MTH Proto 1 Engines with Original Battery

I have a few PS-1 locos that I bought new 20 to 25 years ago. At the 5 year mark replaced the batteries with BCR's. Never have had any issues with any of the locos, some may never get any run time for 1 to 2 years.

If you are running PS-1 locos with 15 year or older batteries you are really rolling the dice.

   Bill T.

IMO, you are very foolish to still be running those with the original battery, some of the early ones are especially prone to scrambling the memory if the battery fails.  I see lots of PS/1 stuff with bad batteries, in some cases the customer gets a new board for one that can't be recovered.  A 15 year old NiCad is dead or on it's deathbed at least.  What I see here is false economy.

YMMV, and this is my last word on the topic.

Arnold,

I'm not a battery expert but would recommend replacing all the original batteries ASAP. They are NiCad (nickel-cadmium) batteries which develop a "memory" from being deeply discharged. I usually replace mine with an NiMH (nickel-metal-hydride) battery which I don't think has that characteristic. The other choice is a BCR (battery component replacement) which is an electrical circuit that quickly charges up with power from the track and should last much longer than a battery. NiMH replacements are available at low cost from MTH.

MELGAR

Arnold, I replaced the batteries with BCRs on mine when I got them used.  All were purchased in the last few years, so I have no idea how often they were run, though some owners said they were sitting on the shelf or in the box for years.  As to how often to run them, I have no idea.  I don't have many engines, so I cycle through them within 4 to 6 months, I guess. 

Here is an example of an F7 set I got this year.  Only one A-unit is powered, but it runs nice.  I can't find the photographs of my BL2, and it is under the mess of the Halloween display transitioning to Christmas display, so I will try to get it out later.

You won’t be so proud when you blow your boards and they don’t run anymore! An MTH green battery is about $10 bucks.  A new board installed is going to run you about $200. Throw those old white batteries out and make the $10 investment.  If I buy an older PS-1 or a PS-2 I won’t put any voltage to it before I change the battery. 

Thank you all, for your valuable advice!

I was going to add something funny: run your Proto 1 with original battery at least as often as you get your teeth cleaned by the dentist, at least once every 6 months, and if you do it once every 4 months (3 times per year), that is even better, like teeth cleanings that often at the dentist.

However, the consensus among us is that there is substantial risk of causing damage to the engine and/or circuit Board by not replacing the original battery with one of those recommended above, even if you run the engines as often as once per week.

Here is another one of my favorite MTH Proto 1s:

I’m a BCR fan.

Steve

Railking Proto 1 Erie Lackawanna NW2 and Pennsy K4:

Arnold,

You are definitely running these on borrowed time. Back when I had more of the PS1 loco's , I had one that went in the neutral lockout that I could not reset myself. After spending $30 each way for freight, plus the fee of resetting and installing a new BCR, I ordered  enough of the BCR's to change out all of my PS1 and PS2 batteries with BCR's Model Train Stuff has them the cheapest. the more you buy the more you save. Do yourself a big favor. one note though, after power up with the BCR's, you need to let the engine power up for min of 1 minute, prior to moving into forward.

Joe Gozzo

What Gunrunner and Chris said.    You are crazy to run those old batteries.  

Thank you all for your wise advice to replace the original Proto 1 battery with a nickel metal hydride battery or a BCR. I will definitely do it, probably with a BCR.

However, I'm curious to know the following: has anyone besides me had Proto 1 engines for a long time (over 10 years), never replaced the original battery, and never had a problem with the engines? Arnold

MELGAR posted:

Arnold,

I'm not a battery expert but would recommend replacing all the original batteries ASAP. They are NiCad (nickel-cadmium) batteries which develop a "memory" from being deeply discharged. I usually replace mine with an NiMH (nickel-metal-hydride) battery which I don't think has that characteristic. The other choice is a BCR (battery component replacement) which is an electrical circuit that quickly charges up with power from the track and should last much longer than a battery. NiMH replacements are available at low cost from MTH.

MELGAR

I agree w/ MELGAR.  The frequency that you run the engine could be a consideration in which replacement you choose ($10 MTH green Ni-MH or other $3.50 name brand compatible, _{$4 Li-ion,} or $23 BCR).  If you run the engine sparingly, I'd go w/ either the Ni-MH _{or Li-ion}.  If you're running PS-1 often and plan to keep the engine then the $23 BCR would be my choice.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

However, I'm curious to know the following: has anyone besides me had Proto 1 engines for a long time (over 10 years), never replaced the original battery, and never had a problem with the engines? Arnold

I'm curious why you would even care.  A ten year old NiCad is past the end of it's useful life, that's a simple fact.  Whether someone skated on the edge and eked out a couple more years seems to be a moot point.  Common sense dictates you replace this cheap and obviously way past useful component!

