most accurate F3s or F7s?

pennsynut - The difference between the traditional Lionel postwar (and recent clones) and later F3s and a 'scale' F3s from them or other manufacturers is the height and level of detail. Lionel's early models were lower overall by a half inch or so which gave them the squinty-eyed  look that we fondly remember. A more scale-detailed F unit will have a smaller pilot and be prototypical to whether it was a passenger diesel or freight unit. Williams put a scale appearing pilot on their F3s but the overall size is similar to Lionel's PW F3.

MTH, Weaver, and K-Line began to produce scale sized F units back in the 1990s that were full sized but the pilot was large and similar to Lionel's.

Most of the recent F3s are very well-detailed and present as a fine model. Especially the F2/3's from Atlas.

Here you can see the difference between Lionel's F3s - PW 2343 on right and the scale No 18 on the left.

For 3-Rail SCALE modelers, the absolute BEST "F" units are from Atlas O. Atlas purchased the line of 2-Rail Scale "F" units from the P&D Hobby Shop, some years ago, and the Atlas "F" unit models are , thus the best available, for 3-Rail SCALE modelers.

Thanks Sam.  I have read that from you and others on the 3 rail forum.  I guess I am looking for a scale Lionel version and I fear that the catalog descriptions because of different versions and remakes might be confusing to me.  Thus my post.  BTW, your posts are interesting and photos great.

The best IMO is the f7's by Lionel with Legacy. Incredible sounds and operation, you will not be sorry.

Thanks Hot Water.  

Lionel uses catch phrases such as 'conventional classics' and 'postwar celebration' to indicate the traditional F units. A catalog description should say 'O-scale' or similar...

I agree with HW statements, the Atlas F's are excellent.

I think most would agree here ('cept for Dave! ) that the Atlas is indeed a very fine model. They run and sound great too. Lionel's Legacy models may have them beat in the sounds dept but for appearance and detail, the Atlas are top notch!

I do agree for attention to detail and paint schemes AtlasO are very, very good but take a look at the newer Lionel scale units the detail and paint is top notch and is very close to the AtlasO units. The addition of legacy just pushes them over the top IMO.  

Which ever one you buy you can't go wrong with either. 

Besides the "attention to detail", has anyone actually MEASURED either the Lionel or MTH scale size "F" units and compared both to prototype dimensional specifications?

Also, just my opinion but, the darned "F" units are simply roots blown 16 cylinder equipped EMD diesel engine units, which shouldn't sound any different than an EMD GP7/GP9/GP18, so with an appropriate horn, I don't feel the sounds are all that big of a deal. Especially if the model is NOT dimensionally correct in the first place.

The RailKing F3 version is 8 scale feet (2") too short, plus the detail is not there, not sure about the premier F3s or any Lionel F3s, but if their F3 is as good as their GP9 I have then it's got to be on par with Atlas.  I have an Atlas GP9 and the Lionel unit can hold it's own against it.

A scale F3 is the only diesel remaining I'd like to add to my fleet, so if anyone can give us a comparison of a scale Lionel F3 and an Atlas F3 I'd be happy.

Hot Water and Bob D:  Your questions are also what I wanted answered.

I just bought the MTH ps3 PRR F7 ABA off the forum here.  I also have the Lionel TMCC version as well.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses I suppose.  I have seen the Atlas F3 and agree they are very nice.

Quick measurement, each are 12 inches nose to back edge of the body, each about 3 and 5/8 inches high.  I don't know the 1:1 dimensions.

Here are some quick shots I just took, sorry they lack depth of field.  

MTH left, Lionel right:

MTH:

Lionel:

Bob, 

Keep in mind that you can still buy F-unit shells from P&D hobby and then find a mechanism you like to power the loco. I would think that might be ideal for a guy like you who can do beautiful paint and decalling work.

Ive done quite a bit of painting in N scale, so I'm tempted to try this myself.

Jeff C

Jeff,

Thanks for the compliment.  P&D is probably the way to go, but I was hoping Atlas would have done a Seaboard F3 by now so I wouldn't have to paint and decal .

Once my other projects are finished the F3 may be next.

