iron-chromium binary alloys with 13 to 18 percent chromium. These alloys are ferromagnetic at room temperature.
Is there a reason that you need the stainless steel?
Hot Water posted:clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
Wrong again, Luke Warm Water. Some stainless steels are magnetic. And the strength of their magnetism can vary, depending on the percentages of their alloying elements.
Based on clem k's statement, I would assume he had some stainless steel track that was "slightly" magnetic, of which I have no doubt that it was. Just no where near as strong as tin track would be.
WBC posted:Hot Water posted:Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
https://www.scientificamerican...ont-magnets-work-on/
Due to this difference, ferritic stainless steels are generally magnetic while austenitic stainless steels usually are not. ... Alloying the stainless steel with elements such as nickel, manganese, carbon and nitrogen increases the likelihood that the alloy will possess the fcc crystal structure at room temperature
Popular ferritic stainless steels are iron-chromium binary alloys with 13 to 18 percent chromium. These alloys are ferromagnetic at room temperature.
WBC, thanks for the memory jolt. I haven't seen "fcc crystal" since the 1960's when I worked in an analytical metallurgical lab.(face centered cubic)
Steve
Then why doesn't magnetraction work with Gargraves stainless track?? Because it's not magnetic.
When selling scrap metals at the local scrapyard how do they determine stainless steel?? With a magnet! 
Casey Jones2 posted:Then why doesn't magnetraction work with Gargraves stainless track?? Because it's not magnetic.
When selling scrap metals at the local scrapyard how do they determine stainless steel?? With a magnet!
This reply really confuses me since others have already provided the information in this thread as well as provided links explaining that stainless can be either. As previously explained by several folks, it depends on the Nickel content of the stainless. Common, cheap varieties like 304 or 316 have high levels of Nickel that restructure the metal in a way to be non-feric where as there are types with very little or no nickel that are. It's not really a difficult concept once you look it up.
I think it’s hilarious that a simple question from the poster turns into a debate on metallurgy! The simple answer is no. Been there done that! I’m certain that Mike at Gargraves isn’t searching the globe for that special alloy to get magnatraction and SS Gargraves to work together. It’s probably cost prohibitive as well.
Apparently my first response was unclear. Let me rephrase: NO
DMASSO posted:Is there a reason that you need the stainless steel?
Don,
I’m building a 24 x20 layout in my basement and was thinking that the stainless steel track would be better from a rust standpoint. I also know that some compositions of SS are magnetic to some degree, I just didn’t know if the gargraves track was.
Thanks,
Bob
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| Steels and other iron–carbon alloy phases |
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| Microstructures |
| Classes |
| Other iron-based materials |
In metallurgy, stainless steel,[1][2] also known as inox steel or inox from French inoxydable (inoxidizable), is a steel alloy, with highest percentage contents of iron, chromium, and nickel, with a minimum of 10.5% chromium content by mass and a maximum of 1.2% carbon by mass.[3][4]
Stainless steels are most notable for their corrosion resistance, which increases with increasing chromium content. Additions of molybdenum increase corrosion resistance in reducing acids and against pitting attack in chloride solutions. Thus, there are numerous grades of stainless steel with varying chromium and molybdenum contents to suit the environment the alloy must endure. Stainless steel's resistance to corrosion and staining, low maintenance, and familiar luster make it an ideal material for many applications where both the strength of steel and corrosion resistance are required.
Stainless steels are rolled into sheets, plates, bars, wire, and tubing to be used in: cookware, cutlery, surgical instruments, major appliances; construction material in large buildings, such as the Chrysler Building; industrial equipment (for example, in paper mills, chemical plants, water treatment); and storage tanks and tankers for chemicals and food products (for example, chemical tankers and road tankers). Stainless steel's corrosion resistance, the ease with which it can be steam cleaned and sterilized, and no need for surface coatings has also influenced its use in commercial kitchens and food processing plants.
Bob, I have Gargraves in my basement and at the club. Just a spot of rust once in a while and it is 20 years old.
Bill DeBrooke posted:Apparently my first response was unclear. Let me rephrase: NO
No, your response was very clear and it should have ended there!
clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Like traditional Lionel/Marx/AF track, GG non-stainless track is steel, not "tin". It is literally "tin plated" (ah...ha!) to reduce rusting for a while and to make soldering easier. Solder is often made partly of tin.
