MTH PS3 WONT PULL UNDER LOAD? PLEASE HELP

Does the A unit run fine by itself?  You may be dragging the Slave A unit and that is the issue.  Test Lead A by self.  Or is this only  problem with the lighted passenger cars, if so what transformer are you using?  Maybe the transformer is overloaded?  G

Tested by itself and im using a,1000 watt brick conected to a TIU  that was without the other 2 dummy units. i  just hooked it up to the cars.  track voltage is 18.  when i put it under a load it shuts down. i reset the engine too.  before i changed all 4 traction tires it was ok. it just slipped and one of the rubber traction bands came off, thus the reason i replaced all 4. also i did replace the wick in the smoke unit but that seems ok now. no fluid on anything after cleaning off the fluid that originally did get on interior of engine area

It does run by itself with no issues and accepts all comands but as soon as i hook it to the lighted passenger cars it bogs down and shuts off.  then says no engine found. then if i move it a bit on the track it will restart  and repeat issue as soon as i hook it to other cars. Maybe a capacitor for recharging is bad or something. Thats were i get lost because i dont understand how they work 

Have you tried running the loco with non-lighted freight cars being pulled?

It seems similar too how my 2.0 steam engine was acting when the on board battery was dead. after i charged it on the rails overnight it runs beautiful and the info says battery ok. with this one its a 3.0 and has no battery so maybe whatever it does have might be the problem and when i say a capacitor im blindly guessing.

bigtruckpete posted:

Have you tried running the loco with non-lighted freight cars being pulled?

Yes

It could be one of the lighted passenger cars is shorting out, try adding one lighted car at a time if you haven't already done so. Also make sure the wheels on your loco are clean and free of any gunk.

jvega2 posted:

It could be one of the lighted passenger cars is shorting out, try adding one lighted car at a time if you haven't already done so. Also make sure the wheels on your loco are clean and free of any gunk.

I used my steam engine and it pulled them all and wheels are clean. I also cleaned all the wheels on the trucks the other day and the track.  I  did have a PRR Madison car short out on me the other day and started smoking bad before i removed it.  that was an attention getter. I just cant figure this out and cant afford to put it back in the shop right now. any ideas are greatly appreciated. i should go to school to learn to service these beastly things. they sure can cost a few bucks when they act up. 

Ok, Did shell come off when you did this?  Maybe a truck is binding, maybe a pinched wire?  Or the pickup and wheels need to be cleaned.  If you start engine by self and turn power off does it play full shutdown sounds?  If so caps are ok, and something else is at issue under load.  If it ran fine before changing tires find out what is different.  Maybe a bad motor on the truck that threw the first traction tire. Under load are you dragging any wheels?  G

Not dragging any wheels and they are clean. i checked for binding and pinched wires.  do you think a thin film of smoke fluid could have gotten into some circuitry and is causing a problem. i tried cleaning it off everything. it wasnt drenched but was a film on a good part of the inside. i know some fluid is just mineral oil and have overfilled it before and the engine was ok. i hope that didnt short anything out. if its not under a load it works perfectly and no draging wheels and both motors are working. i made sure it was in dcs mode too.  the other day i fid see some liquid inside where it switchs off and on  but cleaned it carefully and dried it with a hairdryer without heat. i used isopropyl alcohol on qtips to carefully clean everyting to help dry things up.  could it be a capacitor which i dont know alot about except i read something on here how they use them on the PS3 instead of a battery to build up as reserve power for when needed like the battery on the PS2 once i charged my steam engine with PS2 it ran great.  before i charged it.  it was dying on the track shutting off acting strangely but didnt have a problem pulling a load but only made it a few feet before it shutoff. after i charged the 2.0 battery  for 14 hrs the steam engine runs perfect nowi know its not about the steam engine but im trying to provide as much trouble shooting information i can  thank you for helping me

 what are caps .  im still somewhat illiterate with learning about all these things but i am learning alot 

OK, it's running fine on the track while it is not pulling any cars, and the cars themselves have run fine on the tracks with another locomotive. And the problem started after you changed the traction tires. Right?

Well, that suggests to me that the traction tires might be bunching up because they are loose. The tires may be catching on the side frames or brake shoes. That wouldn't happen until the loco was pulling a load. If the wheels can't turn, it could prompt an overload.

