Menards Beta 4.0 quick review

So, are those 3 batteries charged while track power is applied?

Had this been in an eastern road name I would have been tempted. More so with the unpowered unit.

@Michael Hokkanen posted:

So, are those 3 batteries charged while track power is applied?

No, the batteries are in the remote. Has literally nothing to do with track power. This is direct competition and works very similar to any Lionchief engine. Does not operate under conventional, must have the original supplied remote, does not support bluetooth or other methods of control.

Thank goodness for the volume control.  Sounds like Menards has it ready to sell!

Lets hope a full production run is their next step.  Menards gets these trains out in front of the general public more than any train show or hobby shop has in decades.  Having a locomotive set for sale in the stores is the next big important step beyond the starter sets and supplies they sell now. 

@artfull dodger posted:

Lets hope a full production run is their next step.  Menards gets these trains out in front of the general public more than any train show or hobby shop has in decades.  Having a locomotive set for sale in the stores is the next big important step beyond the starter sets and supplies they sell now.

Agreed!

I haven't seen anything yet in the store nor any extra space allotment in that isle for things to come.

But I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

My set is scheduled to arrive today, but I likely won't be able to test run it until the weekend due to my work schedule this week.  I'll at least get them out of the box this evening though!

I'm interested to see if the plastic gears have been replaced with metal. The latest version 3 had a metal worm gear on the motor, but still had plastic worm wheel and idler gears on the truck.

Hopefully to be seen in Union Pacific, Burlington Northern, New York Central, Southern Pacific, etc. soon .  At these prices, they are bound to do well.

Video?

@RoyBoy posted:

I'm interested to see if the plastic gears have been replaced with metal. The latest version 3 had a metal work gear on the motor, but still had plastic worm wheel and idler gears on the truck.

That's what stops me, no plastic gears if I know up front!

There is an issue with the non- powered a unit.  It seems that at least some have an improper capacitor  please look at this link before running you unit Beta 4.0 CAPACITOR SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT Menards Santa Fe F3 Engine and Dummy O Scale - YouTube

I wonder if the factory substituted the wrong part, or if the design called for the wrong part. It seems that testing even one of the units at the factory would have caught this problem.

Here's another video with someone else having the same issue.  He also opens up the B-Unit and has it powered to show the smoking capacitor.

Smoking starts at around the 9 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Wu3u-DBBc

@BenLMaggi posted:

I wonder if the factory substituted the wrong part, or if the design called for the wrong part. It seems that testing even one of the units at the factory would have caught this problem.

My impression is, this engine was meant to compete head to head with Lionchief. They (the designers and possibly Menards) may have had a Lionchief set with a DC wall power pack.

The thing is, I saw people say use an un-polarized capacitor VS a polarized capacitor.

NO, the answer is this is just for LEDs in the dummy, there should be a rectifier or diode and the capacitor was there to reduce flicker.

Again, what was obvious to me, in the dummy, there is no evidence of trying to rectify or otherwise control and filter DC other than this capacitor. It's polarized because an un-polarized capacitor would do nothing for LED flicker, but then also requires at least one diode, if not more(full bridge or 4 diodes -and no, the LEDs as diodes don't count) to create DC, filter and store that, and then power the LEDs flicker free.

@Vernon Barry posted:

My impression is, this engine was meant to compete head to head with Lionchief. They may have had a Lionchief set with a DC wall power pack.

The thing is, I saw people say use an unpolarized capacitor VS a polarized capacitor.

NO, the answer is this is just for LEDs in the dummy, there should be a rectifier or diode and the capacitor was there to reduce flicker.

I was thinking the same thing.  Probably only tested with DC.  Needs a rectifier in series with the capacitor.

Given how many tutorials and discussions on a track powered set of LEDs and how to do it, I'm honestly surprised by this level of of a mistake, but that's why it's beta right?

It's pretty amazing this slipped through the production.  It does kinda' illustrate how far they're going to have to go to do quantity production of this stuff.

Guess I had better open up the latest dummy unit when it arrives on Saturday.

John

After watching this video review Iʻm glad these sold out before I could place an order, the capacitor issue yes - but the paint finish is an issue that canʻt be repaired.

I donʻt recall poor paint being mentioned in reviews of Menard rolling stock - but seeing this issue on their "flagship" product raises a red flag that taints all their products - for me.

Price is mentioned quite a bit regarding this set - as in "for just $225"  you get a AA diesel with remote control.

Yes thatʻs a good price, but Iʻm expecting delivery today of a new MTH 30-20801-1, F-3 ABA Santa Fe Red Warbonnet with Proto 3.0.  Yes I paid a more than twice as much,  but I have always subscribed to a personal theory that allows my to pay more for known quality over any "bargain" that might disappoint me.  Your YMMV 

@Vernon Barry posted:

Given how many tutorials and discussions on a track powered set of LEDs and how to do it, I'm honestly surprised by this level of of a mistake, but that's why it's beta right?

Its from China!

