@Yellowstone Special posted:Watched the video and wow. I guess we really do get what we pay for.
Thanks for watching; I was really bummed by my findings because this industry needs competition. I am hoping Menards can either lower the price or increase the value. Time will tell!
@TheRambles posted:Thanks for watching; I was really bummed by my findings because this industry needs competition. I am hoping Menards can either lower the price or increase the value. Time will tell!
Sure thing, Tony.
Silly me. I've been opening up my boxes with a box cutter! 😁
Perhaps the beta part is not the locomotive, it's us. Are we willing to pay that price?
Scott Smith
@scott.smith posted:Perhaps the beta part is not the locomotive, it's us. Are we willing to pay that price?
Scott Smith
Direct market research at its finest!
I once had a manufacturer ship a Beta 2.0 product to me and couldn't figure the difference between the first one until I asked... they changed the shipping box to reduce cost and to make sure the product was still safe in the new packing. The actual product inside was identical.
Very informative video. Thanks to @TheRambles for producing and posting. The video can certainly be retitled "Creative Uses for Crowbars in Your Workshop." Who knew? 
@Bruce Brown posted:Very informative video. Thanks to @TheRambles for producing and posting. The video can certainly be retitled "Creative Uses for Crowbars in Your Workshop." Who knew?
I am glad you appreciated the humor behind it. Some did not LOL
@Frank Mulligan posted:These probably appeal to people who don't have a command control system, nor feel like paying the crazy prices for one.
Honestly, $200 is nearly too much for my taste, even for 2 units. As I see it, the LC FT units are going for $500 from Lionel's website. That is 
With tax and shipping we finally paid about $200 for a sealed set of K-Line Golden State Alco AAs (both powered). But a few years ago? Forget it.
My good engine set (Williams AA F3) was about $117 2nd-hand and looks & runs great.
All that to say, the $275 mentioned elsewhere in this thread for a competitor product (for only ONE unit)... seems insane to some of our wallets. If only this Menards engine runs on conventional, I don't care about sounds etc. If it has to have a remote, a BT app would be nice.
TL;DR I'll gladly pay for this when it has conventional, and it's almost out of my price range at $200.
Its really laughable ! The same group bashing Menards. The same group , that doesn't know the deference's between an F3, F7, or FP9. The same group fails to understand if you don't like a brand , don't buy it. If you can do better , take a few Million and start your own company!
Hmm ... same engine number as my powered one
That's no good ...
@TheRambles posted:I am glad you appreciated the humor behind it. Some did not LOL
Tony, I completely got it! Hilarious. I have really enjoyed you guys who are crushing it on YouTube. You’re the future, so keep doing it your way.
@Dave Koehler posted:Its really laughable ! The same group bashing Menards. The same group , that doesn't know the deference's between an F3, F7, or FP9. The same group fails to understand if you don't like a brand , don't buy it. If you can do better , take a few Million and start your own company!
You forgot the part about not realizing Menards is not a toy train manufacturer, or a hobby shop.
@Dave Koehler posted:Its really laughable ! The same group bashing Menards. The same group , that doesn't know the deference's between an F3, F7, or FP9. The same group fails to understand if you don't like a brand , don't buy it. If you can do better , take a few Million and start your own company!
I run, collect, admire and appreciate O Gauge Trains because I like them. I don't buy trains to please the opinions of others or because it's what others like. I agree with Dave, "... if you don't like a brand, don't buy it." I thought this forum was suppose to support the hobby and those who enjoy it regardless of financial status, brand likes or dislikes, color or model preferences.
Everyone has an opinion and I can respect that, as long as they are respectful in stating their view(s) and aren't bashing others for their opinions and choices. I have Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Bachmann, Menards and a few other brands and see positives and negatives with all. If there is something I don't like I don't bleed negative comments on the forum or beat it to death. If you don't own something who are you (or what right do you have) to pass judgement on it. One can easily share their opinions and feelings without being critical of or slamming others for their likes and choices.
I seldom post on the forum because of the dominant few who love to pontificate their feelings and opinions without regard to the feelings of others. It's like piranhas in a fish tank and you accidentally dip you hand in it. I feel for newbies on this forum when they post a question and the piranhas start biting with comments like "this has been addressed a dozen times already" or "did you search for it first?" If they're new - how would they know?
If someone takes offense to my comments I apologize. I just wish posters would be more sensitive and considerate when they share their opinions, dislikes or disagreements.
Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to vent.
Apologies in advance for the long post.