I don't happen to have a 1:1 to take measurements off of so I will have to demure to the multitude of drawing found in several model railroading magazines as accurate.  That makes the new tooling Lionel F3 shells spot on.  Their fuel tanks and pilots are also more accurate than Atlas's.  Lionel's paint tends not to be as accurate as Atlas's in some cases.  Not sure if it intentional or not in the errors.   The Lionel truck side frames are not quite as nice as the Atlas's and there is no contest on the stirrups.

For the Lionel F7s the side louver accuracy and the area behind the grillwork is lacking detail so they are definitely down a notch from the F3s but other than that very accurate.

There are some dimensions here to go off of.

I'm going with Atlas....great body shell and trucks that don't look too small under the locomotive....at least the best I've seen yet.   For EMD V16 567 sound, I like MTH P2, especially notch 5&6 !

No question about it - sound is a secondary feature for those of us who want scale dimensions and detailing on their F-units.  Atlas will always outperform Lionel and MTH in fidelity to railroad-specific detail, and sells individual units, rather than A-B-A sets with additional separate-sale boosters.  It appears that 3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot will outperform Atlas in this respect.  Also, since Atlas has decided to go chronologically (and really slowly) through the evolution of post-war EMD F-units, I may get to operate late-model F3's - "F5's" -but, at their pace, I may be too old to lift a Santa Fe 300-Class bobtail onto my layout by the time Atlas finally manufactures the late F7 units.

However . . . it is irritating to me that the TMCC sound system - which is the only one Lionel will license to other manufacturers - only recreates Idle, Run-2, Run-3, and Run-4.  I once suggested that Lionel change these 4 settings to those most used by prototype Engineers: Idle, Run-3, Run-5, and Run-8.  Run-4 at maximum is better than nothing, and we should be grateful that Lionel does license TMCC. And most buyers of Lionel diesels don't know the difference or don't care. Still, this is a classic example of failure to consult those with first-hand knowledge during the design of the product.

Even though MTH did a complete retooling of their EMD 2-Axle Blomberg truck, which is dimensionally VERY close to pro type, I still prefer the overall accuracy of the Atlas O "F" unit models. 

As a kid who CRAVED having a Lionel Santa Fe, and then getting one when I was 13, how it looked—with the squinty windshield—was the way F's were supposed to look. That was until I got back into trains in '95, starting doing new research and found that this original version was sort of imaginary and no longer satisfied me. I now have the new Lionel F3 Santa Fe and the MTH DAP Norfolk Southern F7. I love them both, but since I run conventionally only at this time, find that the MTH runs much, much better than Lionel's. I also had a strange problem with Lionel's overgrown wheel flanges. They were so high that the second booster was derailing over Ross switches. I had to remove the axles and grind the flanges down to the size of 3rd Rail/MTH's. Lionel's response was "they don't guarantee their products on other's rails". Bad answer!

As a result whether their fidelity is better or worse than competition I will buy MTH. I haven't had much luck with Atlas' running either. My SD-35 has had numerous operational problems, and is much harder to disassemble to fix than MTH's. I am a bit skittish about buying additional Atlas engines. They look great, but could be shelf-queens.

Here they are together. They both look wonderful! But because of how the Santa Fe runs with batteries, it's not out of the box yet and the MTH has been running on my new railroad for months without a hitch. I like the Lionel window framing.

I still like my MTH F7's.  They look sharp.  I think I'll keep 'em.  Matt

And that, to me, is the single saddest and most annoying part of O Scale/Guage model railroading.   And MTH still does it to some lesser extent although their HO involvement has shown the folly of it.  No one in HO or N or any other scale has that attitude.  It's all about them, not the hobby.

To me the new MTH Blomberg is an improvement, but still not exactly right.  At least not right the way an Athearn Blomberg looks right in HO scale!  Seems O gauge is cursed with undersized truck side frames for a large number of models. Glad the MTH UP GTEL 8500 is NOT one of 'em !

How recent is that set of Lionel F units that had to have their wheel flanges turned down? I thought Lionel supposedly had that fixed after all the problems they had with the SD units and U-Boats when they changed the trucks. I remember I had a set of U-boats that had flanges so deep they bounced going through Lionel tubular switches. CSX Al has a service to turn down the flanges, but I had a 3-unit set and that was going to get expensive. I wound up selling them - I do mostly steam anyway.  

I did recently buy a set of MTH F units and, while I haven't done any measurements or compared the detailing to prototype photos, I'm very pleased with appearance and operation. 

