Menard’s flat car derailing (Update - problem fixed, sort of)

Looks like "string lining."

Steve

It does sound like a "string line" derailment issue.  Try running the flat at the end of the train and if the problem stops it is a string line issue.  The car may need the weight of a load to help keep it from derailing when there are multiple cars  behind it in the consist.

Right, it doesn’t do it when no load, but this load is so minimal and no other car I have has this problem. The helicopter itself isn’t enough so maybe time to add some additional weight. Just doesn’t seem like I should have to. 

What is after it on the train? As they said if moving it to the rear solved your issue most likely it.

Does it still do it if you swap out the car in front with another?

I was watching the video and this is probably a dumb question. Could the wheels be catching on the underbody of the flat car in the curve................Paul 2

Paul, 

This new layout isn't providing me a reply link. I think your question is a good one, does the truck rotate freely?

Hi guys- after this flat car, there are 8 empty hoppers with needle point axles and a lighted bay window caboose. Doesn’t feel like much load to me. 

I don’t see evidence that the wheel is hitting the frame of the car. If it were doing that, wouldn’t it derail regardless of the load? Also, the trucks do rotate freely. 

But here is some new data: I tried 8 different cars in front of the flat car, and half resulted in derailment and half didn’t. It seemed like the older cars (postwar) generally worked better, so I wonder if it does after all have something to do with tolerances inside the coupler?

I’m inclined to start filing away.. or, just remember that the chopper car has to be behind something old. 

In any case, it has been an interesting experiment!

I seem to remember other posts in the past about this issue.  I believe some Menard's cars were produced with inadequate clearance in the couplers, resulting in a tight fit.  The couplers really need a little bit of clearance to work effectively.  Therefore, filing on them is necessary.

Another problem one can notice with tight couplers is when you go to lift a car out of a consist, and it tries to pull one or both adjacent cars up with it.  I have had this problem on at least a few cars, and had to do some filing.

Tight couplers are most likely to be most problematic on tight curves.  I don't really have too big a problem, as my smallest curved tracks on my current layout are O42.

Mixed Freight posted:

I seem to remember other posts in the past about this issue.  I believe some Menard's cars were produced with inadequate clearance in the couplers, resulting in a tight fit.  The couplers really need a little bit of clearance to work effectively.  Therefore, filing on them is necessary.

Another problem one can notice with tight couplers is when you go to lift a car out of a consist, and it tries to pull one or both adjacent cars up with it.  I have had this problem on at least a few cars, and had to do some filing.

Tight couplers are most likely to be most problematic on tight curves.  I don't really have too big a problem, as my smallest curved tracks on my current layout are O42.

Hi Paul,

Yes, I read about that too and have indeed experienced it with other Menard's cars I have purchased. I took to the Dremel and ground out the inside of the coupler and it seems to work better now. It's kind of disappointing because their offerings looks so great but the rolling stock doesn't really work well enough for my purposes so I'll be sticking to their buildings.

Thanks everyone who weighed in on this. Stay safe out there.

Kevin

Did you try running the car reversed to see if the other truck had the same issue?

BobbyD posted:

Did you try running the car reversed to see if the other truck had the same issue?

Hi Bobby - yes, I did. It was always the leading truck that derailed regardless of which way I flipped the car. When I switched to using an older car in front (pulling the flat car), the problem was less. I tried a bunch of different cars and the new ones with tight couplers made the flat car derail and the old ones didn’t. So I’m guessing it has to do with coupler tolerances. That is a problem with another Menard’s car I have. Hoping the dremel fix will work. 

You mentioned that you adjusted the wheel gauge by 1/16”.  I have had more problems with Menards cars derailing that any other brand.  I have found that most Menards cars come with a gauge of around 26 mm and that adjusting the gauge to 27.5 mm allows them to track well.  The photos below show how to measure and adjust the gauge.  Note that these photos show a Menards box car or hopper truck.  For the Menards 14” flat car it’s easier.  You just need to remove the plastic caps from the ends of the axle to adjust the gauge.

You should also check the gauge of the track in the spots where the derailment occurs.  Is it different than at other locations on your layout? 

