WARNING: Menards 4.0 Santa Fe Dummy Unit Review

@bigkid posted:

Beta is used all the time with software, and yes, the whole point is to let users test something. If a beta unit is defective the people should be told to return it and they will fix or or replace it. Beta is used with software all the time. Beta versions of things like Microsoft windows are free usually, and Beta testers when they report bugs will get a later version. If a beta version is really junky, the user will re-install the original version and then may re-install the beta when it is cleaned up.

If users are happy with fixing the beta unit, that is fine, but if they feel it is too defective to use, don't want to be bothered, then Menards either should fix the unit, replace it or give them back their money. Given these sold old, Menards can always sell it to someone else as reconditioned or something.

Makes sense. I hope they take care of you guys.

Great information Bruce, I was curious why my Beta 4.0 dummy ran for almost an hour without any problems. I decided to open up the dummy unit to see what was different about my unit. What  I found was one of wires going to the capacitor was never soldered or stripped. It was placed along side the capacitor lead  and held together with the shrink tubing. A lucky mistake I guess. I also want to note all the wheels and axels on the power and dummy units roll freely and straight, I am curious to see of Menards makes a statement about this issue.

i

@alextwister posted:

What  I found was one of wires going to the capacitor was never soldered or stripped. It was placed along side the capacitor lead  and held together with the shrink tubing. A lucky mistake I guess.

One of the rare cases in toy train history where a manufacturing assembly defect became your benefit!

@rattler21 posted:

And what if grandma and grandpa buy one of these for little Johnny or little Barbara? John

Grandma and grandma took a risk with a “Beta” unit. Beta implies to me they are hoping to find issues to correct them.

@MartyE posted:

Grandma and grandma took a risk with a “Beta” unit. Beta implies to me they are hoping to find issues to correct them.

The assumption is the elderly know what a 'Beta' unit is?  That is preposterous.  John

From the outside looking in,  it appears y’all are paying your own money to be the cannon fodder for Menards,…..I’m certainly not going to pay to test their “maybe this’ll work “ …..do they offer some sort of assistance on this “beta program” …or in the box is there a pair of safety glasses with a note that reads: put these on first, and good luck!..😳

Pat

I understand these are beta test units but problems like this are dangerous and frankly should not be a risk of purchasing a beta unit. If these are the dangers people should or could expect they certainly should not be paying for them. If fire hazards come testing units like this I would expect people to sign a waiver before having them test my beta unit. Especially if they are paying for it.

Brad

@rattler21 posted:

The assumption is the elderly know what a 'Beta' unit is?  That is preposterous.  John

@rattler21,

I take it your conclusion is that for this reason Menard's should never have offered this sequence of pre-release product to our hobbyists at all?  Because too many of us are elderly?

@harmonyards posted:

From the outside looking in,  it appears y’all are paying your own money to be the cannon fodder for Menards,…..I’m certainly not going to pay to test their “maybe this’ll work “ …..do they offer some sort of assistance on this “beta program” …or in the box is there a pair of safety glasses with a note that reads: put these on first, and good luck!..😳

Pat

Pat,

Agreeing with what @bigkid previously mentioned, that's what Beta means.  It has meant so, in wide and common usage, coming out of software for 40 years.  It meant so for version 1.0 here, and it clearly still means the same for version 4.0.  If you don't want any headaches don't buy a Beta version.

For the rest of us:

Apparently too many of us can't wait for a formal launch, didn't or don't understand the fine print, expect perfection from what has clearly been marketed as a test, and complain vociferously when we don't receive it.

Now, having said all of this, I'm going to flip it around.  A situation involving smoke, and potentially fire, in my opinion is not part of Beta testing (remember the term comes from software, which ostensibly can't combust).

This marketing program has now grown from an attraction, to a problem, to an annoyance, to a headache, to a fiasco, to a verifiable safety-critical situation.

Maybe it's time for Menards to stop, recall every last one made, call the whole thing closed, and move on?

Mike

Wikipedia:

The common law of business balance, usually expressed as "you get what you pay for", is the principle that one cannot pay a little and get a lot. In addition, paying a cheap price will not guarantee the buyer will receive a product of high quality value. In other words, a low price of a good may indicate that the producer compromised quality

@RickO posted:

Wikipedia:

The common law of business balance, usually expressed as "you get what you pay for", is the principle that one cannot pay a little and get a lot. In addition, paying a cheap price will not guarantee the buyer will receive a product of high quality value. In other words, a low price of a good may indicate that the producer compromised quality

Technically true, but what if there's a potential safety issue?  Boy, talk about "buyer beware"!

This whole "beta" thing is...🤔... questionable at best. I'm in agreement with Pat and Mike on this.

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Technically true, but what if there's a potential safety issue?  Boy, talk about "buyer beware"!

