Mr. Muffin -Forming a modular group with LCCA Modules- Magnificent Modular Railroad

It's my opinion, after being involved with various modular RR groups, that the LCCA modules in their minimum dimension, are too narrow for scenery or any kind of intricate trackwork.  To overcome this limitation, I've seen clubs add another portable bench behind the module to hold the scenery while the module itself supports a two-track right-of-way.

It would be interesting to see a group begin with the LCCA specification, and do something wtih "FreeMo."

One general criticism that I have of modular displays that are typically set up as a rectangular "open doughnut": too often the trains are just run endlessly in circles.  Except for some young children, the viewing public quickly gets bored and walks away.  Something like a "star" pattern where arms of the display radiate out from a central dispatching hub would be better, particularly if each "arm" had a distinctive scenic treatment.  Think "from the farm to the city," etc.  This could economically be accomplished by placing a view block, or "skyboard' down the center of the module, with different scenery and a right-of-way on each side.  Again, this would be easier to fit if the module were a little wider.

Also, having some modules that support reversing loops, a "T" module leading to a yard, working engine terminal, crossovers between mainlines, a mountain branch, etc., could showcase prototypical operation and potentially win converts to the hobby.  And for those who dare, hand-held remote control and today's hi-tech locos tamed by speed control create a legitimate opportunity to let the public run the trains!  My $.02.

The Lionel/LCCA module system is great for beginners and the more casual model railroaders, especially in areas without existing clubs.  As it grows, the club can work on expanding scenery and complexity of layout plans.

Mr. Muffin is doing a great job of promoting the hobby with this project.

Andy

@Ted S posted:

Ted,

I am concerned that I have neglected the OGR Forums.  For this I am sorry.

I believe that almost all of the concerns that you have expressed here have been overcome in the last couple of years.  They have been over come in a variety of different ways.

"Too narrow" ... The modules that you build do not need to be 30x45".  They need to conform to multiples of the standard width.
- All of my straights are 45" wide.
  - However, almost half of my modules are 36" deep.  I did this to accommodate longer passenger sidings.  I am 42 years old and in good physical health.  The added weight is not something that I am concerned with.
  - TCA Great Lakes Division's Mod Squad, have modules that are 90" long.
  - I have module segments that are a 6 modules set. This allows me to have an inline yard that is four tracks wide.  I can bring trains from the inner mainline to the outer mainline and vice versa.
- Chicago, KCRR, Conductors, and Mod Squad all have modules segments that are 60+ inches deep, with complete ovals on them.  Big trains on the mainlines.  Small trains everywhere else

"open doughnut" ...  Yeah.  Trains tend to run in circles.  However, this does not mean that they need to.  During the FEB 2024 World's Greatest Hobby on Tour.  The Kids Creek Railroad, The Modular Railroad Partners, The Conductors of Indiana Group, and the Mod Squad all got together and built a massive layout that was filled with intricate track work that sprawled into the center of the U-Shaped layout.  This layout was so compact, we needed to install a lift gate in the center of the railroad.  In total, we had three lift gates!

"FreeMo." ... A solution for this has been engineered.  The plan would require the replacement of a standard set of O72/O84 corners with a specialty corner set.  Off of that specialty corner you can go FreeMo.  My thought is that one could build two sets of specialty corners and connect two BIG layouts together with true FreeMo happening in between.

"star" ... This has not really been done because the clubs that have been growing this sector of the hobby for the last decade enjoy building circles, because we are promoting the hobby to families and children.  Kids just like to run trains in circles while at train shows.  Kids can enjoy switching problems.  However, if the trains are not running, families just walk by and go... "I hope they get things fixed".  To keep the kids entertained while other kids are running he trains, many of the groups have push buttons on the outside of the railroad. These push buttons control operating accessories.

"skyboard' ... The Golden State Toy Train Operators do this.  It looks good.  I approve   I have not done it on the Kids Creek Railroad because I like to see the entire railroad from wherever I am standing.

"reversing loops, a "T"" ... Can absolutely be done using one or two 45" modules. The Mod Squad has a single module that is 90-inches and they call it the  "puzzle". 

