Menards F3 Won't Run

Fwiw, if you cant solve your problem, i would be interedted in purchasing the unit from you. My contact info is in my profile.

Nothing wrong with the circuit board that is visible.

Sounds like you had a track short with a thermal circuit breaker activating and thus it would power the engine, then the breaker trips, then it has to cool, then it trips again. I would check the obvious, nothing is derailed and shorting, the thumbtack style coupler activator is not drooping and shorting to the center rail. I've documented and reverse engineered as much as possible the board but since some of the chips have no markings (main processor radio receiver and EEPROM?) you definitely are not replacing those ever.

Again, more likely explanation, you had a power source kicking in and out under overload.

I'll check for a coupler short on the track.

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

I'll check for a coupler short on the track.

Thanks,

John

The thumbtacks on these do hang low and have been documented to short out on the center rail.

Again possible areas to cause a track short:

Pilots bent and drooping hitting center rail

Couplers bent and hitting center rail

Wiring/Eyelets from the power pickups at the trucks touching and shorting.

Something else inadvertently derailed somewhere else on the same track

Large red and white wires are the power leads from the pickup and truck ground, ensure they are not shorting to each other and or frame.

Oh, I forgot- this may or may not affect different models but my V2 had wheels loose and out of gauge on the axles. I had to take them apart, make my own crude knurling and press the wheels back on in gauge.

Again, my V2 had wheels barely held on by the sideframes, way, way, way, out of gauge. Take a gander at that lower wheel.

I put a square of electrical tape on the bottom of all my passenger car thumb tacks. Could do the same with this. At least to test it.  

Your wheel issue, maybe it is common as I have several Menards freight cars that have arrived perfectly packed, no damage, and have found axles and wheel completely out of the trucks, or half out of the trucks.  Maybe the Chinese wheel QA guy is out on vacation, or worse.

Thanks guys.  I am going to try all of this.  Always appreciate the wonderful help.

John

I won’t buy Menards rolling stock or engines….Accessory items are good

Well Vernon I appreciate your info on the wheels and axles.   Ill avoid any motive power offerings from that vendor.

My experience on their freight cars has been consistently bad.  Great product from the truck rivets upward.  Consistent problems from track rails up to the bottom of the car chassis.  Buying something you have to immediately return is not appealing to me.

At their price point you can always look at putting their car bodies on a decent chassis.

You could put a lighted car behind the loco. When the loco stops, see if the car lights go out.

QC on their trucks could (and should) be improved. At the price point, you can beat the detailing.

There is a quick fix and it has been discussed on several posts. Pick up a wheel puller from Timko Repair Depot, and a inexpensive digital caliper.

IIRC 26-27 mm is the correct gauge.

I understand that fixing the wheels and axles is an option.  But, fixing broken drawbars and truck side frames that don't hold the axles is just not worth the effort to me.  If you like doing that, then you have plenty to choose from.

Buying something defective doesn't make sense to me.  They very well may become the Packard Bell of trains.

THESE ARE AND WERE ADVERTISED AS BETA versions.

So many thanks to those who took the risk and purchased them.

I appreciate your monetary sacrifice for the rest of us!

Alan, Folks like to b___h because it makes them feel good and most likely to simply down play an up and coming competitor to the big guys.  I simply don't pay any attention to their posts as there is nothing positive about them.  Always whining about something.

No one is forcing you to buy anything - so why complain continuously about the same issues over and over again.   So many folks, so many broken records.

Indeed Menards posted these were Beta products and as such you took a gamble on it.  But in the long run these beta releases help us all as the bugs have been identified and will help produce a more sound product when a production run is released.

Sorry to all those above.  I wasn't clear in my post.  And I certainly didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings on this forum.  I apologize to anyone above who got offended or for not being sensitive to others feelings.

