I remember taking pics of a steamer parked next to the Cheyenne train station when Amtrak used to stop there. Never thought of looking at the number. Until later. It was 3985. First time it was in Houston, I told Steve Lee about seeing her cold, and thanked him and the team for getting her back in steam.
Robert K posted:What happened to Steve Lee? He retired?
Yes.
Was he a better steam head than Ed?
Yes, Much better, and a far better Engineer.
But, Ed pulled off the Big Boy.
With unlimited funds, ANYONE could have restore/rebuilt a 4000!
Also, did UP operate more excursions for the public in the past?
Yes, when there were many more sponsoring organizations to contract for such excursions.
And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.
Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.
They’re restricted to a few miles of track in Portland, OR for holiday train rides and such.
Well, 4449 WAS out on the BNSF main line in 2018, for the filming of an iMax movie, with a portion of the BNSF business car train, WITHOUT any diesel in the consist either!
According to world of gossip on the net. Another website forum, from a UP employee says.
Once the 4014 completes the scheduled tour, the whole steam program in shut down. It's not making revenue.
toddstrick posted:According to world of gossip on the net. Another website forum, from a UP employee says.
Once the 4014 completes the scheduled tour, the whole steam program in shut down. It's not making revenue.
That's just silly! The UP "steam program" has never, and I mean NEVER "made revenue", as it is an advertising & public relations program.
I never cared for the restoration of 4014. The 3985 was a heck of a lot better fit for excursion service, I think. A great locomotive, probably one of the "best in the west" She deserves a lot better.
Ed Mullan
Ed Mullan posted:I never cared for the restoration of 4014.
Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you. 
breezinup posted:Ed Mullan posted:I never cared for the restoration of 4014.
Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.
I agree with Ed.
Sure, the BB is a big, noisy chooch, but there are other existing steam locomotives I prefer over it. And maybe a couple of diesels, too.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:breezinup posted:Ed Mullan posted:I never cared for the restoration of 4014.
Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.
I agree with Ed.
Sure, the BB is a big, noisy chooch, but there are other existing steam locomotives I prefer over it. And maybe a couple of diesels, too.
Rusty
Pluss,,,,,,,,the Challenger class Locomotives were also NOT restricted to 50/55 MPH, as the 4000 class locomotives were/are. Thus, 4014 rarely runs faster than 45/50MPH!
I remember on another thread about the BB how I speculated her being hauled around for show with diesels doing the work and told basically I was crazy. I have been rather reserved but quite frankly, I have no respect for Ed or what he has "accomplished". Had the steam program been managed more responsibly without the ridiculous expenditure for the restore of 4014, I could see it surviving. However I believe all the publicity and expenditure on the 4014 could have actually sounded the death knell. Many times blind ambition and arrogance do this. Shame on Ed and shame on the people who approved this.
While the steam program was never a revenue stream, it didn't burn through money like it has recently either.
3985 is definitely more well liked than 4014 by more than 2 or 3 and most people flocking to 4014 don't know the difference anyway. It was all in how it was publicized.
3985 is certainly the better looking loco and more versatile than 4014 and 844.
The UP didn't do the 4014 project to create a revenue stream, nor was the decision to do it based on versatility, we are talking steam engines used for purely PR purposes. They aren't going to put them into freight service or use them for revenue carrying anything. The 4014 project happened because for better or worse the Big Boy engines have a mystique around them, people hear it was the largest steam engine ever made and their is an immediate "wow" factor (and yeah, I have heard the arguments that its tractive effort was nowhere near what was claimed, that other engines delivered more where it counted, etc and I won't argue it/can't; but it doesn't matter, in popular perception it is 'the biggest of all time').
As far as what the UP spent on the restoration or whether it is bleeding "tons of money", does anyone have an inside source? The UP knew when they took on this project it wouldn't make money, and if internet rumors are claiming the whole program will be shut down because it is losing money, take it from me, the people who spread that rumor don't understand what the program is about, goodwill/PR efforts are not measured like that. I suspect whatever they spent on the 4014 project or the entire steam program is hidden somewhere in their public reports under capital spending or reported under "goodwill" value , I doubt anyone would be able to tie specific spending to the steam program unless they work internally, it will be hidden in public filings like the 10k). If UP shuts down the steam program, it won't be because of the 4014 costing too much, likely it would be shut down whether 3985 was running or 4014, if they cancel the project it will be because they feel they get too little back in terms of goodwill and publicity to spend that kind of money, or a hedge fund/activist investor decides that such "foolishness" (cleaned up for this forum) isn't good for shareholder management, or the company really is in bad enough shape that they need to cut ever nickle and dime they can. Whatever you think of Ed Dickens, he wasn't responsible for 3985 getting put in mothballs or 4014 being rebuilt, he very well probably supported it, but I can bet you the higher level suits were all gung ho for it ,too, otherwise it wouldn't happen, he didn't wake up one day and say "let's go get us a big boy and restore it".
