MTH DCS WTIU - It has Arrived

My opinion is worth nothing, but FWIW there's no new MTH trains in my future except to honor the last remaining pre-order, those old-time R-1 subway cars that I ordered from Mr. Muffins.

I've said it before on other threads, if there's no accommodation for people with disabilities, such as people who have trouble using touch screen technology, then that company(s) has lost my business. The only exception I can foresee is if a future app enables voice commands, e.g., PRR Engine 1361, blow forward whistle and proceed at 5 mph. But then again, if it only would work via touch screen activation, forget it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

None of which changes my answer that the 900mhz capability is possible.  It might be a bit more expensive, but that would be the only way to retain compatibility with the thousands of DCS remotes that are in circulation.

Anything is possible especially when you imagine someone else doing it. How much more cost does that add to the WTIU, everyone already complains about how much everything costs in this hobby. Then, when the supplier obsoletes the 900MHz radio integrated into the WTIU, MTH R&D gets to redesign the WHOLE thing around dying technology.

@Jim Teeple posted:

It is Version 9.3.5 ( 13G36 )  Model MC769LL/A  whatever that is.

I have an old iPad mini, I believe it's a 2. It won't connect to the store, but there's a way to get apps you own on older devices, provided they are compatible.

If you've never owned the app, you'll need to acquire it through a new enough apple device, under the same account your old device is running under. Then from the other device you should have the ability to install it.

I don't recall the details, I googled it over a year ago. I logged in with my apple account on a friend's phone, grabbed the mth app, then deleted my info off his phone, afterwards I was about to get the app on my old mini.

I have purchased the app, and it works fine on my iPhone but i wanted to put it on a larger screen.

The iPad i have is very old and when i go to the app store to download it says it wont work on this iPad and wont let me download it,

when i go to settings in the iPad it says it is Version 9.3.5 ( 13G36 )  Model MC769LL/A  whatever that means.

So my question is what used iPad should i get that i am sure it will be compatible  with the MTH APP ?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I can assure you, if you want to build a 900mhz transceiver, it is still possible.

Building one isn't the problem. Getting FCC approval for a custom one is likely the challenge.

@Jim Teeple posted:

I have purchased the app, and it works fine on my iPhone but i wanted to put it on a larger screen.

The iPad i have is very old and when i go to the app store to download it says it wont work on this iPad and wont let me download it,

when i go to settings in the iPad it says it is Version 9.3.5 ( 13G36 )  Model MC769LL/A  whatever that means.

So my question is what used iPad or Android Tablet should i get that i am sure it will be compatible  with the MTH APP ?

That model is an iPad Gen 2. Mine is the same way, stuck on the 9.3.5 version of iOS.

I have an iPad Air Gen 3 and it has the latest iOS version 18.1 on it. The DCS app works with that.

@rplst8 posted:

That model is an iPad Gen 2. Mine is the same way, stuck on the 9.3.5 version of iOS.

I have an iPad Air Gen 3 and it has the latest iOS version 18.1 on it. The DCS app works with that.

Thank you , I appreciate the help.

@Jim Teeple posted:

Thank you , I appreciate the help.

Oh yeah if it's one that can't get the latest iOS then you need to upgrade.

If you want the cheapest way, then go to the Amazon Renewed and you can get a renewed one very cheap.  I paid 105.00 for my iPad mini 4 for the train room.  It was brand new condition when I got it and works perfect.  I even had the battery tested at the Apple stored and it passed all tests.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Oh yeah if it's one that can't get the latest iOS then you need to upgrade.

If you want the cheapest way, then go to the Amazon Renewed and you can get a renewed one very cheap.  I paid 105.00 for my iPad mini 4 for the train room.  It was brand new condition when I got it and works perfect.  I even had the battery tested at the Apple stored and it passed all tests.

I did the same but got the 5.  Really good price and with the right case has a hand strap. 

@rplst8 posted:

Building one isn't the problem. Getting FCC approval for a custom one is likely the challenge.