So yeah.  There is a lot going on within this sector of the hobby.  Most of it gets shared to the "LCCA/ Lionel FasTrack Modular Railroad" Group on Facebook.  I am really sorry have not been sharing this with OGR. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/703120803539426/

@hokie71 posted:

This is a great idea

This is 100% amazing.  I am the LCCA's FasTrack Modular Railroad (FMRR) Coordinator and a LCCA Board Member.  For the last seven or eight years I have been helping individuals build modular railroads and modules, all around the country.  This is an amazing opportunity. 

When I talked to Mr. Muffin about this project two weeks ago, I got excited!  Mr Muffin has a unique megaphone within the railroad hobby and I look forward to helping him grow his club and build modules.

... I have a fair amount of experience building modules.   I think I have built over 100 FMRR modules at this point.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/703120803539426/ 

This link Facebook Group is where all of the other FMRR Groups tend to post and hang out.

Some of the points listed as challenges can be answered this way; with modular railroad groups relying on individual members storing and transporting their module, the 30 x 45 dimension works out to a full load for the average SUV. I presently find myself shopping for a new car with a 31" high rear hatch as I write this. The modules need to ride on edge in most cases to protect the scenery area.

As for the comment about many displays being just an oval of track, we need to remember that, at most venues, we are allocated space. So point to point or just about any other variation is not possible. Further, members need to have space inside the loop to tend to their trains and get them ready to run. Our Mod Squad group, and I assume most groups, allow members to run their own trains for an allotted amount of time. Mod Squad is presently working on some reverse curves, meaning we could have a "L" shaped layout. As interesting as that is, when 20 or so members participate, we need to have room for them, their coats, boxes for trains etc. Reducing space inside the loop isn't always a workable plan.

This being said, Kevin Davis is the guru of LCCA modular railroading. Mod Squad is lucky to have Richard and Mark Estvanko who are geniuses at complicated variations. They have created yards up to 8 tracks wide, a puzzle that allows trains to enter and exit two separate yards, and, most importantly, a geezer gate so we don't have to crawl under and then find a hand up when we get to the other side. 

Modular railroading is probably the most enjoyable chapter in my model train life. I thank Kevin Davis and LCCA for that.

Charlie Easton

TCA Division President, LCCA, Mod Squad manager

Charlie everything you say is true.  But that doesn't refute my point that the resulting layout is homogenous in appearance and boring for the operator and viewing public.  Maybe a few participating clubs need to get together with the train show manager, and figure out how to nest two or three different display layouts together in a shape other than a rectangle.

I speak from experience: I was an active member of three different modular clubs in two states, over a period of 32 years.  Personally, I'm done with round-and-round show running.  There are so many cool things our trains can do, so much potential variety from highly prototypical to whimsical.  Interchange modules like the one in the first picture posted by O-gauge are exactly what we need.  With the proliferation of command control, it doesn't take special wiring to have more than one train on the same track.  And since you can walk with your train, manually operated turnouts and balky 3-rail couplers aren't the challenges they once were.

Another thing I don't like about the "open doughnut", is that it divides a display into "us vs. them."  Compared to postwar steam, today's trains are quite tame.  Even Wreck-it Ralph couldn't run a Legacy NW-2 fast enought to derail on a curve (and there's always the emergency stop button!)  I could usually tell if a visitor was trustworthy.  So put the remote in their hands and get them involved!  However, this is hard to do if you're barricaded behind 45" of platform.  That might also be too far to have a conversation about the hobby without shouting over the din of trains.

I'm not trying to knock the modular concept or what Mr. Muffin is doing.  But I strongly encourage these groups to adopt a radically different and more interactive approach, which seems possible but has rarely been tried.

I am impressed by the Muffins offering materials or even assembled modules at such reasonable prices (basically their cost).  This is a very civic minded approach, and hopefully they will benefit by selling some track and trains, and buildings/scenic materials.  Much applause!

As for what is possible, modular groups often do very complex layouts, but this LCCA/Lionel effort is oriented towards the novice, and complexity is the enemy of early enjoyment for novices, so it's a trade off.