Now talking as myself, I am kind of happy that something like 4014 can happen (and though I haven't seen it live, from what I have seen it sure looked like it was running on its own), that in this day and age of hedge funds and private equity funds and activist investors and shareholders over all, that there is still room for a little magic in the world, something seemingly 'useless', something goofy,"not practical". Funny thing about goofball projects like the 4014, you never know what they will inspire going down the road, the thrill of steam engines (to me) is the old in me leaps the wonder of the boy, and historically I can tell you a lot of great ideas came about because someone wasn't afraid to harness that kind of wonder and joy, and yes, they were often told by their 'elders' or 'superiors' that they were wasting their time doing what they were *shrug*. All I can do is hope that going down the road UP continues their steam program, and that maybe with the 3985 they will either find a way to utilize it, or donate it to a group that could bring it back to the living.
RIP 3985. Bob Krieger and the restoration crew … what a cool story! Wish I could have been a part of that. Hope 3985 has a wonderful resting spot.
Union Pacific execs wanted the "Big Boy." That's what they got. And, it is an international sensation. Maybe all the interest generated by it will trickle down and benefit small/struggling steam programs.
Anyway … hope 2020 is a great year for UP steam. Fix up any little problems from 4014 being rushed out last year. Kinda hard to believe, in today's environment ... UP has two big-a** steam engines running. 
breezinup posted:Ed Mullan posted:I never cared for the restoration of 4014.
Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.
And I would be one of them...
Other steam engines in U.P's Cheyenne roundhouse keeping 3985 company include No. 838 (another Northern, some parts of which have been used on 844), and No. 5511.
I just saw some pictures posted of a line of PRR T1s (at least 6) on a siding waiting for scrapping. The main rods were cut! (the ones from the pistons). I can't help but think of the loss and how people here would respond to the pictures.
These engines are just mainly metal parts and companies will do what they want. I'm thinking if 4014 wrecks some rails or switches, or whatever, it will get absorbed and hidden into the running costs. The company decided to activate a Bigboy and that has many positives. They wasted a good, well loved Challenger and that was their choice too. It went for the greater good of the chosen direction.
There are 2 main points here on this forum that keep reoccurring. One is what the company has done wrong (in the poster's comments). The other is just what's done. I'd say right, but I'd reserve future judgement. We have people here who are/were part of actual steam programs and know much more of what really happened.
I think we should all go along for the ride and try to enjoy the positives. We can't change the minds of anyone in charge and what's already been a committed direction. I worked for a place that would fire anyone on the floor for making a mistake and yet stand behind countless management errors. I've seen this too many times. I watched plants close and companies fold. I don't wish that on anyone else. I hope the positives outweigh any mistakes here.
I think looking back someday in the future, someone might see this as foolish hearted mistakes or just simply, bragging rights.
Ed Mullan posted:….The 3985 was a heck of a lot better fit for excursion service, I think. A great locomotive, probably one of the "best in the west" She deserves a lot better.
Ed Mullan
BTW, I like this comment. It's what made me post my comments.
GG1 4877 posted:Never say never when it comes to large steam. Managers change, corporate officers change. Look at N&W 611. Who would have thought it would have run again after NS disabled the 1218 and shut down their steam program in the early 90's?
The previous UP CEO, or the one before him … had the hankering to have all three engines running.
As Jonathan said … never say never. (Especially when it comes to CEOs and their toys)
breezinup posted:Other steam engines in U.P's Cheyenne roundhouse keeping 3985 company include No. 838 (another Northern, some parts of which have been used on 844), and No. 5511.
I can understand keeping the 838 as a parts donor, but I can't help but wonder what the rational was for keeping the 5511? It certainly would be too slow for any kind of excursion service.
Rusty
Rich Melvin posted:breezinup posted:Ed Mullan posted:I never cared for the restoration of 4014.
Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.
And I would be one of them...
No.
OK. 3 or 4 other people.
It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy, except for Jack's mentioning of higher speeds with 3985.
Here's something you rarely hear about these days, what appears to be one of 3985's test runs once she got running.
p51 posted:It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy, except for Jack's mentioning of higher speeds with 3985.
Here's something you rarely hear about these days, what appears to be one of 3985's test runs once she got running.
That's from 2008, more than 25 years from "once she got running", i.e. she was returned to service in 1981, in time for the grand opening of the California State Railroad Museum.
Rich Melvin posted:breezinup posted:Ed Mullan posted:I never cared for the restoration of 4014.
Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.
And I would be one of them...
It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past.
Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings.
It is a case of survival of the fittest when you are playing with big toys like these and can we afford not to restore engines just because of individual feelings?
Hot Water posted:Robert K posted:And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.
Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.
So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?
p51 posted:It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy,
As the song goes: Different strokes for different folks...