People can be funny. One of the discussions that pop up here with some familiarity is the future of the hobby. We hear about the fact that O gauge manufacturers don’t advertise or have the same conventional retail footprint that they used to have, that the product is too expensive at the entry point and for kids, etc. These are all factors referenced as reasons for the decline of the hobby, together with demographic factors. Then Menards comes along with accessories and then rolling stock and now locomotives that it can sell at the holidays in its large number of home improvement stores. At a reasonable price. In other words, it directly addresses the concerns that many people here have raised. And then people pan the product because . . . it is an entry level product that is perfect for those that want a holiday display or for kids at a reasonable price. Frankly I have never understood why people on this forum have been so “into” the Menards product, and quick to buy it and then criticize it, particularly the critics who also probably operate Lionel Legacy or DCS layouts, because the product is not aimed towards them. It is for the less serious hobbyist that wants a nice, reasonable well performing and good looking locomotive that he or she can use, and let the kids use, without raiding the college fund for the purchase price. With a remote, because that is what kids and many adults expect today. And if it breaks, it can get returned to the store and replaced (eventually when we are past beta versions) without a multi week or multi month saga. In other words, it’s a normal toy.
As far as competitors to it, frankly in my judgment most of those comparisons are, with all due respect, not convincing.
Lionel has done the best job of trying to maintain the entry point with its entry level sets - in fact they are really the only game in town - and the LC remote is clearly part of that strategy. That being said, Lionel is today a niche product and its starter sets, even if perfect from a marketing perspective, are not generally seen outside of specialty store and hobby shops. Plus, a store like a Menards, I would guess, would not do business with Lionel if they cannot get a conventional return policy worked out. No big box retailer is going to tell the customer that if the product is defective they have to get an RA and wait 8 weeks etc. or get a refund because there is no replacement available, so little Billy is disappointed come Christmas morning. From a business perspective, the only customers who tolerate this kind of thing are on this forum. People expect stuff to work or they get it replaced quickly.
Secondly, the availability of Legacy, DCS, or TMCC on the used market at this price point is irrelevant for this part of the market. No parent, and no kid, wants to fuss with the set up involved with any of those command systems, and certainly the cost of the command system itself is a relevant factor. I think set up of these systems is simple but “normal” people do not. And operating conventionally with a transformer is not where the market is. See Williams for what happens when you try to appeal to this end of the market and offer zero technology or upgrade for the interface. Kids in particular expect a remote or a phone. Our DCS remote sits unused (unless I use it) since we got the DCS app. Plus, we hear again about the outrage of parts availability, particularly boards, for Legacy and DCS locos. The late and great Marty Fitzhenry one told me to avoid command control “eBay queens” because many of them need work, and when one factors in the price of potential electronic repairs that could be needed, assuming they can be made given the availability of parts, he said they were to be avoided. I take his advice and it has proven sound. So telling the average “normal” consumer that they can find a 12 year old Lionel Legacy / TMCC or DCS locomotive on eBay is kind of irrelevant unless you are a pro who can fix them and take that risk at reasonable cost. And certainly almost no parent is going to buy a used locomotive for a kid, for precisely this same reason - too much potential aggravation.
All that is a long way of saying that Menards’ entry into the motive power segment of O gauge is probably the biggest and best news for the hobby in a long time, even if the product is not aimed for you or me ( and it is perfectly fine if some people here are into that product). So the criticism of the micro aspects of the product, while missing the big picture, seems pretty odd to me. Forest for the trees so to speak.
If Menards reads this forum, I hope they read this and keep up the great work. I hope it proves a viable business for the company and that it gets more people into this terrific hobby we have.
Have a good day everyone.
Ray Lombardo's post above gives a pretty good analysis of today's O scale market in general, looking at the whole picture. I've had MTH, Williams, and Lionel locomotives over the years and chose to expand and stay with Lionel by personal choice.
Menards probably does help fill the need for inexpensive equipment made for younger kids just starting in the hobby, or for a train around the Christmas tree. Nothing wrong with that.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Menards probably does help fill the need for inexpensive equipment made for younger kids just starting in the hobby, or for a train around the Christmas tree. Nothing wrong with that.
Personally, knowing I only speak for my family, while MTH etc products can be nice, they are prohibitively expensive to purchase. I can get 2-3 Menards cars for the price of one other-company car. And they are toys. We've been collecting & playing with trains since before 2000, and avoided purchasing anything for probably 15 years because of the price. Then along comes Menards at $20-$25 per car, once again piquing our interest. Since then we've spent more than I care to think about, but (to the best of my knowledge and aside from an occasional engine) nothing has been more than $50 apiece.
@Ray Lombardo posted:It is for the less serious hobbyist that wants a nice, reasonable well performing and good looking locomotive that he or she can use, and let the kids use, without raiding the college fund for the purchase price. With a remote, because that is what kids and many adults expect today.