Funny, I can buy one from Amazon off the shelf for less than $5.  Anyone wanting to buy quantities of these would obviously be paying a fraction of that.  Let's face it, they're still available, and their not price prohibitive.

All this posturing about it being obsolete and not available is just not true.  Somehow Lionel managed to put a whole crop of different frequency radios in the BASE3, I'm sure it's quite possible.

All,

From the DCS APP:

This link shows what version of IOS runs on the different generations of Apple devices.
https://iosref.com/ios

Refurbished devices are a great way to save $.  I almost always look for a refurb if I don't need the latest and greatest.  The key is to purchase from someone that will work with you if there is an issue.  Beware of any sort of "AS IS" wording.  The big A has a very liberal return policy.  As long as the refurb runs a high enough IOS version, you should be safe.  I would also look for a refurb device that can take IOS above v13, otherwise you may need a new one with an update in a year or so.

Tony V

Thanks everyone for all the great advice, I think I am now in an informed position to buy.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Funny, I can buy one from Amazon off the shelf for less than $5.  Anyone wanting to buy quantities of these would obviously be paying a fraction of that.  Let's face it, they're still available, and their not price prohibitive.

All this posturing about it being obsolete and not available is just not true.  Somehow Lionel managed to put a whole crop of different frequency radios in the BASE3, I'm sure it's quite possible. 

So if MTH is reading this, maybe the answer is an HIU (Handheld Interface Unit).  An adapter will be required to tether the old remotes, why not design something wireless using these off the shelf parts?

I'm good with the App but we all have our preferences.

Tony

To add on GRJ's comment, I am trying to understand MTH's statements: Mike said RF transmitters are too expensive and not available, yet doesn't Lionel use these or similar components in their Cab-1L's?

To Lionel's credit, at least they're giving customers an option of apps vs. good old handhelds - albeit that the now retired Cab II was and is DeFacto standard for handhelds - thanks to Neil Young and crew

I'm convinced it means that there are plans for a handheld remote in the future, and this is just a way to force an upgrade. I'm with GRJ, there's no logical reason to abandon the thousands and thousands of existing handhelds, especially not for an RF radio chip. Either they are extremely shortsighted and genuinely think that a touchscreen interface is good enough/appropriate for everyone, or they are going to come out with something new that includes a price tag. Otherwise, it just doesn't make good business sense.

I love a good app. I use them, and build them, all day, every day. But there's a tactile response you get from the controls of a transformer or the haptic response of a good purpose-built handheld that just can't be replicated. Sure, I can (and do) dedicate standalone phones and tablets to the train room, and I've 3D printed myself little holders for the iPad Minis so that they sit on the table at an angle making it more useful, but a) none of those things *feel* as good as walking around with a controller and b) none of those things make money for the train manufacturers. Lionel built a decent (and improving) app but still supported both old controllers and sell new controllers. There has to be something else coming from MTH, or they are preventing people from upgrading to their new hardware. Doesn't make sense.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Funny, I can buy one from Amazon off the shelf for less than $5.  Anyone wanting to buy quantities of these would obviously be paying a fraction of that.  Let's face it, they're still available, and their not price prohibitive.

All this posturing about it being obsolete and not available is just not true.  Somehow Lionel managed to put a whole crop of different frequency radios in the BASE3, I'm sure it's quite possible.

Well, with a module like that and a USB port on the WTIU it should be ask to build an adapter. Maybe something to look forward to from the John Wills product line. 😉

Seriously though, a lot of those telephone transceivers sold back in the 90s and aughts, were part of a DSP or FPGA package that implemented the digital spread spectrum tech on chip to get the ability to transmit at at a full watt. I don't know what the internal protocol was, but if using paired transceivers, it could be quite difficult to reverse engineer that and hope that some new part could faithfully reproduce the same signal.

If that's the case, probably not a great design choice to choose those parts in hindsight, but would have been cheaper to implement back then too.

P.S. my scope is only good to 1 GS/sec or I would try and reverse engineer the signal. Maybe I'll look for some 900MHz FEs with an IF in the middle of my scope's capabilities.