Tin is a not-cheap metal that inhibits rust - hence, "tin cans". The cans are steel, but the plating is (was?) tin. These cans (and certain toys) gave tin a bad name. It is not "cheap", though what it is used to protect may well be (the can for your beans).
NYC Z-MAN posted:Bill DeBrooke posted:Apparently my first response was unclear. Let me rephrase: NO
No, your response was very clear and it should have ended there!
No, it should not have. Some of us have more curious minds than others, I suppose. This thread has been an interesting one. The original question/answer, while worthy, wasn't exactly stimulating.
WOW!!!!!!!
Hot Water posted:clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
Stainless steel Gargraves track is magnetic. Lionel magna traction is just not strong enough on Gargraves stainless steel track.
The photo below shows a super magnet sticking to stainless steel Gargraves track witch is marked at factory with silver tie at one end.
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NYC Z-MAN posted:Bill DeBrooke posted:Apparently my first response was unclear. Let me rephrase: NO
No, your response was very clear and it should have ended there!
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clem k posted:Hot Water posted:clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
Stainless steel Gargraves track is magnetic. Lionel magna traction is just not strong enough on Gargraves stainless steel track.
The photo below shows a super magnet sticking to stainless steel Gargraves track witch is marked at factory with silver tie at one end.
So,,,,,,,,,your saying that if Lionel models that had "magna traction" were properly equipped with "super magnets", then everything would work fine on Gargraves stainless steel track?
304 stainless is magnetic, 316 is not.
Hot Water posted:clem k posted:Hot Water posted:clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
Stainless steel Gargraves track is magnetic. Lionel magna traction is just not strong enough on Gargraves stainless steel track.
The photo below shows a super magnet sticking to stainless steel Gargraves track witch is marked at factory with silver tie at one end.
So,,,,,,,,,your saying that if Lionel models that had "magna traction" were properly equipped with "super magnets", then everything would work fine on Gargraves stainless steel track?
I don't know what do you think ?
Hot Water posted:clem k posted:Hot Water posted:clem k posted:I did some tests with that years ago. stainless steel does not work nearly as well as tin.
Probably because stainless steel is NOT magnetic.
Stainless steel Gargraves track is magnetic. Lionel magna traction is just not strong enough on Gargraves stainless steel track.
The photo below shows a super magnet sticking to stainless steel Gargraves track witch is marked at factory with silver tie at one end.
So,,,,,,,,,your saying that if Lionel models that had "magna traction" were properly equipped with "super magnets", then everything would work fine on Gargraves stainless steel track?
Clem ain't saying anything like that, Einstein. For demonstration purposes, a regular magnet probably wouldn't stick that good to GG SS track, whereas a super magnet undoubtedly would. Either that, or maybe a super magnet was all he had laying around right at the moment.
What Clem is REALLY saying, you evidently don't know near as much as you profess to know. If your lack of knowledge in this hobby causes you this much grief, perhaps it's time to think about giving up trains and switching to a different hobby. 
Mixed Freight posted:What Clem is REALLY saying, you evidently don't know near as much as you profess to know. If your lack of knowledge in this hobby causes you this much grief, perhaps it's time to think about giving up trains and switching to a different hobby.
In fact, that is EXACTLY what I have done, i.e. dismantled the entire layout and had Stout Auctions sell EVERYTHING! After more than 65 years of model railroading, I am no longer able to deal with the constant/continuing electronics "issues". Thus EVERYTHING is gone. New hobby,,,,,,,,,,,shooting at the local indoor pistol range.
Hot Water posted:Mixed Freight posted:What Clem is REALLY saying, you evidently don't know near as much as you profess to know. If your lack of knowledge in this hobby causes you this much grief, perhaps it's time to think about giving up trains and switching to a different hobby.
In fact, that is EXACTLY what I have done, i.e. dismantled the entire layout and had Stout Auctions sell EVERYTHING! After more than 65 years of model railroading, I am no longer able to deal with the constant/continuing electronics "issues". Thus EVERYTHING is gone. New hobby,,,,,,,,,,,shooting at the local indoor pistol range.
Well, good deal! I'm happy to hear that. No sense in a guy strokin' out over his current hobby. I've had to change hobbies a few times myself over the course of my life. Sometimes it can be hard to let one go, but once you get rolling in a new hobby, the new relaxation factor will make up for it. You should be able to find a great forum for indoor pistol shooting. Good luck and have fun! 
Bill DeBrooke posted:nope
Yup.
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