Some of us prefer even smaller, cuddlier steam locomotives.
Rusty
Ukaflyer posted:It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past.
Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings.
The VAST majority of folks here in the colonies feel the same as you Brits.
You just get the same small handful of vocal people on the internet grinding their personal axes and such. No one cares what they say.
EBT Jim posted:Ukaflyer posted:It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past.
Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings.
The VAST majority of folks here in the colonies feel the same as you Brits.
You just get the same small handful of vocal people on the internet grinding their personal axes and such. No one cares what they say.
Tomorrow I am going down to the Watercress line to see the ‘Flying Scotsman’. We have a couple of tickets for one of the planned runs. She is a northern engine compared to my childhood days of ‘Southern’ locomotive power, but do I care, no, it is an iconic engine regardless, it is living, breathing and alive, what more can you ask for?
EBT Jim posted:Ukaflyer posted:It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past.
Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings.
The VAST majority of folks here in the colonies feel the same as you Brits.
You just get the same small handful of vocal people on the internet grinding their personal axes and such. No one cares what they say.
Yeah, this response is quite fair. But that minority is awfully vocal. I once wondered if I posted about 4014 on, say, a woman's quilting forum, if one of the usual posters on that would show up with their bile in a jug, ready to spew?
UP's program is a corporate program. There used to be several of them but UP's is really the last one around (yes, some short lines have steam, I'm talking about Class I). So, this means the people involved were paid railroad employees handling steam for mainline railroads, a very rare thing over here.
In the case of UP, there's a lot of animosity in general. A lot of people loved the prior head of the UP steam program, Steve Lee. Many of the same people who loved Steve hate (or at least don't love) Ed, the current head of the program.
I guess this is normal and I won't go into the drama because quite frankly, I know it all third or fourth-handed, so God alone knows what is actually true there.
Suffice to say that some people accused Ed of everything short of Masterminding 9/11 and the extinction of the dinosaurs. Many train fans, myself included, simply couldn't have cared less if it meant that a Big Boy would actually run.
"Oh no," the nay-sayers cried, "It'll never happen, Ed will destroy it all." Well, we all know how that turned out. Yeah, the UP steam team came amazingly close to the promised run to Utah for the 150th anniversary of the golden spike. I potentially agree with the same nay-sayers who declared that 4014 wasn't running at full power (and perhaps was just in steam enough to allow itself to be pushed by 844 and the trailing diesel) on that trip, as they'd just gotten 4014 under steam a few days before they were to leave for Utah. I assume that was quite the white-knuckle trip for that reason.
"Oh no," some of the same said, "It's not actually running and never will." Well, we all know how that turned out. Just watch the video of the follow-on later trips. 4014 was quite handling her load on those trips.
I'm convinced that among the nay-sayers, several wanted the program to implode. They wanted 844 and 4014 to not run again, just so they could be proved right, that Ed was the devil incarnate, proving them right all along. All I know is 4014 is running now, and I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. Most aren't anymore and have instead directed their stream of bile toward the evil of not also returning 3985 to service again. Sure, it'd be great to see a double-headed 3985 and 4014, who wouldn't wanna see that? But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?
Just goes to show there'll always be people who can't be pleased...
Mike D posted:Hot Water posted:Robert K posted:And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.
Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.
So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?
No, Amtrak has stated that they will no longer allow excursions, steam or otherwise, under their insurance umbrella. Thus, none of the sponsoring organizations of excursions, can afford the liability insurance premiums for 750 million dollars of coverage, required by all the class 1 railroads. Also, by federal law as part of the beginning of Amtrak, U.S. railroads are prohibited from selling tickets to passengers. The end result is: A) sponsoring organizations can no longer afford to purchase such high liability insurance, and B) Amtrak will no longer allow excursions.
Hot Water posted:Mike D posted:Hot Water posted:Robert K posted:And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.
Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.
So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?
No, Amtrak has stated that they will no longer allow excursions, steam or otherwise, under their insurance umbrella. Thus, none of the sponsoring organizations of excursions, can afford the liability insurance premiums for 750 million dollars of coverage, required by all the class 1 railroads. Also, by federal law as part of the beginning of Amtrak, U.S. railroads are prohibited from selling tickets to passengers. The end result is: A) sponsoring organizations can no longer afford to purchase such high liability insurance, and B) Amtrak will no longer allow excursions.
BUMMER! I was really, really wanting to go on an excursion behind 4014 one day. I guess YouTube videos or a photo run-by, (if I am ever out west to catch it in action) will be my only options.
Mike D posted:Hot Water posted:Mike D posted:Hot Water posted:Robert K posted:And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.
Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.
So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?