If that's the case, you should be able to tell. When the locomotive comes to a halt, kill the power, remove the engine and inspect the tires.

It is possible that you may have installed tires that were too large or stretched proper-sized tires too much while installing them.

Interesting - I have no suggestions (so why am I wasting your time?), but I have the "same" RK Scale PS2 GM&O ABA set and it has always been a poor runner. Sluggish; seems to have a weak ground/common sometimes. The traction tires look odd (a hint). I put it on the shelf and never got around to de-bugging it.

Beautiful shelf queen.

This is a good one! Just on the outside chance check the Auto coupler assembly. If things did not go back right that is a possible place where a short would not show up unless it's under load. 

If the smoke fluid was causing a short I'm pretty sure it would be there cars or no.

I have to admit the traction tire bunching idea makes the most sense.

Good luck and let us know what you find.  

Looks like its not going to be operational this Christmas. i tryed everything and checked everything. i will use the other B and A units as static displays.  it must be another short or something. its a real nice aba unit but it never did run good very long. it was in for repair 2 years ago and it had a short. i think it has resurfaced. thank you all for your replys.  i was able to fix my steam engine because  of replys and i do have that one running.

God Bless and have a Safe and Happy Holidays 

Try turning the locomotive around so that the loco is running backwards while pulling the cars forward to see if that suggests anything.

Earl

If it is shorting the AC input.  The short is most likely at the Red pickup wire coming from the center rail roller off the truck and through the frame.  This just requires some expertise in troubleshooting.   G

Jim R. posted:

Well, that suggests to me that the traction tires might be bunching up because they are loose. The tires may be catching on the side frames or brake shoes. That wouldn't happen until the loco was pulling a load. If the wheels can't turn, it could prompt an overload.

It is possible that you may have installed tires that were too large or stretched proper-sized tires too much while installing them.

gg1man posted:

I have to admit the traction tire bunching idea makes the most sense.

Good luck and let us know what you find.  

I'd try it without the traction tires, if it still does it then you know they are not the problem. If it doesn't then no need for further detective work.

 If they are too wide, they may not be rubbing but with the load may twist the truck slightly and you loose the common connection. It is more of an issue where BOTH outer rails are not connected to each other. Don't give up! (At least not yet ) Lots of help for you here on the OGR Forum.

Thank you i will try these suggestions and check later and post the outcone. thank you guys

Dave

Regarding traction tires, I always replace worn-out tires with OEM tires that are one size smaller than the manufacturer's size to avoid slipping. Rather making your favorite diesel a shelf queen, send it to one of the expert repair techs on this forum. I use GGG.

Also, you said the locomotive would run fine without a load behind it, so an electrical short internally isn't the problem. 

Well for now is a layout king instead of a shelf queen. going to try and look at it again today. i have alot of replys that will give me some opportunities to see if i can figure it out. i will update later on what i accomplished if i do.  Thank you all again for your input. i appreciate all of them.

Dave

Before opening the engine, try pulling (gently) on the coupler while you are running it. Then try grabbing the engine shell while it is running to simulate load. Maybe the coupler is causing the short. At the same time, you can observe the wheels and traction tires. 

George

Ok i put the Santefe on the 30in test track found it. turned it on performed flawlessly .  even holding the couplers in both direction causing resistance and it didnt shut down.  i have noticed the lighted cars being pulled now by my PRR 260 2.0 are flickering quite a bit and sometimes out for a second and come back on even in the back straights. i cleaned the wheels on the lighted cars a few days ago? the PRR 260 has no problem  pulling them even with the fkickering lights but that had PS2.0 and a battery to compinsate for power loss to the engine so it works fine. thats my idea why anyway .  i checked the track voltage in several spots and its reading 19 volts. i even soldered the hook up track and ran a power jumper to the back side of the layout. the tracks are all snapped together. its lionel fastrack and its fine but not made to be snapped and unsnapped every year. even though i have voltage maybe i have bad track pieces? or maybe those lighted cars are not making good contact and causing ptoblems with my santefe engine which is PS3.0 and has no battery to compinsate for irratic power to the rails if that's the issue or the lighted cars causing a problem. i cant just replace all the track because i dont have the money and the layout took me a week to build. hope this helps and someone can help me

Picture of my powered A Unit with dual motors both working flawlessly on test track but on the layout shes still the Static display King of the carpet

Gonna jump in here kinda from GGG train of thought...a thorough look at all the leads at the trucks including the ground leads,there connector positions and routing all visible but somewhat difficult to get at without sometimes  loosening the can motor at the truck. 4 leads all together..2 per truck. Next may be component level trouble shooting which requires a different level of expertise.

