MTH PS1 transformer conflicts

I had an older PS1 loco that would do the same things on my MTH z1000 transformer.

I put the same train on my test track with a much older Lionel TW 175 Train Master and the unit worked 100%.

I was told it has something to do with the Quasi Board or the algorythms or something like that.

Pretty weird that an MTH train does not work on a MTH transformer.

That was the only time I had that issue.

I believe there are known problems with the CW80 and PS1 engines. MTH does not list the CW80 as a recommended transformer in their manuals.

Its likely that the CW-80 and PS-1 dont work well together. PS-1 needs to be at less tan 8-10 volts on the track to leave reset position. You might try lowering the throttle to shut off and follow with slowly raing the throttle to about the 8 volt position. It might start movibg foward and may wok normally with the direction button.

Early PS-1s can be a bit quirky. As an example running the PS-1 Empire state express with the variable channel on the DCS set you are not able to get it to leave reset unless you lowere the source voltage to 0 and then raise it slowly to get the engine to move. After that it works fine with the DCS handheld.

Steve,

MTH Proto Sound be it 1, 2, or whatever does not like the Lionel CW-80. Can you beg or borrow at least a Z1K? If not, do you know someone with a Z4K? To do a reset without a Z4K is at best questionable. Your best bet would be over on the DCS Forum. It's been well over 20 yrs since I even tinkered with PS-1 & 2. Memory is one thing I no longer have, I apologize. Maybe GGG or Gunrunnerjohn will chime in. 

Steve the lionel CW80 and the mth Z500 and z750 and z1000 will not work on PS1 engines because they are chopped sine wave transformers and some PS2. You need a z4000 or lionel zw or atlas 80 watt transformer etc. that has pure sine wave.  

I think you can add the MW to the list of no no transformers. 

Anyone else still got one of those packed in a box someplace besides me?  

Eric

The battery is not charged. Everytime you apply power to a PS1, you get two bells. hitting the direction button cuts the power and you get two bells again. If it has a white MTH battery in it. throw it away and replace it. 

To start a PS1 loco, apply high voltage and then back down the throttle till you hear air release. Then stop backing the throttle. You should hear one clank. Then you press the direction button> if you get three clanks, it is scrambled.

Defiantly do not use a CW80. 

Not packed in a box. I use mine to power accessories.  The two variable dials on the MW make them an ideal accessory transformer.

With regard to the PS1, my youngest son has a Z1000 and has operated PS1 engines on his layout with no issues.  I also have some old PS1's and have operated those using his Z1000, again with no problems.  I will agree with earlier posters that a CW80 won't work with a PS1.  I purchased the Z1000 for my son after he was unable to operate his first PS1 using a CW80.

Curt

Steve, All good advice above.

Need a good charged battery.  An alkaline can work temporarily for testing.

Need to let it start up, and than make sure Voltage is less than 10V for the initial coming out of the reset state.  After that you can change directions from any voltage.

Need something closer to Pure Sine wave.

Some if not all of the PS-1 Geeps were very early MTH PS-1.  So they are more sensitive to AC voltage.  Stuff made in 97 and later are less sensitive to chopped sine wave.

Do you have an old PW 1033 transformer to try?  G

You can use the CW-80 just fine.  After putting a known good battery in the locomotive, put a lighted caboose or passenger car on the track with the locomotive.  Now when you power up to under 10 volts it will cycle out of reset when you push the direction button.  The lighted car is the key to get PS-1 locomotives to work flawlessly with the CW-80, and the CW-80 is an excellent transformer to run those locomotives with.  I'm able to run them nice and slow with the CW-80 over any other transformer I have used.

One thing that strikes a curious note. If this is truly the ideal answer to the problem. Why hasn't Lionel or MTH acknowledged the same? 

My guess would be MTH doesn't want all the support calls this would probably generate when people had problems, and they want to sell MTH transformers? Lionel wants to sell their engines so they probably don't care if it works with MTH engines or not?

Continuing along the lines of your question, if this is really the fix, would a magic light bulb work the same as the lighted caboose? I don't have any PS1's or a CW-80, was just curious?

I can only relate personal experience.  When my son first tried a PS1 using a CW80, the battery was new, having been installed in front of us before we left the store in Pennsylvania with the engine.  I specifically requested and paid for a new battery because of all the horror stories about PS1 engines and bad batteries screwing up the boards.  When we got back to Georgia and my son tried the engine on his layout, he had a complete freight train behind the engine including a lighted caboose.  The engine would not work. 

I called the dealer we had purchased the engine from and he immediately asked me what kind of transformer we were using.  When told it was a CW80 he said they wouldn't work with a PS1 and we needed to purchase an MTH transformer.  The dealer was in PA and we were back in Georgia when the conversation took place so he had no vested interest in trying to push an MTH transformer.  We went to a local train store where the owner basically confirmed what the dealer in PA had said.  We purchased a Z1000 at the local train store and the engine ran flawlessly.

I'll append this by also noting we asked the local train store to test the engine on his in store test track using an MTH transformer and it ran fine there.  That is what convinced me to buy the Z1000.