I don't have any Menards motive units.  I was simply surprised to see the same area (wheel/axle)  of problem show up in their motorized units.  My only experience is 4 for 4 defective rolling stock units (all different cars-roadnames) that I bought through their internet store.  They were going be rewards for good school work every nine weeks for my grandson.

Now that they are producing motorized units, I was hoping the quality curve was heading in the positive direction.

As I mentioned before, which some chose to ignore, the cars are very nice once you get above the truck rivet/screw device.

I'm not advocating for, or in favor of any other manufacturer.

Raise the price 25% and they're still a bargain.

I'm somewhat surprised that nobody has referenced @Menards in this thread so that they'll see it, so here goes.  Might lead to a resolution, might not.

Full disclosure - I own a few Menards cars and accessories, but didn't buy the engine, and won't until some of the issues are stabilized. I also buy a lot of other stuff at Menards and have a generally positive impression of the company.

My thoughts...

When buying a beta version, one needs to temper their expectations.  OTOH, it's reasonable to have a basic expectation that a train will run and that the wheels won't fall off, and that the manufacturer will make it right if it fails.

If the same issues continue - thinking primarily of the trucks on rolling stock - it's reasonable to expect that the manufacturer will take steps to rectify the problem.  OTOH, if well-known issues continue, don't buy the item and then complain about it.

I'm amused by the people who try to re-sell NIB Menards items at shows.  I don't mind paying $20 for a car if I need to make a minor tweak to the trucks, but won't pay a premium price for the privilege.  And $20 for a car if the trucks need to be replaced bumps the total up to $45-50 - there are better options at that price.

OK so here is what I have done so far:

1.  Checked for coupler shorts to track - none

2.  Checked for short between center rollers and chassis (ground) - none

3.  Double checked hot terminal at pin connector on PCB and ground terminal at pin connector on PCB.  This was easy because there are two 18V PCB input terminals in parallel so with connector attached to PCB one can use the empty connector next to it to check for shorts.  No short between pins.

4.  Apply AC hot to center rail and AC ground to outer rail on track - unit still shuts down after a few seconds.  Wait a few seconds.  Repeat - same thing.  Varied voltage to test.  Made no difference.

5.  Remove unit from track , Apply AC hot to center roller and AC ground to chassis - unit shuts down after a few seconds. Wait a few seconds.  Repeat - same thing.  Varied voltage to test.  Made no difference.

6.  Since there are two 18V inputs in parallel on the PCB, I applied voltage to unit with AC test leads connected to the empty input terminal to measure voltage before and after.  There was AC voltage when I turned up the transformer and there was still the same amount of AC voltage present on the PCB input when it shut down.  I would think that would verify that the problem is on the PCB, but maybe not.

7.  Also pulled out the red plug from the PCB that goes to the motors in case they were shorted.  Same issue.

What do you think?

John

EDIT:  The bridge rectifier is an SEP Electronics KBL410

https://www.amazon.com/10-Piec...tronic/dp/B079KDNJXM

The symptoms are that something is overheating, going into thermal shutdown, and then cooling and turning back on again. The 2 candidates for that are the switching regulator IC or the linear regulator IC but replacing them is not the fix. Again, this is where the electrical common sense has to kick in, they are being overloaded by something else drawing too much current on the regulated voltage side of this. If that is the case, then candidates are the Motor Drive H-bridge chip, the audio amp, the radio section, or an LED since those too would be on the regulated DC output. It's unlikely to be the audio amp or the main processor since we are getting sounds. That leaves 2 other candidates, you blew the H-bridge motor control and knowing it's limits, that's not impossible, or the other possible answer, an LED or maybe the switch shorted and is causing an overload of the logic source voltage.

What it is not is the bridge rectifier. If that is going into thermal- I would hope that would be painfully obvious and likely lead to smoke.

So let's eliminate the common sense items like LEDs first. They are the Yellow, White, and Black plugs. If you unplug them and give it power, do the sounds stay running indicating we have steady power? Can you then activate the drive motor?

r.