This whole "beta" thing is...🤔... questionable at best. I'm in agreement with Pat and Mike on this.

Mark in Oregon

I don't disagree either.

It just seems folks are all over this Menards stuff because of the price.  Yet are disappointed when they don't compare to long time o Guage product manufacturers even when there isn't a safety issue.

There's no money left on the table for things like steel gears, and brass flywheels.

There are electronics techs working for Lionel. MTH etc. I don't know if a big box hardware store store that sells other people's products, has someone to input on the design.

It's a nice effort, but I think we're seeing the limitation of Menards priorities and/or capabilities.

It's a bit unfortunate all of this is happening to these new 4.0 units, but I agree with others that these are purely test units, and Menards never stated that these will work perfectly out of the box - hence the whole "Beta" labeling. Having people purchase and test out their Beta runs allows Menards to receive real feedback from avid O gaugers that know how to operate their trains, and know what quality they'd like to expect. In doing this Menards doesn't have to worry as much about quality control issues at the factory (at least until a full production run!), and can use a factory in China that may not have a lot of experience making trains, but is probably cheaper to use. I think all of this "Beta testing" is so Menards can create a basic, quality train as inexpensively as possible, so that they can pass on those savings to the consumer when they begin mass-producing locomotives.

And lest we forget, how many [expensive] Lionel and MTH models over the years have been allegedly tested, produced, and still arrive to the consumer dead on arrival? How many defects have caused their engines to not work properly or fail? Having actual model railroaders test out trains before an actual run is mass produced, working out all potential bugs, could cause these Menards engines to, in the end, be some of the most reliable models being produced in O gauge. Many small issues in their rolling stock over the years have been refined and perfected, something I'm sure they'll do with their locomotives as well - which is the whole point behind this extensive "Beta" testing. I appreciate all the hard work everyone on this forum is doing providing Menards feedback and tweaking their Beta models to run better. When the Beta testing is over I hope to purchase a Menards unit for my layout, and hopefully they will eventually offer other locomotive models as well.

Forgive me, but I've only been back in the hobby for 2 years. I don't understand Menards labeling these as Beta. Beta to me, and this is coming from using Android operating system for 10 plus years , is there are a select amount of people who specifically sign up to be Beta testers for apps and operating systems before being released to the mass public. The Menards units seem to be available to anyone in the mass public that signs up for Menards email. Are there terms and conditions you sign off on for Menards beta testing?  With software testing There is usually a long list of terms that must be signed off on to be a Beta tester with many disclaimers stating that the beta tester takes full responsibility if any negative things happen to their hardware while beta testing software. Furthering my confusion compared to software or any other form of Beta testing , the tester isn't paying for a product. Sometimes you're doing it for free, and sometimes the beta tester gets paid.

I'm sorry if this comes across as a  put down, but no way am I paying $225 for a Beta testing unit. Just my opinion, but if I want an AA f3 Blue and yellow Santa Fe I'll take the chance on an LTI Lionel for the same or less money and Much better quality from a company thats been around 100 plus years. Knowing that I am purchasing a 30 plus year old unit, I'm aware that there will be a little work to put into it and upgrade if so desired. To me ,and again my opinion, those Menards units look pretty cheap to me. But,in fairness, I've never seen one out in the wild. Just going off pictures and videos.

My question being newer to the hobby, has Lionel, MTH, or any other manufacturers of trains released Beta testing units as common practice as well to willing praticpants? 

@Donnie Kennedy posted:

Forgive me, but I've only been back in the hobby for 2 years. I don't understand Menards labeling these as Beta. Beta to me, and this is coming from using Android operating system for 10 plus years , is there are a select amount of people who specifically sign up to be Beta testers for apps and operating systems before being released to the mass public. The Menards units seem to be available to anyone in the mass public that signs up for Menards email.

Furthering my confusion compared to software or any other form of Beta testing , the tester isn't paying for a product. Sometimes you're doing it for free, and sometimes the beta tester gets paid.

Exactly. Plus, this is labeled as "4.0", which (I would think) means there's been 3 previous releases. Typically, a product improves with each new "step". Am not seeing that here.

Ok, I'll get back to my 20-50 year old O scale and 80-90 year old Standard Gauge...they all run great! 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Donnie said it best, …..if you’re gonna beta test it, select a group and give it to them with the notion that corrections are going to be made in house, and keep the discussion of issues amongst the beta testers, THEN release the product into the wild when it’s perfected……but to pay to be the Guinea pig, seems utterly senseless, …..I’m guessing all the “whoo hoos’s!” and self congratulatory comments about being the first to snag up “ such a deal”  on the other thread were slightly premature?…..all of those cats will be the first ones condemning Menards for a failed product, but hey, ….that’s what they signed up for, …I mean, …paid for ……🙄

Pat

As a follow up from my post and videos from yesterday…

Returned my fried Beta unit to my local Menards this morning, refund in full (less shipping, but hey, it was worth an $8 gamble).