So, if a dozen people pipe up and say they have old PS/1 locomotives that are still running on the old white battery, what happens?  Will you decide that's more valid than the many knowledgeable people that have told you you're playing with fire to keep using very old NiCad batteries? 

Haven't we beaten this dead horse sufficiently?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

However, I'm curious to know the following: has anyone besides me had Proto 1 engines for a long time (over 10 years), never replaced the original battery, and never had a problem with the engines? Arnold

I'm curious why you would even care.  A ten year old NiCad is past the end of it's useful life, that's a simple fact.  Whether someone skated on the edge and eked out a couple more years seems to be a moot point.  Common sense dictates you replace this cheap and obviously way past useful component!

So, if a dozen people pipe up and say they have old PS/1 locomotives that are still running on the old white battery, what happens?  Will you decide that's more valid than the many knowledgeable people that have told you you're playing with fire to keep using very old NiCad batteries? 

Haven't we beaten this dead horse sufficiently?

I quite agree...

Mark in Oregon

Forum member Keystone above mentioned a Li-Ion replacement battery....  DON'T DO THAT !!

Li-Ion batteries should only be used with chargers specifically designed for them, having the proper regulation and voltage and temperature monitoring. The MTH charging circuit does not have such features.  I have seen Li-Ion batteries catch fire and I don't want them in my trains! 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Haven't we beaten this dead horse sufficiently?

You want us to miss out on all the ruined engines over a $10 battery replacement?

The GN Man posted:

Forum member Keystone above mentioned a Li-Ion replacement battery....  DON'T DO THAT !!

Li-Ion batteries should only be used with chargers specifically designed for them, having the proper regulation and voltage and temperature monitoring. The MTH charging circuit does not have such features.  I have seen Li-Ion batteries catch fire and I don't want them in my trains! 

My mistake; though IIRC initially the same 8.4V battery was used in PS1 and 1st edition PS2 I was thinking of Barry Broskowitz's posted advice from 1/21/2018 (which was for PS-2 NOT PS-1's charging circuit .

PS2 8.4 v Batteries

Barry Broskowitz posted:

First, the higher the battery's mAh rating, the better.

Second, you can use a Lithium Ion battery as long as it's charging characteristics are the similar to those of a NiCad or NiMH battery. I verified this with MTH before placing a couple of Lithium Ion batteries  I purchased on Amazon in older PS2 engines several months ago. So far, so good.

Yes, I have worked on PS-1 engines that still had original batteries that even had a surface charge left.  Problem is they won't really last long once you put engines in service.  G

For those who just insist on using these old PS1 batteries here is how to do it without risking your PS1 board. Before putting in the loco I usually put 9v across it for about 5 seconds like you would charge a conventional battery. Then check with a meter. This also helps the charging circuit on the board not see the battery as a short during that first second powered up.  See 7 attached pix.    j

Very creative Johnaction. Arnold, their are better ways to get that "gambling" adrenaline rush. Buy a few rub-offs. You may win and be able to replace, not only the batteries, but the engines too, with PS-3.

A belated thank you for your very helpful advice. Will be going with BCRs. Arnold

I've had a couple PS-1 locomotives messed up due to a low green battery running every 4 months, so you are very lucky with the white ones.  Just replace them.

I replaced all of my Proto and some of my  Proto 2.0 engines with the RayOvac 9v. rechargeable plus 200mAh batteries

Very good so far, it's been a year.  Tenergy makes a similar product I'm trying out with positive results.

Ray

It all comes down to the proverbial ounce of prevention.

I recently opted for BCRs to replace the original white batteries in my Proto 1 and 2 engines.

The steamers (5 of them) and 2 of the diesels were a piece of cake to replace the battery. It was easy to replace the white battery in those engines because the batteries were easily accessible and attached by double stick tape, which I could scrape away and remove with a screwdriver.

However, I did not replace the original battery in 2 of the diesels: a Railking Jersey Central FM Trainmaster with smoke, and a Railking Lackawanna NW2.  Those batteries were not easily accessible, were affixed in a black casing, and that casing looks like it may be attached by a silver colored bracket and a screw from underneath the chassis. Below are some pictures of the FM Trainmaster:

Any thought on how to remove the original battery in the black casing?

My guess is I may have to unscrew or detach things that keep the silver colored metal bracket, circuit boards and wires in place. 

Arnold

Arnold, can you make a couple more photos. One looking straight down and one fore and aft of the center line.  We cannot see how the plastic case connects to the aluminum bracket. I have not seen this arrangement and hopefully someone with the same loco will see your post. That looks like a tender frame to me.  j

At a concert at the moment. Will try to take those photos tonight or tomorrow morning. Thanks.