Curt

1)  It's a good idea to make sure your battery is fully charged.  The test is whether your engine goes through the shutdown sequence when you power down for more than a second or two.  If not, you need to either charge the battery or replace it with a new battery or a BCR.  As noted above, you can temporarily put a basic 9V battery in for testing.  If you're symptoms remain, go to #2.

2)  Some modern electronic transformers, including the CW-80, consistently send a small amount of voltage to the track...even when the handle is all the way down.  For PS-1 engines to work properly, they need a complete interruption in power to cycle the train from neutral to forward/reverse.  The "light bulb trick" (putting a lighted caboose or passenger car on the track) further reduces the small amount of voltage coming from the transformer.  Sometimes it works, but in my experience, PS-1 engines tend to be sensitive to the tiniest amount of voltage.  Older transformers don't have this problem.  Also, I don't think the Z-1000 leaves residual voltage on the track when the handle is down.  So, this may not be your problem.

3)  SHARK TOOTH SINE WAVE.  Someone mentioned this, and it may be causing your problem.  Old coil transformers like the KW and ZW sent out a pure, smooth sine wave signal.  The vast majority of the new electronic transformers send out a chopped sine wave that resembles a shark tooth.  The electronics in older PS-1 engines will not cycle out of neutral if they "see" a chopped shark tooth sine wave.  I believe there is a list of engines affected by this on MTH's website (I have a Premier BN GP-30 with this problem).  The PS-1 electronics were eventually modified so they could work with electronic transformers with chopped sine waves.  However, if you have one of the older PS-1 engines, it won't work with the CW-80 or Z-1000, because both send out   chopped sine waves. 

In conclusion, after you verify that you have a fully charged battery, try running the engine with an old-school coil wound transformer.  Some newer transformers will also work, such as the Z-4000 and the Atlas/Williams starter set transformers.           

I have a dozen PS-1 locomotives, ranging from the very early ones to the last made.  Some run without the lighted car just fine, like my PPC street car and Dreyfuss Hudson.  Others, like my PRR T-1 and DL-109, will absolutely not run without a lit car, and they do exactly what the OP says, go ding ding when you push the direction button.  Others like my EP-5 can't make up their minds and will run fine some days without a lit car and other days need it to work.  Some will work, but just blow their horn constantly like my Cabforward.  And I have all three road numbers of the 20-2186-1 Chessie GP38-2, and they all act differently.

The EP-5 was the 1st one I had that even acted weird on a CW-80, and I bought a Z-1000 because my LHS told me the CW-80 wouldn't work, but then the EP-5 started working again, so I didn't try it until I got the 1st GP-38-2.  It had issues with both, but ran more reliably with the CW-80, so I boxed the Z-1000 back up.  Then when I got my ZW-C and it said in the manual to use a lit car if your other brand locomotive's horn was always blowing and that's when I started testing and found out that the caboose/passenger car is what fixed things.  Because I always run with either I didn't even know that I had locomotives that wouldn't work without such until I started testing them all.  And they have to be on the same power block, so  even if you have two blocks on the same transformer, if the locomotive and caboose are in different blocks you'll have issues getting them to go again if they are powered down.  Once I found this out I have not had any problems with any new to me PS-1 locomotive I get.

have you checked the 9 volt battery and make sure it good!When in doubt!! Replace the batter with a new BCR red battery and then do a factory reset reset 18 should bring it back to life!DON"T power it up if your  UNSURE of your battery or you Might burn up the boards and there not cheap! do you know have to do  a reset 18!

Alan

Also what kind of transformer are u using? 40-4000 mth or conventional zw lionel?

the Best thing i can suggest is to put a track clip on with light installed that is on any time the track is powered up! if it is truly different transformer type the load added from the track clip light will lower the voltage just enough so the voltage will be below 10 volts and it won't matter with whatever engine you use, and you won't have to have a lighted car on thew track if you don't w3ant to!OK

This will work1 this will work as long as there are no battery issues with your train!

Alan Mancus

Your engine will switch direction no problem just by cycling power on n off!

I would not use an old ZW without modern fast acting breakers or fast blow fuses or both for any modern engines. The Z4000 is a modern transformer and is better suited for modern engines. A modern ZW-L or the Powerhouse 180's for command control would be my preference. However, the Z4000 may be a better choice for PS1 engines than the ZW-L? I only have PS2 & PS3, no PS1's.

IF you plan on buying anymore PS1 or other MTH products you should plan on upgrading your power. To experience the true Proto Sound you'll need a Z4K. You will be thrilled on what comes out of your engine. It takes the Z4K to access all the steps in the PS1 programs easily. I experienced those early days of QSI /ProtoSound. What an era.

i have advocated using z-4000 transformer on ps-1 locos for years.with the programming buttons the z4000 was designed to use on these locos to access their features. on a recent thread i stated i could not think 1 reason why you wouldnt use a z4000  with ps-1. it was shot down as a waste of money by one of this forums topranking members.-jim