@ceastonoh posted:

Some of the points listed as challenges can be answered this way; with modular railroad groups relying on individual members storing and transporting their module, the 30 x 45 dimension works out to a full load for the average SUV. I presently find myself shopping for a new car with a 31" high rear hatch as I write this. The modules need to ride on edge in most cases to protect the scenery area.

As for the comment about many displays being just an oval of track, we need to remember that, at most venues, we are allocated space. So point to point or just about any other variation is not possible. Further, members need to have space inside the loop to tend to their trains and get them ready to run. Our Mod Squad group, and I assume most groups, allow members to run their own trains for an allotted amount of time. Mod Squad is presently working on some reverse curves, meaning we could have a "L" shaped layout. As interesting as that is, when 20 or so members participate, we need to have room for them, their coats, boxes for trains etc. Reducing space inside the loop isn't always a workable plan.

This being said, Kevin Davis is the guru of LCCA modular railroading. Mod Squad is lucky to have Richard and Mark Estvanko who are geniuses at complicated variations. They have created yards up to 8 tracks wide, a puzzle that allows trains to enter and exit two separate yards, and, most importantly, a geezer gate so we don't have to crawl under and then find a hand up when we get to the other side.

Modular railroading is probably the most enjoyable chapter in my model train life. I thank Kevin Davis and LCCA for that.

Charlie Easton

TCA Division President, LCCA, Mod Squad manager

Charlie,

Thank you for the kind words.  In the forest of modular railroaders, I certainly stand alongside giants -  Rich, Mark, Jim, Jimmy, David, Russ, Michael, Chris, Sam, and others.

I recommend you check out the Honda Passport.  Jimmy here in CT owns one and loves it.  We haul modules in it all the time.

Those are valid reasons building ovals.  I also find that making the internal track islands and such require a higher level of skill.  Getting track plans to remain standard across the nation, while being eye popping is challenging.  Kudos to Mark and Rich for the puzzle!!!

Love the geezer gate! 

I look forward to seeing you and your modules at York!

~Kevin

Good idea.
Need to check the track spacing specifications.

The old tinplate trackers with transition track might be able to combine the two concepts for those who already have tinplate trackers modules

@Landsteiner posted:

I am impressed by the Muffins offering materials or even assembled modules at such reasonable prices (basically their cost).  This is a very civic minded approach, and hopefully they will benefit by selling some track and trains, and buildings/scenic materials.  Much applause!

As for what is possible, modular groups often do very complex layouts, but this LCCA/Lionel effort is oriented towards the novice, and complexity is the enemy of early enjoyment for novices, so it's a trade off.

I think he is selling them well below cost.  This is the same thing Kids Creek Railroad has done for its members.  Building modules is not cheap.  However, growing the club adds additional value.

I think all modular railroad programs are orientated towards individuals that are novice.  The track plans in the standards are pretty vanilla.  ... Then club members learn about the standard and they cool things start to happen.

I commend Mr. Muffin Trains for starting this project.  Starting a club is not easy!  Building the corner modules can be exceptionally challenging.  Then again once you have the curves, you have everything needed for the club to grow.

@trainmankjm posted:

Good idea.
Need to check the track spacing specifications.

The old tinplate trackers with transition track might be able to combine the two concepts for those who already have tinplate trackers modules

FMRR use 6" on center spacing.  First track is 3.5" from the front of the module.  Table height is about 32" (31" long 2x2 leg + floor leveler + 1/2" plywood)

Height is going to be the issue I believe.

For reference-- the wTrak group builds modules for wooden push toys like Brio, Thomas and Friends:

wTrak sample layout

But it does provide an idea of what could be done with an abundance of imagination.  As long as you and the other members are having a good time, then you're doing it right!

Fantastic thread !!!

thank you to Mr Muffin, LCCA, & all posters !!!

CB&Q Bill

@Ted S posted:

For reference-- the wTrak group builds modules for wooden push toys like Brio, Thomas and Friends:

wTrak sample layout

But it does provide an idea of what could be done with an abundance of imagination.  As long as you and the other members are having a good time, then you're doing it right!