Menards made it right as I knew they would, hopefully they will resolve the problem and re-issue the dummy A units soon. It really did look sweet and when they do I will re-order another knowing what the risks are with purchasing such prototypes.

I have purchased several Menards products including rolling stock as well as their fantastic structures.  This is the first time I’ve had a problem and am happy to have another option in this great hobby.

@harmonyards posted:

Donnie said it best, …..if you’re gonna beta test it, select a group and give it to them with the notion that corrections are going to be made in house, and keep the discussion of issues amongst the beta testers, THEN release the product into the wild when it’s perfected……but to pay to be the Guinea pig, seems utterly senseless.

Agreed, and all the ones buying these to collect and hoard and not operate thinking they are going to be collectors items or turn around and sale for inflated prices (and there are ones that are doing this) gets Menards nowhere on their beta testing.

Brad

Just a quick note that if you use a bridge rectifier, you cannot tie the ground on the left side to the ground on the right side of the bridge. Just study the resulting schematic, one of the diodes is shorted out then, and why would people put in a fourth diode for some 50+ years if its just going to be shorted out? Kinda like one of those "reduced to the absurd" things they made you study. Would have to study it some if you do, but for sure you are not getting the full benefit of the bridge. Learned this the hard way doing something.

So in this case, if you are using a bridge, you cannot tie the ground of the LED circuit to the chassis.

A single diode rectifier is another case.

And people wonder why Menards is hesitant to post items on these forums. The crybabies in this thread (many of whom SHOULD know better) are a prime example why. Yeah, Menards screwed these BETA items up.  There's no evidence that they haven't offered to fix them, or offer refunds. In fact, as far as I can see, the only person who's bothered asking for a refund promptly got one. So what's the problem?

It's not like Lionel and MTH haven't put out products with serious issues from time to time. Smoke units mis-wired. Trucks and frames on $800 engines that crumble, without ever being replaced, repaired or refunded. You don't like it, you don't buy it, plain and simple. Especially for units clearly listed as "Beta".  Just don't come on here with the attitude "Oh, my, Menards should never put out anything ever again (to paraphrase on of the responses above)".

@Magicland posted:

And people wonder why Menards is hesitant to post items on these forums. The crybabies in this thread (many of whom SHOULD know better) are a prime example why. Yeah, Menards screwed these BETA items up.  There's no evidence that they haven't offered to fix them, or offer refunds. In fact, as far as I can see, the only person who's bothered asking for a refund promptly got one. So what's the problem?

It's not like Lionel and MTH haven't put out products with serious issues from time to time. Smoke units mis-wired. Trucks and frames on $800 engines that crumble, without ever being replaced, repaired or refunded. You don't like it, you don't buy it, plain and simple. Especially for units clearly listed as "Beta".  Just don't come on here with the attitude "Oh, my, Menards should never put out anything ever again (to paraphrase on of the responses above)".

And may I  add how many ,that comment here, actually own one off the Menards Beta units

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Agreeing with what @bigkid previously mentioned, that's what Beta means.  It has meant so, in wide and common usage, coming out of software for 40 years.  It meant so for version 1.0 here, and it clearly still means the same for version 4.0.  If you don't want any headaches don't buy a Beta version.

Mike

You are making the wholly and entirely unjustified assumption that Grandma and Grandpa are familiar with computer jargon and software producer methods.  "Wide and common usage" in the computer industry does translate into awareness on the part of people not involved with that industry, which is a group reasonably large in number.  This group not only won't know what Beta means, the number 4.0 will mean nothing to them, either.

Both comments above are spot on. Everyone chiming in and criticizing Menards for “Beta” units. Don’t want one, don’t buy one, don’t own one , don’t criticize the process. The negative and ignorant comments on here are enough to drive a man to drink.

Menards is doing great things for this hobby.

@Sullyman626 posted:

Both comments above are spot on. Everyone chiming in and criticizing Menards for “Beta” units. Don’t want one, don’t buy one, don’t own one , don’t criticize the process.

Or, just flip it on the for sale forum and don't mention the potential problems. 🤣

Exactly champ.

Its too bad most of you don't  know the actual  facts that are going on. The factory  in China actually  put the wrong Capacitor  in the DUMMY UNIT. What happened they put in a DC Capacitor  instead  of a AC Capacitor.  If you run your trains like Lionel  with a wall wart, there's no problem. If running on AC, it blows the Capacitor.  Simple fix is to just take the white wire off the frame from the Capacitor  and tape it up... case closed.. 

Moderation, please close this topic for further comment.  This has derailed. The important information is in the first post.