Now inspect the H-bridge chip with a magnifier and look for possible damage. It is next to the rectifier on the big capacitor end of the board.

Possibly unplug the red motor wire leads and see if the board stay powered. Sorry, wrong picture was posted now edited. Should say Motor beside the red socket and is right there by the big capacitors.

The motor driver is somewhat limited to 3.5A, it is just a A4950T https://www.allegromicro.com/~...A4950-Datasheet.ashx

@Vernon Barry posted:

The symptoms are that something is overheating, going into thermal shutdown, and then cooling and turning back on again. The 2 candidates for that are the switching regulator IC or the linear regulator IC but replacing them is not the fix. Again, this is where the electrical common sense has to kick in, they are being overloaded by something else drawing too much current on the regulated voltage side of this. If that is the case, then candidates are the Motor Drive H-bridge chip, the audio amp, the radio section, or an LED since those too would be on the regulated DC output. It's unlikely to be the audio amp or the main processor since we are getting sounds. That leaves 2 other candidates, you blew the H-bridge motor control and knowing it's limits, that's not impossible, or the other possible answer, an LED or maybe the switch shorted and is causing an overload of the logic source voltage.

What it is not is the bridge rectifier. If that is going into thermal- I would hope that would be painfully obvious and likely lead to smoke.

So let's eliminate the common sense items like LEDs first. They are the Yellow, White, and Black plugs. If you unplug them and give it power, do the sounds stay running indicating we have steady power? Can you then activate the drive motor?

[No change with those unplugged.]

r.

Now inspect the H-bridge chip with a magnifier and look for possible damage. It is next to the rectifier on the big capacitor end of the board.

Possibly unplug the red motor wire leads and see if the board stay powered. Sorry, wrong picture was posted now edited. Should say Motor beside the red socket and is right there by the big capacitors.

[Had already tried that.  Tried it again.  No change.]

The motor driver is somewhat limited to 3.5A, it is just a A4950T https://www.allegromicro.com/~...A4950-Datasheet.ashx

See notations within Quoted Section.

H-Bridge photos.  Top and bottom.

There does look like there is a lot of flux around the solder joints for the small capacitor next to the motor input.

EDIT: Cleaned flux off -  no difference

Thanks Vernon

John

That last picture and the note about the capacitor- no that is the speaker output section in the logic area, not the motor control. Yes, they used 2 red plugs on the board, one for speaker, one for motor. My boards all had flux around the solder joints of that capacitor as well. I don't think that is the issue but you never know without hands on.

I guess the other thing is, what is getting hot? I would think something would have to be. Not saying burn yourself, but something has to be getting warm I would think for the symptom you are getting.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I guess the other thing is, what is getting hot? I would think something would have to be. Not saying burn yourself, but something has to be getting warm I would think for the symptom you are getting.

I don't feel anything hot.  It literally shuts down within seconds.  Wait a few seconds - repeat.  Lights momentarily come on.  Speaker sounds start then it quits.  Large capacitor?

John

EDIT:  What about that solder joint on the bottom of the PCB for the H-Bridge?  It's kind of lumpy.  On the bottom of my Version 2 it is smooth all the way across.

No, the large capacitor failure would short out the track and heat up the main bridge rectifier. You simply would not have power and again, lots of heat and shorting the transformer.

What if you unplug the speaker? Just trying to find out what is loading this down? Or maybe the processor just keeps going through reset.

The solder joint on the H bridge is just thermal, and only would affect when that chip was running hot. Excess solder doesn't = better

@Vernon Barry posted:

No, the large capacitor failure would short out the track and heat up the main bridge rectifier. You simply would not have power and again, lots of heat and shorting the transformer.

What if you unplug the speaker? Just trying to find out what is loading this down? Or maybe the processor just keeps going through reset.

Thanks for helping me out Vernon.  I had unplugged the speaker as well.  Even with nothing except the power plug in it does the same thing.