I don't know if this will help or confuse but I had a similar issue with a Menard's covered hopper. Even though the description claims the car is able to negotiate O27 curves this one couldn't get through an O42 curve. It was like the truck was lifting the car off the track. Turns out the stirrup steps were catching the truck in it's swing causing a derailment. Removed the offending steps and problem went away. That's my story for what it's worth.

Jim McC.

Grampstrains posted:

After buying four Menard's cars and having three with bad trucks, I decided the best fix was to stop buying Menard's cars.   20 bucks ain't worth the aggravation.

I have bought 20+Menards cars, none with bad trucks, so your experience apparently is not typical.

Lehigh74 posted:

You mentioned that you adjusted the wheel gauge by 1/16”.  I have had more problems with Menards cars derailing that any other brand.  I have found that most Menards cars come with a gauge of around 26 mm and that adjusting the gauge to 27.5 mm allows them to track well.  The photos below show how to measure and adjust the gauge.  Note that these photos show a Menards box car or hopper truck.  For the Menards 14” flat car it’s easier.  You just need to remove the plastic caps from the ends of the axle to adjust the gauge.

You should also check the gauge of the track in the spots where the derailment occurs.  Is it different than at other locations on your layout? 

Thanks, that’s helpful. Making that adjustment did seem to help. 
I’ll look at the track but I would think that if there were a wide variance, I would have problems with more than just this (and my one other) Menard’s car. 

RadioRon posted:

Grampstrains posted:

After buying four Menard's cars and having three with bad trucks, I decided the best fix was to stop buying Menard's cars.   20 bucks ain't worth the aggravation.

I have bought 20+Menards cars, none with bad trucks, so your experience apparently is not typical.

 

Well, I’m 0 for 2 with Menard’s and agree that it probably isn’t worth the aggravation, for me anyway. Too bad because I had hoped to pick up that really cool Coast Guard chopper car. Based on this experience, think I’ll probably pass. 

Grampstrains posted:

After buying four Menard's cars and having three with bad trucks, I decided the best fix was to stop buying Menard's cars.   20 bucks ain't worth the aggravation.

Agree. Buildings are great though! 

Ont Sou posted:

I don't know if this will help or confuse but I had a similar issue with a Menard's covered hopper. Even though the description claims the car is able to negotiate O27 curves this one couldn't get through an O42 curve. It was like the truck was lifting the car off the track. Turns out the stirrup steps were catching the truck in it's swing causing a derailment. Removed the offending steps and problem went away. That's my story for what it's worth.

Jim McC.

Jim - that’s interesting. Mine also appear to be lifting up but it doesn’t seem to be a clearance issue. Glad you were able to fix the problem to your satisfaction. 

I bought a 24-pack of 027 flatcars knowing the couplers were going to be problematic. It was a "challenge accepted" sort of thing. I figured out the issue (tight couplers owing to tolerances and flash) and fixed it with some selective filing. The full train ran flawlessly, to the extent that the next time I run them, the train will have inflated to twice its original car count.

I also have a bunch of standard Menards boxcars, hoppers, etc waiting their turn to run. If those have any issues I'll fix 'em too.

(BTW, looking for three empty Menards boxcar cartons with the plastic inserts--I'm contact-able if anyone has some they were going to toss)

---PCJ 

Right, can’t be too hard to fix although you should not have too. Seems like fairly easy fixes if needed, just had to figure it out which is what this forum is for😀

I have a few Menards cars, a couple of flats and box cars. The last one I got was a New Haven box car. The others are fine but the box car derials on curves too. I haven't adjusted it yet but the wheel gauge is a bit tight compared to Lionel cars.

Must have been a change in truck suppliers recently or their wheel machine needs to be calibrated.

dogdoc posted:

Right, can’t be too hard to fix although you should not have too. Seems like fairly easy fixes if needed, just had to figure it out which is what this forum is for😀

Agree with all that. 

RSJB18 posted:

I have a few Menards cars, a couple of flats and box cars. The last one I got was a New Haven box car. The others are fine but the box car derials on curves too. I haven't adjusted it yet but the wheel gauge is a bit tight compared to Lionel cars.