Arnold:  I have never replaced any of the battiers in any of my MTH locomotives and I some of the earliest PS1 locomotives along with some very old PS2 locomotives over 60 in all. As I unpack them after this final move I will slowly repacked every battery just have not made up my mind if I will use BCR’s or make my own based on the information GRJ so  graciously sent me. 

RJT posted:

Arnold:  I have never replaced any of the battiers in any of my MTH locomotives and I some of the earliest PS1 locomotives along with some very old PS2 locomotives over 60 in all. As I unpack them after this final move I will slowly repacked every battery just have not made up my mind if I will use BCR’s or make my own based on the information GRJ so  graciously sent me. 

 

 

Rick, that's a nice collection of MTH you have. If you opt to get BCRs, J & W Electronics from York, Pa is offering them at 15% off now (I believe until on or about 12/18/18), so the customer ends up paying about $21.50 per BCR. I recently bought 11 of them for my 11 Proto 1 and 2 locomotives.

Like you, Rick, I also have 2 or 3 very early Proto 1 engines and never had a problem with the original batteries in any of my MTH engines. However, I am convinced from the input given by our Forum friends on this thread, that it is wise to replace the original batteries.

I am very pleased with my MTH's trains, which have stood the test of time. I am also enamoured with LionChief Plus, especially because my 6 year old granddaughter loves to run them using the remote. Arnold

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I recently opted for BCRs to replace the original white batteries in my Proto 1 and 2 engines.

The steamers (5 of them) and 2 of the diesels were a piece of cake to replace the battery. It was easy to replace the white battery in those engines because the batteries were easily accessible and attached by double stick tape, which I could scrape away and remove with a screwdriver.

However, I did not replace the original battery in 2 of the diesels: a Railking Jersey Central FM Trainmaster with smoke, and a Railking Lackawanna NW2.  Those batteries were not easily accessible, were affixed in a black casing, and that casing looks like it may be attached by a silver colored bracket and a screw from underneath the chassis. Below are some pictures of the FM Trainmaster:

Any thought on how to remove the original battery in the black casing?

My guess is I may have to unscrew or detach things that keep the silver colored metal bracket, circuit boards and wires in place. 

Arnold

I just realized these are not the correct photos. Sorry for the confusion. The above photos are for a Railking Proto 1 Reading Crusader Steamer. With the help of a friend, that original battery was replaced successfully. 

I will take photos of the inside of the FM Trainmaster and post them later. Arnold

Guys and gals

Be SMART and REPLACE the dead batteries with BCR and have peace of mind and be done with it.   I bought a NIB Railking Southern NW2 PS-1 that was made in 1999 and I purchased a J&W  BCR for it as I cannot afford to spend 200 dollars for a old PS-1 board if a used one not knowing if its any good or not.   I purchased the NIB NW-2 for less than the boards cost alone.

Tiffany 

Here is a photo showing the original white battery behind a bunch of wires:

Here is a close up shot of the battery:

My recollection is that I have had this locomotive for about 15 years, it is one of my favorites and my first smoking diesel. It is great looking, a great puller and it has always run flawlessly.  I love it. 

I am very interested in what needs to be done to gain access to the battery to replace it. My guess is the wires surrounding it need to be at least jostled, and maybe detached. 

You won't believe this. I started writing this reply about 45 minutes ago. I moved the wires a little, and began to think I could get to the battery without disconnecting the wires. The battery seemed awfully snug, but I noticed I could move it a tiny bit, then a little more.

Little by little, I got the battery out. I did it. Battery now replaced, shell back on, runs like a charm. Halleluia! Arnold

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Here is a photo showing the original white battery behind a bunch of wires:

Here is a close up shot of the battery:

My recollection is that I have had this locomotive for about 15 years, it is one of my favorites and my first smoking diesel. It is great looking, a great puller and it has always run flawlessly.  I love it. 

I am very interested in what needs to be done to gain access to the battery to replace it. My guess is the wires surrounding it need to be at least jostled, and maybe detached. 

You won't believe this. I started writing this reply about 45 minutes ago. I moved the wires a little, and began to think I could get to the battery without disconnecting the wires. The battery seemed awfully snug, but I noticed I could move it a tiny bit, then a little more.

Little by little, I got the battery out. I did it. Battery now replaced, shell back on, runs like a charm. Halleluia! Arnold

Arnold,  this is not the same locomotive that was in your first message.       j

JohnActon posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Here is a photo showing the original white battery behind a bunch of wires:

Here is a close up shot of the battery:

My recollection is that I have had this locomotive for about 15 years, it is one of my favorites and my first smoking diesel. It is great looking, a great puller and it has always run flawlessly.  I love it. 