John

John, out of curiosity, what voltage are you supplying to the locomotive?

@SteveH posted:

John, out of curiosity, what voltage are you supplying to the locomotive?

Anywhere from 7 volts to 14.   Those who own these have found that you can vary the input voltage to get better control with the remote throttle especially version 1.

When you apply even minimal voltage the engine sounds and the lights come on even with the remote off.  When you turn on the remote the sounds change depending upon where the volume control on the remote is set.

This version 3 that I am dealing with cuts out after a second or so no matter what input voltage you apply with the remote on or off.  Version 1 also had jack rabbit starts and stops which were only partially resolved by wiring the motors in series (which also cut the speed considerably).  Version 2 or 3 remotes solved the problem with the horn on version 1.  You can use any version remote with any version engine.

John

I have 2 versions of the F3. Beta 1 and I believe the 2.5 or 3 version. Lost track. lol

One of my remotes works both engines with no issue. The other remote will operate the engine it came with but has issues operating the other engine. Wondering if it's a signal loss issue?

It might not be too late to get a replacement loco. Have you contacted Menards via email?

They were very good about replacing my 3.5 when it conked out, but that was a month or two ago.

My symptoms were different than yours, but possibly caused by the same/similar board failure.

Mine ran fine one day and then the next day it would not run at all. I disconnected the motors and hooked up an incandescent light to the board's motor outputs. The light lit when commanding the loco to run forward or backward, showing me that the logic was good. But the motors did not turn when hooking them to the board. The motors were OK when running them from a separate power supply.

Anyway, you might contact them. Ray was the fellow I communicated with. He was very helpful.

@RoyBoy posted:

It might not be too late to get a replacement loco. Have you contacted Menards via email?

They were very good about replacing my 3.5 when it conked out, but that was a month or two ago.

My symptoms were different than yours, but possibly caused by the same/similar board failure.

Mine ran fine one day and then the next day it would not run at all. I disconnected the motors and hooked up an incandescent light to the board's motor outputs. The light lit when commanding the loco to run forward or backward, showing me that the logic was good. But the motors did not turn when hooking them to the board. The motors were OK when running them from a separate power supply.

Anyway, you might contact them. Ray was the fellow I communicated with. He was very helpful.

Thanks Roy,

I may do that after all.  Just trying to see if I could fix it with some help first. 

John

@RJ Shier posted:

I have 2 versions of the F3. Beta 1 and I believe the 2.5 or 3 version. Lost track. lol

One of my remotes works both engines with no issue. The other remote will operate the engine it came with but has issues operating the other engine. Wondering if it's a signal loss issue?

What is interesting is that the version 2 and version 3 remotes solve the problem with version 1's short horn honk.  If you use either version 2 or 3 remote on a version 1 the horn sounds normal (sustained).

John

@RoyBoy posted:

It might not be too late to get a replacement loco. Have you contacted Menards via email?

They were very good about replacing my 3.5 when it conked out, but that was a month or two ago.

My symptoms were different than yours, but possibly caused by the same/similar board failure.

Mine ran fine one day and then the next day it would not run at all. I disconnected the motors and hooked up an incandescent light to the board's motor outputs. The light lit when commanding the loco to run forward or backward, showing me that the logic was good. But the motors did not turn when hooking them to the board. The motors were OK when running them from a separate power supply.

Anyway, you might contact them. Ray was the fellow I communicated with. He was very helpful.

Per the data sheet of the motor driver H-bridge. https://www.allegromicro.com/%...A4950-Datasheet.ashx

"Full-Bridge DMOS PWM Motor DriverA4950
FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION
Overcurrent Protection
A current monitor will protect the IC from damage due to output
shorts. If a short is detected, the IC will latch the fault and disable
the outputs. The fault latch can only be cleared by coming out of
Low Power Standby mode or by cycling the power to VBB. Dur-
ing OCP events, Absolute Maximum Ratings may be exceeded
for a short period of time before the device latches.