I am guessing everybody complaining about plastic gears refuse to own, operate or buy anything from the MPC and early LTI era then?   Lots of plastic gears in that era that operate fine as long as your not being ignorant with train length.  The miss step on the dummy unit electronics is a bit shocking at version 4.0 stage.  Makes me love my vintage stuff more and more.  AD

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's pretty amazing this slipped through the production.  It does kinda' illustrate how far they're going to have to go to do quantity production of this stuff.

It is pretty surprising. My guess is either they ran out/couldn't get the right capacitor and substituted something in its place without asking, or they decided to cheapen up, got a hot bargain from some place and figured what the heck.

Pretty soon, they'll have more sequels than the Friday the 13th movie.

Maybe they should name the loco "Jason!"

Mannyrock

@bigkid posted:

It is pretty surprising. My guess is either they ran out/couldn't get the right capacitor and substituted something in its place without asking, or they decided to cheapen up, got a hot bargain from some place and figured what the heck.

I suspect they tested with DC and never tumbled to the fact that AC on the tracks is "different" and you need at least a diode for that to work.

I would like to be clearer on the plastic gear of the discussion.

No, it's not just that it is a plastic gear. Specifically, the problem with many plastic gear systems is the gear splitting and cracking due to the interface between the gear and shaft which is often a press fit function and sometime augmented with splines or knurling of the shaft. The problem is, between the molded bore of the gear ID, and the sharpness of the splines or knurling along with root OD can contribute to this cracking of the gear- and that is valid regardless of gear material-even metal gears have been known to crack. Another factor at play is how large and how many teeth the gear has and thus the "meat" of the gear that forms the strength and resistance to cracking around the shaft. Far too often minimal teeth count and gear OD VS bore ID results in a situation far more prone to cracking and splitting.

The point is, my Beta 3.0 engine I received had the metal wheel falling off loose on the axles. This indicated manufacturing tolerance problems, somewhere between final bore size on the wheel (variable through the chrome plating thickness as a contribution to that error) and axle diameter and knurling. If there was that kind of manufacturing tolerance problems, then it's possible and maybe even likely to be present in the rest of the system where there are multiple knurling/splines on shafts and press fits.

Again, there are minimally 2 major splined/knurled press fit interfaces to 2 different plastic gears in this truck system and either one could be prone to splitting or cracking. There is the worm wheel gear interface to the motor and it's connection to the lay shaft, and then the lay shaft connection to the gear that drives the series of gears out to the wheels.

Last, there is then also the correct or incorrect brass material being used for bushings pins for the gears. Proper material has been a phosphor bronze, where as just raw brass generally is not the best bearing material. Based on color alone, it appears to be a potentially much faster wearing raw brass material rather than a bronze alloy.

Again, while my example is not a Beta 4.0, understanding if they addressed these specific areas and or any noted failures could be important.

@SteveH posted:

Here's another video with someone else having the same issue.  He also opens up the B-Unit and has it powered to show the smoking capacitor.

Smoking starts at around the 9 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Wu3u-DBBc

@SteveH posted:

I was thinking the same thing.  Probably only tested with DC.  Needs a rectifier in series with the capacitor.

This is confusing, there is a board visible in the front of the locomotive that appears to contain the LEDs for the headlight and marker light. What is on that board is not obvious, maybe someone with one of these can take a picture.  My guess is that board does not have a capacitor, and hence the one we see in the videos was added in the AC circuit area, without much thought.  I have one of these coming and it seems adding a diode in front of the capacitor, before operating, would save the capacitor.

@hokie71 posted:

I have one of these coming and it seems adding a diode in front of the capacitor, before operating, would save the capacitor.

Pretty sure that's all it would take.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I would like to be clearer on the plastic gear of the discussion.

No, it's not just that it is a plastic gear. Specifically, the problem with many plastic gear systems is the gear splitting and cracking due to the interface between the gear and shaft which is often a press fit function and sometime augmented with splines or knurling of the shaft. The problem is, between the molded bore of the gear ID, and the sharpness of the splines or knurling along with root OD can contribute to this cracking of the gear- and that is valid regardless of gear material-even metal gears have been known to crack. Another factor at play is how large and how many teeth the gear has and thus the "meat" of the gear that forms the strength and resistance to cracking around the shaft. Far too often minimal teeth count and gear OD VS bore ID results in a situation far more prone to cracking and splitting.

The point is, my Beta 3.0 engine I received had the metal wheel falling off loose on the axles. This indicated manufacturing tolerance problems, somewhere between final bore size on the wheel (variable through the chrome plating thickness as a contribution to that error) and axle diameter and knurling. If there was that kind of manufacturing tolerance problems, then it's possible and maybe even likely to be present in the rest of the system where there are multiple knurling/splines on shafts and press fits.

Again, there are minimally 2 major splined/knurled press fit interfaces to 2 different plastic gears in this truck system and either one could be prone to splitting or cracking. There is the worm wheel gear interface to the motor and it's connection to the lay shaft, and then the lay shaft connection to the gear that drives the series of gears out to the wheels.