Ted, this not new. LCCA and Lionel started this concept about 14 years ago. A number of these groups already exist. Steve is simply starting a new group. Kudos for Steve for jumping in. What folks do with these is simply limited only by their imagination. No one is limited by the module size, they can simply add more modules either to the back or above.

One suggestion I would offer to anyone thinking of building these is rather than add individual items like buildings, figures, etc to your modules, cut a piece of insulating foam that covers the open space and build your scene on it. Then build a box to carry the piece so when you setup you just place the whole scene on the layout.
This what many in our modular club has done and can save hours in setup time.

This is an example of a piece that is taken out of a container and placed on a module.

Pete

@ceastonoh posted:

... Reducing space inside the loop isn't always a workable plan.

This is something us modular guys know all too well.  For multi-day shows/events, when we have the space, setup time, and enough of us participating, we will put up an interior yard with operating turntable and sometimes a transfer table as well.  This gives our audiences some non-loop action to watch as some of our guys move engines in and out of the roundhouse and do some light switching.  I also emphasize the "setup time" here as another limiting factor for modular layouts.  Sometimes we only have 2-3 hours of setup time between dawn and showtime, and with our larger 2-day shows, we may get 5-6 hours of setup time and even this is rarely enough to set up the interior yard.

Another thing that we do to try and mitigate the boring loop running is having a couple of sets of modules that move track away from the outer edges of the modules.  One set brings all 4 of our mains inside with scenery in front, and the other set splits the mains with two on the outside and two on the inside with scenery in between.  The downside of this approach is that this takes up a lot of real estate lengthwise (12' for in and out with no straights in between) and multiple modules.

Another tip aimed at keeping the audience from being bored is to "put scenes in the scenery."  We don't just plop down a few houses or industrial buildings with some die cast vehicles -- we add scenes of life and humorous scenes and hidden or whimsical things for people to find (like sasquatches, Minions, celebrity/character figures).  Arttista has made so many wonderful figures that you can create a great many different visual stories with just a handful of them.  Animated accessories and Miller Engineering signs also add to the visual interest in scenery.  Details are important.

I look forward to following Mr. Muffin's new club as it grows!

Andy

@O-gauge posted:

Ted,..snip...

First picture: I would like to see a picture that shows the entire module to the left of the operators

With enough members something like this can be created. These modules are 32x48” but with three mainlines, area behind the inner track is about the same as the LCCA modules.

Pete

@O-gauge posted:

This is 100% amazing.  I am the LCCA's FasTrack Modular Railroad (FMRR) Coordinator and a LCCA Board Member.  For the last seven or eight years I have been helping individuals build modular railroads and modules, all around the country.  This is an amazing opportunity.

When I talked to Mr. Muffin about this project two weeks ago, I got excited!  Mr Muffin has a unique megaphone within the railroad hobby and I look forward to helping him grow his club and build modules.

... I have a fair amount of experience building modules.   I think I have built over 100 FMRR modules at this point.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/703120803539426/

This link Facebook Group is where all of the other FMRR Groups tend to post and hang out.

Kevin......what you guys at the LCCA should be complimented for is your rigid adherence to standards.......that means that anyone who builds to the LCCA standards can hook up with others all over the country.

Unfortunately, many of us in modular layout groups have taken the original Independent  HiRailer Standards  (from about 20-25 years ago) and adapted them to what we wanted to do locally..... end result: there is not a lot of interconnectivity out there. 2 years ago (Oct 2022), when we combined some of our modules (River City 3 Railers from Central Virginia) with the National Capitol Trackers  (Baltimore/Wahington Metro area) in a large layout in the Purple Hall at York, we had to build special transition modules so that our 3 mains were in sync.

I applaud what you have achieved at the LCCA and applaud Steve Nelson and his vision!

Peter

@Norton

Thanks for the tip about placement of scenery on foam board & the photo of a module with scenery and n place.

Are your track & ballast mounted permanently on the module or are they also mounted on a foam board ?

If you have any, please post photos of your scenery board by itself, the module by itself without scenery board in place, and the same module with the scenery board in place.

I have understand if this isn’t possible because photos don’t yet exist of all 3 of these situations.  

Great information !!!