I am very interested in what needs to be done to gain access to the battery to replace it. My guess is the wires surrounding it need to be at least jostled, and maybe detached. 

You won't believe this. I started writing this reply about 45 minutes ago. I moved the wires a little, and began to think I could get to the battery without disconnecting the wires. The battery seemed awfully snug, but I noticed I could move it a tiny bit, then a little more.

Little by little, I got the battery out. I did it. Battery now replaced, shell back on, runs like a charm. Halleluia! Arnold

Arnold,  this is not the same locomotive that was in your first message.       j

That is correct. I already explained that the first photos I posted were for a different locomotive in which the BCR was already installed.

For MTH engines prior to Proto 1, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

Same question for MTH engines that have Loco-sounds or otherwise have no Protosounds, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

For MTH engines prior to Proto 1, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

Same question for MTH engines that have Loco-sounds or otherwise have no Protosounds, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

No, MTH locomotives that are not equipped with PS1, that just have basic whistle/ horn and bell do not have a battery. These are the oldest of MTH engines. ........Pat

harmonyards posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

For MTH engines prior to Proto 1, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

Same question for MTH engines that have Loco-sounds or otherwise have no Protosounds, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

No, MTH locomotives that are not equipped with PS1, that just have basic whistle/ horn and bell do not have a battery. These are the oldest of MTH engines. ........Pat

Thank you! Now I don't have to worry about those oldie but goodie MTH locomotives!

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

harmonyards posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

For MTH engines prior to Proto 1, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

Same question for MTH engines that have Loco-sounds or otherwise have no Protosounds, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

No, MTH locomotives that are not equipped with PS1, that just have basic whistle/ horn and bell do not have a battery. These are the oldest of MTH engines. ........Pat

Thank you! Now I don't have to worry about those oldie but goodie MTH locomotives!

When in doubt Arnold, best to pop the covers off and have a looksie around. Good opportunity to do basic maintenance anyways while your there. Even though can motors are “maintenance free”, a tiny drop of oil on their bearings will never hurt, good time to wipe up grime, smoke fluids, and what not.....inspect gear boxes from the inside lets you see if you have enough grease in them.....diesels, (especially Railking)  while you have the shell off, you can take the one motor mount screw out from the bottom and apply fresh grease while your there.....if I’m gonna open up a locomotive, I’m gonna tackle everything while I’m in there.....wire inspections, preventive maintenance, and what ever else I see that’s going on.......don’t just blindly stick a battery in and go.....your inside, might as well enjoy the mechanical part of it.............Pat

harmonyards posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

harmonyards posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

For MTH engines prior to Proto 1, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

Same question for MTH engines that have Loco-sounds or otherwise have no Protosounds, do they have batteries that need to be replaced?

No, MTH locomotives that are not equipped with PS1, that just have basic whistle/ horn and bell do not have a battery. These are the oldest of MTH engines. ........Pat

Thank you! Now I don't have to worry about those oldie but goodie MTH locomotives!

When in doubt Arnold, best to pop the covers off and have a looksie around. Good opportunity to do basic maintenance anyways while your there. Even though can motors are “maintenance free”, a tiny drop of oil on their bearings will never hurt, good time to wipe up grime, smoke fluids, and what not.....inspect gear boxes from the inside lets you see if you have enough grease in them.....diesels, (especially Railking)  while you have the shell off, you can take the one motor mount screw out from the bottom and apply fresh grease while your there.....if I’m gonna open up a locomotive, I’m gonna tackle everything while I’m in there.....wire inspections, preventive maintenance, and what ever else I see that’s going on.......don’t just blindly stick a battery in and go.....your inside, might as well enjoy the mechanical part of it.............Pat

That's terrific advice, Pat. Thank you. I did not do any of the things you recommend while changing the battery for 8 of my 11 engines. To do such maintenance was the farthest thing from my mind because of my fears that I might mess up the wiring and circuit boards inside the engines.  I will do the things you suggest when replacing the battery with a BCR for the 3 additional engines, and when the need arises to take off the shell in the future.

I have had all 11 of my Proto 1 and 2 engines for over 10 years. The only maintenance I've done was to order from MTH new traction tires for my steamers and put them on (still have not replaced the traction tires on the diesels); I periodically put a little light oil on the driving rods of the steamers; and I put Labelle gear oil on the gears that can be accessed on the bottom of the locomotives without taking the shell off.  I follow the advise in the instruction booklet for each locomotive, and have had no problems with any of them.  Arnold