While the nose is not as accutrate than either mTh/Lionel and atlas o, due to their price and a bunch of details and accurate painting, the williams model could be something of a looker too! 

I have a set of the Lionel UP F-3's that Joe F. 2R'd for me. The shell and paint job are very accurate in comparing to all my UP diesel books. I like the sideframes although the stirrup step will have to be removed and added to the shell. But, overall it's the best or at least a tie with the Atlas. I have a set of Atlas F-3's coming whenever the 2R's make it to the States and can then do a direct comparison. 

The paint on the Lionel is superb and that's what I was going for as I can't paint like that. I actually think I'll be pulling the Lionel drives out and putting in someones custom drives as I'm that happy with the shell. \

I'll wait to see what the Atlas look like but from what I've seen on their website I don't think they can improve on the Lionel shell. 

Butch

up148:  From your post can I safely assume that you measured the dimensions of the Lionel F3s and that they are fairly accurate?  Before you 2 railed the Lionel F3s had you run them in 3 rail?  If so, were they good pullers?  The reason I ask is that on another thread there was some critique of the pulling power of F3s on grades with several cars and dummy F units in tow.  Thank you and all for your posts.  F units are my favorite diesel power.

up148,

That is exactly what I do.  I'm working on PD Hobby GP9 drives now.  I tried using Atlas 2-rail drives but you have to buy entire locomotives as parts are made of unobtanium.

I tried the 2-railing thing with the Lionel drives and the electrical pickup was the most difficult part to make reliable.  The 2003-4 units were difficult - this included the UP units, but it got easier until the Legacy units showed up.  Then it got hard again and now with Lionel reintroducing the blind axles again (Grrrrrrrr) now really difficult.

One of these days I really need to sell all these drives I have lying around.

was that interior the standard Williams interior. If it is, it's impressive. If you did it yourself, it's even more impressive. When I was 13 I put my own interior in my Lionel 2343 Santa Fe. It probably destroyed its collector's value, but that engine cried for an interior. It didn't look anything like the Williams engine.

Before you 2 railed the Lionel F3s had you run them in 3 rail?  If so, were they good pullers?  The reason I ask is that on another thread there was some critique of the pulling power of F3s on grades with several cars and dummy F units in tow. 

Dimensionally it checked out fine and that's one reason I went forward with the two railing. I've never been a 3Rer so I couldn't answer about pulling power, but I was told by Joe (he test ran it on his layout) that it really needed a powered ABA set to pull 30-40 cars.

Butch

For those of you with Atlas or Lionel 3 rail F units, how are you fixing the pilots and attaching Kadees?

For EMD V16 567 sound, I like MTH P2, especially notch 5&6 !

I am very fond of my MTH F units and will be getting another set of F7s from the latest catalog.  The MTH Proto 2 and Proto 3 EMD 567 sounds are very good indeed, from Run 1 to Run 8!

Very nice prototypical start on that freight train, Jerry.  I do not imagine there will be any broken drawbars lying in rust next to the track, with your name on them in chalk.

Tom,

Correct, except we do have a few broken coupler drawbars laying on the ground over in the freight yard.

Whatever engines run the best are your favorites... Atlas/MTH/Lionel? That's why Baskin Robbins has 36 flavors.

Hi Ted,

You ask about affixing the pilot - My only experience with the Atlas was our GM&O F2/3 that included the optional scale pilot with attached Kadee. I only had to cut the coupler box from the frame in order to install the scale pilot/coupler assemble which easily screwed on after that.

Several years ago I glued the pilot onto several Williams F3s and E7s to eliminate the gap but didn't go with a scale coupler at the time.

Love those Great Northerns!  The scenery ain't too shabby either....

I thought they had 31 flavors?

Sam

Thanks for the info.  It is good to know that Atlas makes going to fixed pilots easy on their F units.

I really like the detail of my Atlas SR F2/F3 Phase 1 diesels, and I find the RS4 sounds very good.  I went with Atlas initially because it is the only manufacturer that sells A- and B- units with power and sound, and I've been very happy with them.

I wish Atlas would release a PRR version of their F3 Phase 2 (early).  The PRR had only 3 ABBA sets (plus a couple extra Bs) of the high, flat top radiator fan F3s so I'm concerned Atlas may not make them.