Last, there is then also the correct or incorrect brass material being used for bushings pins for the gears. Proper material has been a phosphor bronze, where as just raw brass generally is not the best bearing material. Based on color alone, it appears to be a potentially much faster wearing raw brass material rather than a bronze alloy.

Again, while my example is not a Beta 4.0, understanding if they addressed these specific areas and or any noted failures could be important.

A VERY INTERESTING observation. So based on your critique, If I were to send my Beta units for replacement gears, I should ask for BRONZE gearing and possibly BRONZE bushings? [To get this repair once and done?]

@Vernon Barry posted:

The point is, my Beta 3.0 engine I received had the metal wheel falling off loose on the axles.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

If I were to send my Beta units for replacement gears, I should ask for BRONZE gearing and possibly BRONZE bushing.

Same thing happened to me.  Menards accepted my return and sent me a new engine with wheels actually on the axles!

Menards doesn't repair anything. They will send you a replacement engine if you ask them for a return authorization immediately after purchase.

IMHO, these engines are probably made by a low-end manufacturer having the worst quality of any engine company I can recall since returning to the hobby 30 years ago. They obviously can't afford an AC transformer.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

If I were to send my Beta units for replacement gears, I should ask for BRONZE gearing and possibly BRONZE bushings? [To get this repair once and done?]

You can ask. I guess hope springs eternal right?

I think there's zero chance that Menard's will do any repair, and certainly they won't be replacing plastic gears with bronze!

Menards has a come a long way and have a long way to go before I ever consider buying.  But, you have to crawl before you can walk, then run.  I'm seeing progress, and glad hopefully down the road we'll have more options for a train needs.

@superwarp1 posted:

Menards has a come a long way and have a long way to go before I ever consider buying.  But, you have to crawl before you can walk, then run.  I'm seeing progress, and glad hopefully down the road we'll have more options for a train needs.

Gary,

I see your point, and appreciate the thought that has gone into your comments.

I do have a related question coming out of them: Given the perception, whether justified (proven) or unjustified (unproven), that there are presently quality issues with their products do you have the same policy toward Lionel and MTH?  Do they also have a long way to go before you would consider buying from them, whether again or for the first time?

Mike

A friend of mine has one of these new blue sets.  I went to see it run at his place.  We opened them up.  I think that these will have a very short life span as the materials on the inside remind me of the infamously bad  1980s Bachmann G scale Big Haulers.

I was gonna say these remind me of the old Bachmann HO "train set" crap from the 70s and 80s...

Mark in Oregon

I suspect Menards may be in something of a bind. To produce this at a low price point to make whatever profit margin Menards is looking for, they likely found a contract manufacturer that gave a low enough bid (based on anticipated projected volumes) to make it feasible (and I don't know what the final price will be FWIW, the current low price may just be a low price to get people to buy it). There can be multiple issues here, likely the place had never made trains before or anything like this, so are learning; or to bid low they spent as little as possible ramping up for this, including training the people making them, could also be the supplier of the parts are not all that great,maybe they went low ball and they aren't so great. 

The thing with MTH and Lionel is they are dealing with a known quantity.MTH owns their factory, and whoever does Lionel's work likely has been working with them for a while, Menards is in a sense starting from scratch if I am right. It is also possible that based on their price point Menards finds out it isn't practical and they don't ever get to production (and again folks, this is pure hypotheticals , I know 0 about Menards or how they are doing this)

Having dealt with contract manufacturers in China, I think they (Menards) may be overwhelmed and understaffed.

@RixTrack posted:

Having dealt with contract manufacturers in China, I think they (Menards) may be overwhelmed and understaffed.

What evidence do you have for this claim?  Is it your contention that they're buying garbage, for resale to us, and can't figure out how not to do so because it's being sourced from China?  Or where to find the extra people to put on the project if they currently don't have enough?

I have news for you.  At least 90% of all the other things that they sell in their stores presently comes from China and is contracted.  In spite of this Menards generally has a good reputation among those of us who shop there.

Maybe it's only the train manufacturers in China that they're not good at managing?

Mike

@bigkid posted:

I suspect Menards may be in something of a bind. To produce this at a low price point to make whatever profit margin Menards is looking for

The thing with MTH and Lionel is they are dealing with a known quantity.MTH owns their factory, and whoever does Lionel's work likely has been working with them for a while,

Again, Menards is a big box hardware store/ home improvement center.

It is not a train manufacturer ,or hobby shop.

There is no profit margin. Menards is merely doing this because they want to. Imo, paying homage to when Lionel trains could be purchased a the local brick and motor store many decades ago.

At the same time. While dad's grabbing a load of 2"x4"s or a new bathroom faucet . There's something of interest for junior if he's tagging along.

It won't break the bank if dad wants to try the Menards train for his son, only to find out hes back on his cell phone or I pad a short time later.

Mth and Lionel make trains for a living. Menards probably sees more profit in the honey roasted peanuts by the checkout line than any of its train items combined.

I don't think Menards will ever be a "big" player in o Guage. Collectors item??...not so much either.

Just a very basic, affordable locomotive, with no parts or support ,outside of a return or exchange. When it wears out. You toss it, and buy another.