Rs is RS1, R110= 0.11 Ohms

I measured Vref and it is exactly 3.5V

3.5/1.1=3.182A I tripMAX

So, if your motor(s) draw higher than 3.2A then you might invoke "the IC will latch the fault and disable the outputs".

Possibly not a board failure, but could be a motor failure -example oil contaminated commutator clumping the slots with brush material causing high amperage.

@Allegheny posted:

1. Alan, Folks like to b___h because it makes them feel good and most likely to simply down play an up and coming competitor to the big guys.  I simply don't pay any attention to their posts as there is nothing positive about them.  Always whining about something.

2. No one is forcing you to buy anything - so why complain continuously about the same issues over and over again.   So many folks, so many broken records.

3. Indeed Menards posted these were Beta products and as such you took a gamble on it.  But in the long run these beta releases help us all as the bugs have been identified and will help produce a more sound product when a production run is released.

1. That's a completely unfair take on what was said. People expressing their opinions about a certain product/brand is no different from you expressing your opinion about others' opinions.

2. Let's first look at the never-ending stream of QC posts about Lionel stuff; plus, no one is forcing you to read these posts. "...so many broken records..."

"... when a production run is released".  Maybe that should say " ...(if) a production run is released ".

Mark in Oregon

@Vernon Barry posted:

Per the data sheet of the motor driver H-bridge. https://www.allegromicro.com/%...A4950-Datasheet.ashx

"Full-Bridge DMOS PWM Motor DriverA4950
FUNCTIONAL DESCRIPTION
Overcurrent Protection
A current monitor will protect the IC from damage due to output
shorts. If a short is detected, the IC will latch the fault and disable
the outputs. The fault latch can only be cleared by coming out of
Low Power Standby mode or by cycling the power to VBB. Dur-
ing OCP events, Absolute Maximum Ratings may be exceeded
for a short period of time before the device latches.

Rs is RS1, R110= 0.11 Ohms

I measured Vref and it is exactly 3.5V

3.5/1.1=3.182A I tripMAX

So, if your motor(s) draw higher than 3.2A then you might invoke "the IC will latch the fault and disable the outputs".

Possibly not a board failure, but could be a motor failure -example oil contaminated commutator clumping the slots with brush material causing high amperage.

The only way for me to test that would be for me to cut the leads to the motors and try them one at a time since they are in parallel.   Not sure if that is a good idea though because there was something I recall in some previous posts about replacing those motors with Mabuchi flywheel motors and the consensus was you can't.

John

Wouldn’t it be prudent to let Menard’s have it back to do some research on the failure. After all it’s a Beta model. Maybe they’ll comp you.

It's not that you cannot. I made the video where that add flywheels "fix" for coasting does not fix a V1 because the firmware logic brakes the motor output when moving to neutral command. https://youtu.be/mugHjvF-k6I

In an actual truck with load, the flywheel motor just basically stops anyway- again, V1 firmware. V2 and higher firmware specifically invoked coasting rather than brake.

I think they just made a mistake where Low Low made sense in the firmware code, but in reality the driver brakes the motor as an unintended action. This made the logic easy for forward and reverse from that state, just bring the desired direction high. Again, easy mistake to make on a V1 beta firmware (IMO). And again, V2 and higher kind of added momentum where they slowly lower the PWM towards zero.

@Craftech posted:

The only way for me to test that would be for me to cut the leads to the motors and try them one at a time since they are in parallel.   Not sure if that is a good idea though because there was something I recall in some previous posts about replacing those motors with Mabuchi flywheel motors and the consensus was you can't.

John

Disconnecting one of the motors (wired in parallel) would reduce the total impedance (load) on the motor driver circuit.  The current drawn by one good motor should be less than 1.6A (dividing Vernon's calculation in half).