Took off all the lighted santefe cars and the engine is performing well all comands  even 5 mph crawl around layout with no hestitations or power fluctuation sound from pS3.0 sound.

I think it might be one of the cars. now i will go thru the process of elimination and be back with results. hope this was the problem engine seems fine now with no lighted cars on track

The PS3 super capacitor will act like a battery over dead spots. However, if a lighted car shorts the track just enough to not throw the breaker, it could reset the engine. What power supply are you using? 

BTW, the layout looks great!

George

George S posted:

The PS3 super capacitor will act like a battery over dead spots. However, if a lighted car shorts the track just enough to not throw the breaker, it could reset the engine. What power supply are you using? 

BTW, the layout looks great!

George

1000w brick into the TIU. I do have anothet i think 750w brick i have but i right now am only using the 1000w to run the tiu and the trains and thank you great information.  i didnt yet check the cars but i think one of them has a issue when i check them i will post a follow up

   Busy cab Chatter 

As I understand it, you can pull unpowered freight cars without incident.  It's only when you pull lighted passenger cars.  If you set the engine to 5 sMPH or whatever and manually push the string of lighted passenger cars a few inches behind the engine (uncoupled) does the engine still stop?

I had an intermittent problem with lighted passenger cars a couple of years ago.  It had to do with the solder contact on a pickup roller.  I had one that was just slightly able to touch the frame of the car.  What made this odd was it only happened when I backed the train.  But when I found the problem, it made sense.  The pickup rollers move to slightly different angles depending on the direction of the car.  In my case, the car was positioned so that backing up caused the momentary short.

Move the pickup rollers back and forth on each of your passenger cars to see if you can get any part of it to touch the frame.  In my case, the simple fix was to bend the tab where the wire was soldered so that it could no longer hit the frame.

Tony

I think i found out the problem

 some old track thats not connecting well.  when i run the engine alone its runs fine. when i even hook up any one lighted car and it crosses over onto another piece of turn track it shuts down the engine. it doesnt matter what lighted car. some of the track is old and worn out from being pulled apart and put back together so many times and i think the current isnt flowing from one track to another very well.  the engine alone is only fits on one piece of fastrack at a time but the lighted cars are longer and cross over more than one track at a time. i put one lighted car on and as soon as the engine went into the turn with the lighted car it shut down. i took the lighted car off no problems and it didnt matter which lighted car.  im hoping about $60 worth of replacement track will tighten up the front of the layout going into the front turn where it seems to be happening .  or is there any other ideas what it may be.  im not giving up on this.  thank you guys again for all your great trouble shooting ideas. 

This floor layout is getting to hard for me im getting old 55.  maybe next year if im here a table layout in the living room and the tree can go in the kitchen just dont tell my wife that..

Im a big guy and that makes it even harder on the ground.  my secret is at night i roll around alot on the floor to get from one area to the other. getting up is the hard part.  i love trains and i have a 7 yr old grandson who has shared that with me since he was a baby and he has a passion for it like i do. to bad its only at christmas. i could get lost in a nice layout and love detail. i ordered some led lights for a 1/43 scale police car i already drilled the holes and preped the car so when the lights arive i can just install them and hook it up to add some more lights to the layout and i think it will look kind of cool like the ones i have see at train shows. My brother has quite a layout that took him many years to build and he can operate 7 ogauge trains at one time thru his mountains and over his bridges. The elecrtical work on his layout under the track is amazing and very neat and marked peefectly. He inspired me but i cant afford the layout he made but im very happy with my Christmas layout. I am truly blessed

im done rambeling. 

God Bless you guys and Have a very Safe and Happy Holiday season.

Logan my grandson who means the world to me. 

