MTH Protosound 2, GP38 Diesel operation, bell keeps ringing, conventional except for the Bells and whistle won't respond

@Carl_Wicks_177 posted:

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We only have the MTH 1000W Transformer that came with the MTH starter set and the MTH control panel, with the bell whistle and direction buttons. The MTH set is 24VDC where the Lionel set is 15VDC so we have the new to us GP-38 on the MTH track.

Just to be clear, do you have the MTH Z-1000 transformer/controller as below (it's 100W vs. 1000W):

And what do you mean by MTH set is 24VDC?

Also, do you have a multi-meter that can measure AC Volts and DC Volts?

It looks like the the Z-1000 you have posted but it is actually the Z-750 Version not the Z-1000. yes I do have a multi-meter

It shows 24V AC output on the transformer

Do you have red to the center rail?

Yes.  John,

I have the red to the center rail, when you reverse the polarity as directed to in the troubleshooting instructions for the engine, the horn sound constantly instead of the bell.

OK. You're doing your homework.

Is it practical to put BOTH your MTH PS2 GP38 and your MTH PS1 F-3 on the track?  It's not to physically run them but to check the bell and whistle behavior when you apply power from the Z-750 transformer and controller.  Or maybe you already did this.

I knew I had a Z-750 transformer in a box somewhere and I finally found it.  To confirm, your Z750 transformer says 24V AC output (as opposed to 21V AC):

I'm not saying this is a problem but just like to put all the cards on the table so to speak!

Using multimeter set to DC Volts (red test probe to center rail, black test probe to outer rail):

- Don't have a GP38 but put a PS2 diesel on track.  Set throttle to half-way of range.  Engine starts up.

- DC volts bounces around but measures less than +/-0.2V DC.

- Press WHISTLE.  DC volts bounces around but between +3.5V to +4.5V DC. Horn blows.

- Press BELL.  DC volts bounces around but between -3.5V and -4.5V DC.  Bell toggles on/off.

Mine looks like your transformer except it reads 120V 150W input and 24V 3.75A 90VA out.

I put the F3 on the track with her, the bells and whistles don't respond on the F3 while the GP38 blares the horn and bells. Both light up like normal (lights) The F3 operates normally once I remove the GP-38. Ill poke around with the measurements and report back.

God Bless the designer of the Amplifier and Speaker Board, that's the first time I heard the GP with the horn and bells at the same time. Wow!

Yes. the signal voltages match exactly with the corresponding button between the center rail and the rail closest to the MTH Lock-on.

Question: Our temporary layout is basically a rectangle, the rail with the signal voltage is the rail on the outside of the rectangle loop. Correct?

Presumably you have MTH Realtrax?  In which case, yes, the lock-on BLACK is only connected to the outer rail closest to the side the lock-on plugs in.  Without getting into the "nuances" of why other track systems electrically connect the outer-rails within each piece of track section is a separate discussion.

Meanwhile...back at the ranch.  I re-read your original post.  As I understand it, the GP38 was purchased used.  What assurance do you have that it is functional in conventional mode?

Hopefully one of the MTH/DCS gurus will chime in, but I can imagine a failure-mode where an engine can function in DCS command-mode but exhibit the behavior indicated in conventional mode.  In other words, the previous owner who only operated in DCS command-mode could say in good faith that the engine works great.

Yes. That's the picture exactly like ours with the MTH loc-on. The owner only ran it in DCS mode. It functioned correctly when he demonstrated it. We ran it for quite some time while he talked about DCS and showed us how he had it set up on his layout. He said that he only used DCS and something else on his HO trains.

I thought that MTH Engines except ProtoSound 3 would run in DCS and conventual mode by choosing the mode with the bell and whistle button menu so it never occurred to me that it wouldn't nor to him.

Susanne and I will definitely do our homework before we add anything else to our train lay out that is supposed to be plug n play.

  I can't thank you enough for the help and your time.

Best Regards,

Carl

I’m no MTH guru, but that GP-38 is from the turn of the century. If you haven’t already done so, or you don’t know for sure the previous owner has already done so, I’d recommend installing a fresh battery. I don’t know if it will fix the problem, but it couldn’t hurt.

Yep that's correct it is a early 2000 Engine. The battery has been replaced with a new MTH unit and it was charged overnight to full power before we installed it. The old battery we took out was at full charge. The engine is in Mint condition except the bell/controller issue.

Thank you for the assistance.

Re-Reading the MTH GP38-2 operating instructions this morning it states,

"*ProtoSounds®2 needs over 14 volts of power to work properly. Overloading or using in-line accessories with this transformer may lower the peak voltage below ProtoSounds® minimum requirements."