No, Amtrak has stated that they will no longer allow excursions, steam or otherwise, under their insurance umbrella. Thus, none of the sponsoring organizations of excursions, can afford the liability insurance premiums for 750 million dollars of coverage, required by all the class 1 railroads. Also, by federal law as part of the beginning of Amtrak, U.S. railroads are prohibited from selling tickets to passengers. The end result is: A) sponsoring organizations can no longer afford to purchase such high liability insurance, and B) Amtrak will no longer allow excursions.
BUMMER! I was really, really wanting to go on an excursion behind 4014 one day. I guess YouTube videos or a photo run-by, (if I am ever out west to catch it in action) will be my only options.
The UP 4014 has actually handled two "fund raisers" for a group in Utah and also Southern California. Both were one-way trips, with bus return and NO PHOTO-RunBys! The tickets started at $500 for a coach seat, and upwards of $2500 for dome seats. Obviously NOT for the "common man". Plus, each and every passenger had to sign a liability release! The "good old days" of steam excursions is long gone.
p51 posted:...But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?
Adding to this, another thing to consider is the manpower available to do the job in the first place. Even if the two furloughed members of the Steam Team were kept, I feel that the staff would still have their hands full trying to maintain and operate just 4014 and 844. Adding the Challenger into the mix and performing a third expensive rebuild would just be too much for the crew.
TrainMan1225 posted:p51 posted:...But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?Adding to this, another thing to consider is the manpower available to do the job in the first place. Even if the two furloughed members of the Steam Team were kept, I feel that the staff would still have their hands full trying to maintain and operate just 4014 and 844. Adding the Challenger into the mix and performing a third expensive rebuild would just be too much for the crew.
Well, the previous Steam Crew, under Steve Lee, sure didn't seem to have a problem with maintaining/overhauling either 844 or 3985, with much fewer people and a much lower budget for close to 30 years. Plus, there was NEVER a year that at least one steam locomotive was NOT operational.
It's amazing to me how cannibalistic the steam and railfan community can be towards it own. Better yet, 95% of the people on the forum haven't even met Ed Dickens and some will still insist on essentially stating they wouldn't relieve themselves on him if he was on fire. Remember folks, there are two sides to every story and most of the time (in my experience) the truth lands somewhere in between so...1) Don't believe everything you read on the internet and 2) Don't believe everything you don't believe on the internet.
Back to the topic, I'm very glad to see a UP 4000 running and I looking forward to seeing what her plans are for 2020. She's a wonderful ambassador for steam preservation and to say otherwise is living in denial.
Hot Water posted:TrainMan1225 posted:p51 posted:...But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?Adding to this, another thing to consider is the manpower available to do the job in the first place. Even if the two furloughed members of the Steam Team were kept, I feel that the staff would still have their hands full trying to maintain and operate just 4014 and 844. Adding the Challenger into the mix and performing a third expensive rebuild would just be too much for the crew.
Well, the previous Steam Crew, under Steve Lee, sure didn't seem to have a problem with maintaining/overhauling either 844 or 3985, with much fewer people and a much lower budget for close to 30 years. Plus, there was NEVER a year that at least one steam locomotive was NOT operational.
Something I thought of yet been afraid to ask.....easy now Jack. I could google it or something....
Who maintained the 4449? Was it just a different shop, still owned by UP? I assumed it was under Steve Lee's program.
Yikes I posted that? Duck! Is it safe?
The Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation owns and maintains 4449. The UP had nothing to do with it, other than being stored in an ex-SP roundhouse that UP owned in Portland, Oregon until 2012.
Rusty
@UKaflyer.... dear God, Flying Scotsman! If you want to stir up endless controversy over here, that’s the magic words. Personally, I rather like it but I could think of plenty of other things that could have been done with the money.
But, FLYING SCOTSMAN! My good wife, who last got on a train in about 1986, recognises it. My two-year-old granddaughter knows the name, AND knows it isn’t Thomas. My neighbour, in her 80s and frail, badgered her son to take her to see it, last time out. Boneheaded “enthusiasts” obstruct the tracks in hundreds to see it.
Rusty Traque posted:The Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation owns and maintains 4449. The UP had nothing to do with it, other than being stored in an ex-SP roundhouse that UP owned in Portland, Oregon until 2012.
Rusty
Thanks.
Hmmm. I thought HW worked for the UP steam program? 
I don't believe that ANYONE is complaining that another steam engine has been returned to service. I believe that the complaint is that one has been removed from service. There is no net gain in numbers here.
Most are just hunky-dory that 4014 is back in steam. But lots of folks are dismayed that the cost was 3985.
palallin posted:I don't believe that ANYONE is complaining that another steam engine has been returned to service.
You didn't see some of the posts people made prior to 4014 actually getting under steam. Yes, there were people who had a real issue about this engine running.
That said, I assume most of it centered around how much those posting hated Ed.
It can be done...just ashame it won't be done. Volunteers and a massive go fund me. Warren Buffet, would you like to contribute?