Must have been a change in truck suppliers recently or their wheel machine needs to be calibrated.

Interesting, thanks for the report. Although the concept is great (inexpensive and attractive rolling stock), the execution doesn’t seem to be quite there yet. 

This probably isn’t the problem, and you probably already checked it, but…

Are all your problem spots in curves?

The 14” flat car has Philips screws that hold the trucks to the chassis.  If the screws are too tight, the trucks won’t swivel freely.  Easily fixed by loosening the screws so the trucks swivel freely.

Grampstrains posted:

After buying four Menard's cars and having three with bad trucks, I decided the best fix was to stop buying Menard's cars.   20 bucks ain't worth the aggravation.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.  Menards is the place to buy freight cars if you want to buy a whole train and have a few bucks left in your pocket.  I generally need to do some fiddling to get them to work well on my layout, but for the price, I don’t mind a little fiddling.

Lehigh74 posted:

This probably isn’t the problem, and you probably already checked it, but…

Are all your problem spots in curves?

The 14” flat car has Philips screws that hold the trucks to the chassis.  If the screws are too tight, the trucks won’t swivel freely.  Easily fixed by loosening the screws so the trucks swivel freely.

That is a good suggestion - I discovered that because when I put the trucks back on, I overtightened them, which is easy to do, and they bound up. They're moving freely now. Thanks.

Also, you might put the flat car at the end of your train, just ahead of the caboose. Maybe the load behind the car is pulling it off the tracks. Don

scale rail posted:

Also, you might put the flat car at the end of your train, just ahead of the caboose. Maybe the load behind the car is pulling it off the tracks. Don

Hi Don, yes that helps for sure. But my hope is that I wouldn't be limited that way. I now have it roughly in the middle of the consist, and with the right car in front of it and the grinding I did on the couplers, it isn't derailing at the moment.

I've got a good one for everybody.  Although I have had a few Menard's truck problems here and there (usually just an axle popped out of place), I got a real surprise about a week ago .  An Erie Lackawanna black coal hopper (one of two that I have) derailed and shorted out the Tx circuit breaker while ticking off some laps.  Initial inspection showed that one of the wheels had come loose from the knurling on an axle and had actually drifted inward on the axle (going way under-gauged) and shorting out while go over a turnout.  I had to pry the wheel back out to proper gauge over the knurling.  Inspecting the other hopper car, I found the same problem - it too had a wheel starting to drift inward.  I pried it back out to the proper position.

A really odd problem, because unless I missed something somewhere, I haven't seen another post on this forum describing this loose wheel problem.  And this is the only time that this has happened to me with any of my Menard's cars (or ANY of my various makes of cars, for that matter).

And yeah, being that they are hopper cars, I too had to cut off the stirrups from the corners of the cars, so the trucks could properly swivel.  Come to think of it, I also added weight to these hoppers - they are a little too light in my opinion for proper tracking in longer strings of cars.

Although I am at times a little critical of Menard's offerings (mostly on the wrong-era loads they offer on a lot of their flat cars), I still think they are a great buy for the money, and am truly glad they produce what they do.  It's just that I don't buy quite as much as what I would like to, due to the wrong era stuff.  And I suspect that other modelers might possibly feel the same way, too. 

A little dab of red Loctite can be used to keep the wheels in place on the axle.

Years ago when I got a Lionel 0-4-0 switcher the plastic tender was very light. The same thing happened to that tender if I put some heavy metal log loader cars behind it. Finally put some weights inside the tender. Of course you can't do that with the flat car but maybe a heavy load would also help. Don

Mixed Freight posted:

I've got a good one for everybody.  Although I have had a few Menard's truck problems here and there (usually just an axle popped out of place), I got a real surprise about a week ago .  An Erie Lackawanna black coal hopper (one of two that I have) derailed and shorted out the Tx circuit breaker while ticking off some laps.  Initial inspection showed that one of the wheels had come loose from the knurling on an axle and had actually drifted inward on the axle (going way under-gauged) and shorting out while go over a turnout.  I had to pry the wheel back out to proper gauge over the knurling.  Inspecting the other hopper car, I found the same problem - it too had a wheel starting to drift inward.  I pried it back out to the proper position.

