MTH New Little Joes

Don,

I think that MTH's model is only correct for one specific Little Joe prototype which is the E78, that got involved in a wreck and rebuilt with a different cab and nose shape that makes it look different than the rest of the fleet.  The windshields and the top of the nose look more like an F unit and the angle of the nose is different as well.  So if they offer it in Demonstrator or South Shore (I don't think South Shore ever took possession of E78 but could be wrong)  then it probably won't be accurate.

John your correct. I always wondered why in the world they picked E78 to model. I was one of a kind. Nice looking but the Joes shouldn't have a GM nose and I think they used GM side grills. South Shore got their three before Milwaukee agreed to buy theirs. This is a shot of all three South Shore locos together. Don

I think I know why MTH built E78 rather than any of the regular Joes. I have seen somewhere, I forget where, a published set of scale drawings of E78. Scale drawings are the Holy Grail of model train production; without them the manufacturer often won't proceed at all. I know of at least one major Milwaukee Road locomotive project that got cancelled because scale drawings couldn't be found and probably don't exist.  I'm sure there are scale drawings out there for an as-built Little Joe (Weaver seems to have found them), but I think what happened is that MTH saw the same set of drawings I did and glommed onto them, not knowing enough about the Little Joes to realize that they had just committed themselves to build the runt of the litter. 

I wish MTH would correct their molds, but given the cost of such tooling work, I doubt it will ever happen. I'd probably buy another MTH Joe if they did fix the nose, even though I already have one MTH and one Weaver. 

Wonder why they didn't just go out and use E-70. She's in a park at Deer Lodge. Don

So Don, are you still glad about MTH coming out with the South Shore and Demo paint schemes, or are you going to pass due to the particular model MTH chose to represent?

The other issue is that Weaver's version of the Little Joe depicts the passenger version (with steam generator and related fixings) and since there were only two that were equipped as such in the real world, Weaver in essence also making their model almost as much of a one-off (twice off?) as the MTH version.  So either Weaver or MTH using the aforementioned E-70 would have given them a wider range of prototype #s to model.

Yea, I think I'll go for the GE Demo. I would guess it's going to be a long time before anyone comes out the anything else. I got to use something on all that wire I'm putting up. Don

You could always try to find the Weaver version and have it custom-painted in the Demonstrator colors.  That will at least give you a better approximation. 

That's nice, but I'd rather they make an E-60, EF-2 or an EF-3...wish I could find the multiview drawings on those or I'd make my own.

Don:

The MTH O scale Joe is not based upon the rebuilt E78. I have a model and I'm looking at it right now. The nose contours replicate the original GE design. I believe people get confused because the original catalog artwork showed an HO model of the rebuilt E78. True, the E78 was wrecked in 1966 and rebuilt using various EMD components; however, MTH's Joe features original GE equipment in terms of the nose, cab and grillwork. The rebuilt E78 was also equipped with louvers at the midpoint of the carbody. MTH's model does not include such louvers.

Below, I've posted two photos, one each of the A and B ends, of the rebuilt E78. MTH's model does not reflect the external modifications of the rebuilt locomotive:

I hope this information is of assistance to you and anyone else who is under the impression the MTH Joe is a model of the E78 in its rebuilt configuration. It is not.

Bob

Bob, Milwaukee never had any E-60s. I have two sets of MTH EF units. They should make them again, there going for a mint. Don

As a follow up to my post above, here are a few quick shots my son took of the MTH Joe:

As you can see, those are the original GE contours as exhibited by the E73:

Bob

Thanks for the info Bob. You learn something every day on this forum. I have both numbers of these motors from MTH. Here's one. Don

The MTH O scale Joe is not based upon the rebuilt E78. I have a model and I'm looking at it right now. The nose contours replicate the original GE design.

Horse puckey. Here is a photo of the Weaver and MTH models side by side, showing the difference in nose angle. The Weaver has the correct nose angle for the rest of the Joes. As for the shot of E73, the angle and distance from the camera compress the nose area and make it appear more vertical than it really is. The phenomenon is called foreshortening and is well known to professional photographers. A quartering shot like that one is not going to show the angle properly; you will only get that from a broadside view. 

-{E-60}I know, but it would've looked good in MR colors...get my hands on one and it "will"!...that or GN, I'm torn between the two roads..after the Q of course.

-...and boy do I know, watched afew go away on the bay because the price got out of hand{well, for me anyway}...I have the EF-1 end and side drawings but no top...if I could nail down some drawings or good top shots I'd try it.

S.H. On another note, how do you like the Weaver motor? I still wish someone would make the Milwaukee electric switchers. Don

When I get farther along building my layout I will take some top pictures for you. Don

I stand by my information about the MTH Joe not being a model of the rebuilt E78 as presented. Again, if you look closely at the photographs I posted you will notice the cab and nose of the MTH model do not feature the curvature and profile of EMD components. In your picture of the MTH and Weaver locomotives side by side, I do see a difference in the angle of the noses; however, knowing three rail O manufacturers as I do, probably neither is absolutely perfect. I can tell you whatever difference exists between the nose angle of the two locomotives is not due to an attempt by MTH to build a model of the modified E78. That's readily apparent from a study of prototype photographs and other materials, to me at least.

In conclusion, I must say I've never heard the phrase "horse puckey" before. Thanks for the comic relief. I'll have to remember that one for future use.

Bob

Interesting discussion. I am in for the South Shore. Here are a few photos of #803 at IRM in 2009. They don't run it, of course, because power requirements are incompatible with 600 volts DC.

This page from Noel Holley's The Milwaukee Road Electrics speaks for itself. If you click on the image to blow it up, you can read Holley's captions describing how two Little Joes that were damaged in the same wreck were rebuilt - E72 to the original appearance, and E78 with new cabs. The rebuild did not simply graft EMD cabs onto the Little Joe body; the EMD components were blended in to create a hybrid. Note the similarities between E78 and the MTH nose. One thing I hadn't focused on before is the side grille. The MTH unit has shiny, EMD style grilles, as on E78 after the rebuild, but they are the original angled shape, not rectangular as on E78. So, we really don't have a model of E78 - we have something that didn't exist, a unit with an E78 nose and a shiny grille in the original shape. So, either way MTH gets it wrong - if they were trying to do the original, they put an E78 nose on it, and if it is supposed to be E78, it's got the wrong shape grille. 

Here's a shot of E75 that shows clearly the original nose angle. Very different from the rebuilt E78.

It's a shame they didn't do the non GM/GE rebuild but I guess I'm not that much of a purest. It really doesn't drive me crazy. I'm just glad MTH did so many one of a kind type engines of the Milwaukee Road. Now just do a quill or electric switcher. PLEASE. I still think Weaver would be the perfect company to do the little switcher with a plastic shell. Don

By the way MTH doesn't have any scale Milwaukee pantographs in stock. If you run on any kind of overhead you need extra pantographs. These came with the Joes and box cab so It's amazing to me they don't carry any extras. Don

Whew! You "Little Joe" Joes are as OCD as we NYC Hudson wackos. 

I didn't know that there was a Joe rebuilt with EMD parts. (Didn't GN do a wrecked box cab

electric in a double-ended EMD body? Somebody needs to build that.)

BTW, the windshield openings are more angular on the GE front end; it's not just the

nose.

I have the Weaver Joe, because I love big electrics; the CMStP&P itself doesn't really boil my water. 

D500 "the CMStP&P itself doesn't really boil my water."

Thems fightin words partner. Don