@Paul Kallus posted:

To add on GRJ's comment, I am trying to understand MTH's statements: Mike said RF transmitters are too expensive and not available, yet doesn't Lionel use these or similar components in their Cab-1L's?

To Lionel's credit, at least they're giving customers an option of apps vs. good old handhelds - albeit that the now retired Cab II was and is DeFacto standard for handhelds - thanks to Neil Young and crew

The difference, I suspect, is that all of the radios in Lionel's Base3 are using relatively commoditized standards. Wi-Fi, BT, and I think 27 or 49 MHz for the original LionChief stuff (and RC standard).

DCS used 900 MHz cordless telephone tech which is all but obsolete. That band was opened to use in '93 and there was a whole industry around the digital tech for those transceivers. While yes, you can still make and/or buy a 900 MHz radio, some of the tech in the transceivers was proprietary to the chip maker. Some of the encryption tech maybe even export controlled at the time. Somewhere around '96 they federal government relaxed those restrictions.

I have no idea if the TIU and DCS Remote used some or all of that tech, but based on what I've read about it, I feel it's very plausible that's part of the challenge in providing backwards compatibility.

@rplst8 posted:

The difference, I suspect, is that all of the radios in Lionel's Base3 are using relatively commoditized standards. Wi-Fi, BT, and I think 27 or 49 MHz for the original LionChief stuff (and RC standard).

Everything in the BASE3 runs in the 2.4GHz spectrum. Lionel specifically states it will not work with the very few & very first Lionchief sets which I believe are only Thomas sets.

According to the FCC filings, all Lionchief, Lionchief+, and  Lionchief 2.0 (Bluetooth) run with 2.4GHz transceivers.

@H1000 posted:

Everything in the BASE3 runs in the 2.4GHz spectrum. Lionel specifically states it will not work with the very few & very first Lionchief sets which I believe are only Thomas sets.

According to the FCC filings, all Lionchief, Lionchief+, and  Lionchief 2.0 (Bluetooth) run with 2.4GHz transceivers.

Interesting. That explains a lot, but also makes me question why they had such trouble getting it made.

@rplst8 posted:

Interesting. That explains a lot, but also makes me question why they had such trouble getting it made.

Covid???

@rplst8 posted:

Interesting. That explains a lot, but also makes me question why they had such trouble getting it made.

Well, it doesn't matter now.  It's made and available!

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Well, it doesn't matter now.  It's made and available!

What does that have to do with the WTIU?

Still feeling like some confusion exists here. I gathered the new WTIU will connect to your handheld tethered with a normal old school 4pin rj9? Spiral cord available now. Sounded like the wait is for the dongle to connect the new WTIU to the Lionel TMCC/legacy bases.
I still hate the idea of tethering or using my phone. Or paying 25 extra for features that exist on my old TIU.  

@VADarthDad posted:

Still feeling like some confusion exists here. I gathered the new WTIU will connect to your handheld tethered with a normal old school 4pin rj9? Spiral cord available now. Sounded like the wait is for the dongle to connect the new WTIU to the Lionel TMCC/legacy bases.
I still hate the idea of tethering or using my phone. Or paying 25 extra for features that exist on my old TIU.  

Well, the new one WTIU, ships with no such remote jack, and only has a HOST USB port (please look that up and wrap around why that is a huge difference in function) so not only do you need adapters- but those adapters have to use chipsets compatible with the host firmware.

I'm not saying it's impossible for 3rd party stuff to work, just a huge and very important note- not all USB is the same function and same rules.

@VADarthDad posted:

Still feeling like some confusion exists here. I gathered the new WTIU will connect to your handheld tethered with a normal old school 4pin rj9? Spiral cord available now. Sounded like the wait is for the dongle to connect the new WTIU to the Lionel TMCC/legacy bases.
I still hate the idea of tethering or using my phone. Or paying 25 extra for features that exist on my old TIU.  

That was an assumption because the old units have a jack, but the new one does not.  Pretty much any external connection has to go through the USB port now (except the AIU).  So, whether tethering the remote or hooking up TMCC/Legacy bases to WTIU, they will require a special pigtail cable.