...No parent, and no kid, wants to fuss with the set up involved with any of those command systems, and certainly the cost of the command system itself is a relevant factor. I think set up of these systems is simple but “normal” people do not. ... So telling the average “normal” consumer that they can find a 12 year old Lionel Legacy / TMCC or DCS locomotive on eBay is kind of irrelevant unless you are a pro who can fix them and take that risk at reasonable cost. And certainly almost no parent is going to buy a used locomotive for a kid, for precisely this same reason - too much potential aggravation.All that is a long way of saying that Menards’ entry into the motive power segment of O gauge is probably the biggest and best news for the hobby in a long time, even if the product is not aimed for you or me ( and it is perfectly fine if some people here are into that product). So the criticism of the micro aspects of the product, while missing the big picture, seems pretty odd to me. Forest for the trees so to speak.
If Menards reads this forum, I hope they read this and keep up the great work. I hope it proves a viable business for the company and that it gets more people into this terrific hobby we have.
We've avoided buying TMCC etc because of not knowing how it works, what is required, and (largely) the price. Scared of buying used or incomplete, unwilling to afford new. Too many potential headaches--and too steep a learning curve--for too little ROI.
While my first engine was a $50 K-Line S-2, and my second engine is a used Williams F3AA set for about $100, we've also purchased used engines--that looked very nice--that also didn't run at all. That really annoyed us, to the point that we aren't really buying engines from one particular website.
TL;DR: Thank you for your excellent post. It really puts the finger on where many of us less serious hobbyists are.
Go Menards!!!
I think any new builder in this market is a great idea. Yes they are not perfect, but if you want an engine to tinker with or repaint for 200 bucks why complain?
I have the first engine and it runs fine, grand kids love it and it is easy on the wallet. I used to hear the same things about K Line..
I had hopes with Menards being a Midwest company, I'd see Midwest road names. Personally, since the quality isn't there and the price isn't drastically beating Lionel, I don't see much interest to me. Their cars are cheap, a little problematic, but fill a much needed spot in the market. I do love their track and really wish they'd make switches.
I just got the box, opened it and took a picture. Don't have time til the weekend to test it.
@Jim R. posted:Correct the title. The name of the company is Menards.
Done and changed A and B to A and Dummy A. Thanks for the heads up.
I opened up the carton and was relieved that the units appeared undamaged. I was aware that there was an issue with a capacitor in a prior dummy which was a hazard and was happily surprised that there is now what appears to be a bridge rectifier and two resistors along with the capacitor.
The unit is incredibly light but the paint, although not lionel or MTH quality, not filled with fingerprints or other clearly noticeable defects.
I have not yet put it on the track but wanted to send photos out of what I have to date.
Manny
Happy to report both A units are working. No capacitor issues. Ran for five to ten minutes to break it in. Remote connected immediately. Slowest speed is not a creep but is comparable to running trains without command control. Hooked up to two Lionel passenger cars and it ran faster than preferred but smoothly. Similar to conventional speed not command control.
Pleasant surprise.
Menards has listened to everyone that bought the Betas and made several large improvements to their diesels with all the Beta releases...I have a feeling a production run is approaching soon!
Was thinking of getting a dummy to repaint as this is the only cheap model on the market with the longer body for the FP longer passenger bodies. ? Humm wonder if those trucks and underbody details could be repainted to black? Those of you that have the engines does it look like plating on the bottom? Wonder if I could sand and paint over it?
@yamawho posted:Hmm ... same engine number as my powered one
That's no good ...
And the same as my red/silver ones; both powered and dummy. An easy enough change if i decide to.
I have a set of the Menard's Blue Bonnet F3s. They use the same trucks and geared wheels on both the powered and dummy A units. They appear to be made of very lite weight plastic. It does not appear to be plated but may be. The entire truck assembly, frame and pilot is molded from the same stuff. Very shinny....high gloss. I suppose you could paint over them making sure with a test first to see if the paint you are using will stick to plastic. The detailing is quite good. The only things that appear to be metal are the roller assemblies and the screws. Having said that, the power A unit is a good deal heavier; even though the trucks and body are identical in both units. So, it has good heavy motors and very good electronics. The set runs very well at all speeds with a fine sound unit and RC. The only difference I can find between the power and the dummy units are the power unit has motors and electronics; while everything else is the same....even the number boards. I hope this helps. I like mine and the price directly from Menard's could not be beat.
@PRRMP54 posted:And the same as my red/silver ones; both powered and dummy. An easy enough change if i decide to.
Decided to order the dummy.
I will try store pickup this time since I plan to be in Ohio in a few weeks.
Here is a solution I found to fix the older model that smokes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF72UwiVTso
Are there any others who purchased the recent Beta 5's that can elaborate on the differences say between Beta 3 and the new one? Just curious as there should be some kind of noticeable difference.
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