This MTHZ-750 was built for a 1999 MTH Proto Sound 1 Starter Set Engine. Can it simply be that it isn't powerful enough to supply the Rated power to the GP38-2 Proto Sound 2 Engine??

For starters are you home today?

And do you have your operating manual for the gp38?

i know you're new to this,but do you have any plans on buying a Z4000?

My game plan is to have you do a factory reset

tie the outside rails together. If that doesn't fix it you need to have the engine tested with another set-up.

Good morning Joe,

Yes. I am home. My legs don't work so well these days.

We are planning on building a O Scale layout, we are still in the planning stage, how we want it to look and elevations etc. we found helpful material on this forum for that part. We are going to have three separate train track systems for the three eras that we want to model.

So yes we will be getting a transformer or transformers  for the trains.

How do you tie the rails together?

Carl, I have a z750 transformer that does this exact same thing. Unfortunately the problem is with the 750 controller (the brick power supply is okay). Try a different transformer if you have one available.

As a simple test, you can use test leads from your Z750 power brick barrel jack and apply power directly to the track to startup your engine.  This engine should start up at high voltage (in Neutral) but the bell nor whistle will continuously operate.

You are a angel !!!  It starts up normally like it did when we had it on his DCS layout.

So I need to start planning on buying a transformer sooner than later or it just theZ-750 controller panel needs to be replaced?

Do you have the manual for that engine?

Yes. I have the MTH manual for mine which is a 20-2255-1 Santa Fe

OK the first thing you wanna do for troubleshooting is put your F3 on the tracks and let’s test the functions and make sure that your transformer is operating properly.  If you can get your smart phone down to your layout and get right in front of it it’ll make it a lot easier

Okay. Done. She runs and sounds like normal all buttons work as they should.

For starters I’m using a Z 4000 here but the color buttons are the same and when you start a PS-1 engine up it has to be under around 12 V or so and when you start it you should get two clangs if you start it on to higher voltage when you bring the voltage down you get a whooshing sound

let’s make sure the proto sounds work properly.  With the engine running forward if you press and hold the yellow bell button after a few seconds you will hear a wooshing noise, Now you can release the yellow bell button.The bell keep ringing until you hit the direction button this is the freight yard sounds  now you have to cycle through the direction button  a couple times until the engine takes off on its own and when the bell stops ringing you now have full control of the engine again .This is in the manual under freight yard sounds so start with this and it will be telling us the transformer is operating properly

Ummm, Okay. Yep that all worked, it was locked in forward after the yellow button test. I cycled the throttle a couple of times and held the yellow button again while it was running to get it back to the FWD-NEU-REV mode. I don't have the instruction paperwork on the F3 it didn't come with the set we purchased and I couldn't find Pre-2000 on MTH's website so this was a shot in the dark.

How are you doing are you still there ?

OK I read this wrong the test you just did most likely made sure the transformer was OK it looks like your GP 38 is PS two so do you have that operating manual

oh My! I am so sorry Joe The F3 is a Proto sound 1 starter set.

The GP38 is a Proto sound 2 Engine with the 9V Battery

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20dl13094i.pdf

That’s OK up until this point we were only checking to make sure the transformer is operating properly now do you have the GP 38 operating manual

OK manual or no manual we’re going to do a factory reset here and pushing the buttons is kind of tricky but I was just practicing on one of my engines and I’m ready to go get your engine it’ a PS2 GP 38 get it on the track Started an in neutral

Okay she's running

Just as a side note here on PS2 To make a ringing bell stop ringing you have to push and hold the yellow bell button until the ringing stops then release it

OK now for the factory reset you’re going to have to push the white button fairly quickly and then the yellow button five times pretty fast.  If done properly after pressing The yellow button five times the horn will blow twice if it does not you have to try again it just took me about 4 times to get it right

After you do it and you get those two horn blasts after the five yellow button pushes shut it off and start it back up and see what happens

I can't stop the Bell, it's constant. I can see the Loc-On light flicker when I push or hold in the Bell button, same with the Horn button no response on either??

Do not push and hold the white button you have to tap it really fast so the horn doesn’t blow and then five real quick  5 on the yellow. If done properly after the five quick yellows the horn will blast twice I’ve been doing this for many years and it still took me about four times to do it right I got an engine right in front of me running That I’m testing it with

I put it into forward with the direction button and that stopped the bell, absolutely no bell of horn button(s) response at all now. I stopped the Engine and now it's setting idling on the track with sounds and announcement's as it should.