CB&Q Bill

Bill, when I built my modules they hadn’t come up the foam base idea so I spend hours setting mine up piece by piece but the club is setting up for a show this week so may be able to get some photos of the scenery and containers.

Track and base scenery like grass, ballast is glued to the base. Anything over 1/2” or so tall comes off.

Pete

@Norton Pete, if you're a member of the Flower City Hi-Railers then I commend you and your friends for creating one of the best modular set-ups having potential for prototypical operation.  Your group is a real standout exception in this regard!  I've only seen your set-ups a few times in the back of the White(?) hall at York.  I'm in Texas so I doubt I'll ever make it to one of your shows in NY state, but I hope you bring your excellent display to York the next time I attend (probably not until October of '25 )

@Putnam Division posted:

Kevin......what you guys at the LCCA should be complimented for is your rigid adherence to standards.......that means that anyone who builds to the LCCA standards can hook up with others all over the country.

Thank you.
I followed a simple rule that the standard is the standard. This is what I advise all of those that I help on.

The Lionel Collectors Club of America standard goes further than the NMRA standards. Because it provides detailed plans as well as the interface standards.

so long is an individual build a module of the correct dimension using half-inch plywood for the top and 31 inch long legs, and the prescribed electrical connectors everything should be good to go.

@Putnam Division posted:

Kevin......what you guys at the LCCA should be complimented for is your rigid adherence to standards.......that means that anyone who builds to the LCCA standards can hook up with others all over the country.

Unfortunately, many of us in modular layout groups have taken the original Independent  HiRailer Standards  (from about 20-25 years ago) and adapted them to what we wanted to do locally..... end result: there is not a lot of interconnectivity out there. 2 years ago (Oct 2022), when we combined some of our modules (River City 3 Railers from Central Virginia) with the National Capitol Trackers  (Baltimore/Wahington Metro area) in a large layout in the Purple Hall at York, we had to build special transition modules so that our 3 mains were in sync.

I applaud what you have achieved at the LCCA and applaud Steve Nelson and his vision!

Peter

You guys did a great job combining your modules at York.  What I particularly enjoyed was how you integrated the "magic tunnel" into a modular layout.  That is a real crowd pleaser, but I think it would be difficult to implement within the FMRR standards.

What I really want to see is the magic tunnel with a string of giraffe cars. 

@Putnam Division posted:

Unfortunately, many of us in modular layout groups have taken the original Independent  HiRailer Standards  (from about 20-25 years ago) and adapted them to what we wanted to do locally..... end result: there is not a lot of interconnectivity out there. 2 years ago (Oct 2022), when we combined some of our modules (River City 3 Railers from Central Virginia) with the National Capitol Trackers  (Baltimore/Wahington Metro area) in a large layout in the Purple Hall at York, we had to build special transition modules so that our 3 mains were in sync.

We had a similar experience many years ago when we did a joint setup with some guys from the National Capitol Trackers.  Fortunately for both groups, the differences were overcome with some makeshift adapters for the electrical connections, and our 4th mainline just became a storage track.  We originally were a 3 track main and over time added the 4th main on the inside, so we still were otherwise compatible other than our electrical connections.

We talked about the LCCA system internally within my club when the system was being developed, and we thought the only real downside to the system is the two track main, and this downside only happens once the club using it grows to a certain size and track time per member shrinks to where members only get a small amount of running time per setup.  For example, if the club is doing a one-day, 6 hour show, there will be 12 hours of run time with two tracks, and if the club has 20 members, each member would get 36 minutes of time on the layout.  This can be alleviated by a second set of corners and splitting the layout into two separate sets of loops, provided the given space is adequate.  Alternately, if TMCC/Legacy/Lionchief locomotives are being used, multiple trains can be run, but this can be a bad idea with modular layouts, as this requires constant attention from the operators to avoid one train rear-ending the other, and considering the distractions of interacting with the public and other club members, it is not a recommended practice.

Andy

@Andy Hummell posted:

We had a similar experience many years ago when we did a joint setup with some guys from the National Capitol Trackers.  Fortunately for both groups, the differences were overcome with some makeshift adapters for the electrical connections, and our 4th mainline just became a storage track.  We originally were a 3 track main and over time added the 4th main on the inside, so we still were otherwise compatible other than our electrical connections.