A really odd problem, because unless I missed something somewhere, I haven't seen another post on this forum describing this loose wheel problem.  And this is the only time that this has happened to me with any of my Menard's cars (or ANY of my various makes of cars, for that matter).

Sounds like it may be a one-off problem. Haven't heard of loose wheels, but slightly narrow gauge seems to be common.

And yeah, being that they are hopper cars, I too had to cut off the stirrups from the corners of the cars, so the trucks could properly swivel.  Come to think of it, I also added weight to these hoppers - they are a little too light in my opinion for proper tracking in longer strings of cars.

Although I am at times a little critical of Menard's offerings (mostly on the wrong-era loads they offer on a lot of their flat cars), I still think they are a great buy for the money, and am truly glad they produce what they do.  It's just that I don't buy quite as much as what I would like to, due to the wrong era stuff.  And I suspect that other modelers might possibly feel the same way, too. 

I don't mind having the different eras, since my layout is kind of all over the map in that regard. I do, however, prefer my rolling stock to make it around the loop without derailing, which so far has been my experience with this brand. I can't believe how awesome their buildings are, though, for the price!

scale rail posted:

Years ago when I got a Lionel 0-4-0 switcher the plastic tender was very light. The same thing happened to that tender if I put some heavy metal log loader cars behind it. Finally put some weights inside the tender. Of course you can't do that with the flat car but maybe a heavy load would also help. Don

Don - yes, I did the same thing with my 1615 switcher and it helped a lot. That little engine has the pulling power of something twice its size!

bmoran4 posted:

A little dab of red Loctite can be used to keep the wheels in place on the axle.

Yes! Probably better than super glue, but that works too. 

You can easily put stickon wheel weights on the bottom of a flatcar, just carry them on top first to see if it helps. Both Menards cars that I have were too narrow a wheel gauge and derailed all the time until I widened them.

I find that some look as if the 4 wheels don't sit flat, as if vertical movement is impeded.

Do you think the "depth" of the wheel is less for some reason, from the factory?

CoastsideKevin posted:

All - I promise I have read every thread imaginable on this topic and after spending many hours tinkering and puzzling over this, I have decided to plea for help from the forum. 

I have a Menard’s 14” helicopter flatcar from 2016 that is derailing on an O72 curve and I can’t figure out why. The wheels seemed to be a bit close together so I moved them 1/16” wider on all four axles. No change  

Here is a short video of the issue.

This is on a flat surface with 9 MPC cars behind it, so not even very much load. But still, this happens every time (and at other places on the layout) and it does not matter if I turn the car around, always the leading truck derails. I checked the couplers and they are not too tight but I would be happy to file away at them if I thought that would help. 

Hoping this nice looking car can be salvaged.

Thanks, everyone! Kevin 

Unfortunately, I don't have anything constructive to add to this thread other than to say I got to it too late.  I just ordered three Menard's flat cars with missile loads which I too will be running on 072 curves.  If I had known of all the problems people were having with these Menard's flat cars I never would have ordered them.  Twenty bucks per car or not I really don't think a consumer should have to pick and file away at a new item to make it work.  I'll keep my fingers crossed but I ain't optimistic.

OKHIKER posted:

Thanks, everyone! Kevin Unfortunately, I don't have anything constructive to add to this thread other than to say I got to it too late.  I just ordered three Menard's flat cars with missile loads which I too will be running on 072 curves.  If I had known of all the problems people were having with these Menard's flat cars I never would have ordered them.  Twenty bucks per car or not I really don't think a consumer should have to pick and file away at a new item to make it work.  I'll keep my fingers crossed but I ain't optimistic.

For a measly 3 cars?  I wouldn't think it would take THAT long to do a little bit of filing.

Regardless, I still feel for you.  Generally, I buy one of any unknown car, and carefully evaluate.  If I like it, then I buy more.  If not, chalk it up to experience, make lemonade out of any lemons, and move on.

What's the other option?  $70 or $80 per car (or more) from Lionel or MTH?  Only if I REALLY want it.  Otherwise, no thanks.  I seem to be doing just fine without.