If the problem is indeed some section of FasTrack, you can remove the pins, clean them and distort the rail slightly for a better electrical connection (an easy fix).  You have to lift the tabs on the track beneath the rails and lift each rail far enough to disengage the pins.

You also said the problem occurs when the engine enters a curve, which suggests a possible short when the wheels pivot, if the lights also go out on your lighted cars.  If the lights stay lit, it suggests an open circuit in the engine.

This is also a different problem then you first described which also suggest something is loose inside your engine, possibly an electrical connector or a poorly connected wire.  You can check another engine (preferably conventional control) through the questionable track section.  If the rollers are far enough apart on the other engine so that the rollers are on more than one track section, just put a piece of paper under the roller on the good track section and see if you can run the engine.  That will give the track a good test under load vs an led light or multi-meter, which is almost no load. 

You can also put jumpers across the pins and that will determine which pins are bad, if there are any bad pins.

Good luck...

Earl

I'm glad you isolated the problem! Fastrack has some cool features that can be leveraged on a floor layout. The rails are attached to the roadbed by tabs on the underside of that track. Many pieces also have terminal strips. On other track, we might need to solder sections together or solder on leads between sections. With Fastrack, you can buy crimp-on o-ring electrical connectors, unbend the tabs, put the ring over the tabs and bend the tabs back into place. You can crimp on any different length of wire under the roadbed, between track sections. this can help bridge bad connections. Also, look to see if any of your track has an insulated rail. This would mean that there is no flat metal connector on the underside of the track between the outside rails. This can sometimes cause problems too. My bet is that your pickup roller on the lighted car is bridging two sections of center rail that are not getting a good connection. Your engine probably has two pickup rollers and the car has one, so it doesn't effect the engine. Also, on carpet, the track may flex with a train on it and break connection between sections.  I would add some power leads under the track to bridge electrical sections better. One last thing, some Fastrack has a notched channel under the track in the middle that allows you to run wire between sections easily.  Hope this helps.

BTW, I know how you feel being a big guy rolling around on the floor, setting up the Christmas layout. But hey, 55 is not that old and this keeps you young.

George

I dont know about these o crimp rings? that sounds like a great idea and i have alot of solder.  thanks great trouble shooting. i will see what i can do and post it later   thank  you

Dave

Lowes2win posted:

I dont know about these o crimp rings? that sounds like a great idea and i have alot of solder.  thanks great trouble shooting. i will see what i can do and post it later   thank  you

 

Dave

Here is a picture from Menards at this link https://www.menards.com/main/e...=7809790277245921012

I am not sure the correct size. All of the hardware stores carry them in the electrical section in at least three sizes. 

You basically want to get the ring under the tabs that the arrow points to in the attached picture.

You may also notice the spade terminal connectors just above the arrow. Lionel sells wire with the lugs attached, but it is expensive and I haven't found the aftermarket lugs in the hardware stores.  I am sure you could order them, but I realize that time is ticking during the season.

I'm not following your logic here. If the track was the problem, the locomotive would have problems whether was running alone, with one car, with two cars or whatever. The length of the train over the track sections makes no difference.

You haven't isolated the problem at all.

FasTrack sections do have electrical problems, so if you want to improve the track, that's certainly a good idea. But it won't solve your problem with this locomotive.

To others responding, please re-read the posts from the beginning. We're muddling the issue further with each illogical progression of cause-and-effect conclusions here.

Jim R. posted:

I'm not following your logic here. If the track was the problem, the locomotive would have problems whether was running alone, with one car, with two cars or whatever. The length of the train over the track sections makes no difference.

You haven't isolated the problem at all.

 

Wrong. A faulty track joint on the center rail can cause issues with cars that have single pick-up rollers. Most engines have dual pickup rollers. When a roller 'bridges' a bad joint with a single roller, it can spark or short. This doesn't happen with a dual roller, because the roller over the track joint is solidly connected to the  second roller that is on a solid rail. I have seen this happen. It is a failure scenario, but not easy to replicate. I figure it happens much more often on carpet layouts, since the track can flex as a train passes over.

I am not sure why the engine resets. The super capacitor should hold the engine in a powered on state similar to a battery, but it could be some overload circuitry in the engine that shuts it down, or a bad component.

You just shouldn't be so declarative that this can't be the problem.