We talked about the LCCA system internally within my club when the system was being developed, and we thought the only real downside to the system is the two track main, and this downside only happens once the club using it grows to a certain size and track time per member shrinks to where members only get a small amount of running time per setup.  For example, if the club is doing a one-day, 6 hour show, there will be 12 hours of run time with two tracks, and if the club has 20 members, each member would get 36 minutes of time on the layout.  This can be alleviated by a second set of corners and splitting the layout into two separate sets of loops, provided the given space is adequate.  Alternately, if TMCC/Legacy/Lionchief locomotives are being used, multiple trains can be run, but this can be a bad idea with modular layouts, as this requires constant attention from the operators to avoid one train rear-ending the other, and considering the distractions of interacting with the public and other club members, it is not a recommended practice.

Andy

Running with the Trackers was a fun experience. We are a two track main.The Trackers are three. I have 18’ of modules with a passing track. We needed to replace the two modules with the switches to the passing siding.

This is one of the two modules we had to replace. You see where the passing track is headed for its switch to join the inner main.

This clearly shows the bend to get the tracks aligned. One side is “Trackers”. The other side is RC3Rs”

That’s Tom working with the flex track……

Finished and decorated…..

Then they were wired to Tracker specs…..and here we are in Oct 2022, incorporated into a massive Tracker set up…..

This not meant to divert this thread but it is meant to show what a PIA it is when you don’t adhere to standards…..and, for that reason the LCCA format and orthodoxy to them should be commended!

Peter

@Ted S posted:

@Norton Pete, if you're a member of the Flower City Hi-Railers then I commend you and your friends for creating one of the best modular set-ups having potential for prototypical operation.  Your group is a real standout exception in this regard!  I've only seen your set-ups a few times in the back of the White(?) hall at York.  I'm in Texas so I doubt I'll ever make it to one of your shows in NY state, but I hope you bring your excellent display to York the next time I attend (probably not until October of '25 )

Thanks Ted. There have been some outstanding layouts at York. We just try to keep up.

I believe we did the Black Hall twice along with the Liberty guys and then again in Black Hall just the FCTT HiRailers.

Pete

@ceastonoh posted:

Some of the points listed as challenges can be answered this way; with modular railroad groups relying on individual members storing and transporting their module, the 30 x 45 dimension works out to a full load for the average SUV. I presently find myself shopping for a new car with a 31" high rear hatch as I write this. The modules need to ride on edge in most cases to protect the scenery area.

As for the comment about many displays being just an oval of track, we need to remember that, at most venues, we are allocated space. So point to point or just about any other variation is not possible. Further, members need to have space inside the loop to tend to their trains and get them ready to run. Our Mod Squad group, and I assume most groups, allow members to run their own trains for an allotted amount of time. Mod Squad is presently working on some reverse curves, meaning we could have a "L" shaped layout. As interesting as that is, when 20 or so members participate, we need to have room for them, their coats, boxes for trains etc. Reducing space inside the loop isn't always a workable plan.

This being said, Kevin Davis is the guru of LCCA modular railroading. Mod Squad is lucky to have Richard and Mark Estvanko who are geniuses at complicated variations. They have created yards up to 8 tracks wide, a puzzle that allows trains to enter and exit two separate yards, and, most importantly, a geezer gate so we don't have to crawl under and then find a hand up when we get to the other side.

Modular railroading is probably the most enjoyable chapter in my model train life. I thank Kevin Davis and LCCA for that.

Charlie Easton

TCA Division President, LCCA, Mod Squad manager

Hi Charlie,

Check out the Hyundai Palisade.  My wife's been driving hers for 5 years - and I just bought a 2024 for myself.  It has the height and width I need to haul my display.  Both the second and third row seats lay perfectly flat.  I bought the Calligraphy Night Edition and love the vehicle. 

Thanks Rick. I was thinking of that brand and now I'll need to head to the dealer. The old Subaru is 8 years old now, still under 100K miles, but hauling train stuff is far more important.

Charlie