MTH railking 0-6-0 b6 steam engine

Michael,

     I absolutely had the same problem and it's been a bit of a nightmare. I got mine about 5 months ago. Took it out of the box and tested it. All seemed fine until I ran it in reverse with a consist behind. Well, as you described....it made a grinding/chattering noise and would either get stuck or jerk back. Especially on curves. I found the following....a bent side rod that was contacting a guide rail in reverse. I straightened it back out....no change. I also found a loose connection at the engine clip to the drawbar. Clicked it in....no change. Then I listened carefully to the noise (with my ear near the shell) when running it. It sounded like gear noise. I opened the shell and sure enough....loose motor mounts. I tightened it up and for a month (running it only infrequently) it was fine. But then it started again. 

   As much as I hate to send things in to the bottomless pit of MTH warranty repair, I did. Well, it was gone for over a month and when I got it back it was worse. Now, it ran herky jerky in forward all the way around the track. I called them up and they said to send it back and they would fix it "priority" and I'd get it back much sooner. Nonsense. It took longer the second time. Apparently, it was a tach reader issue and of course, they didn't have parts. Eventually, it came back and seems to be working ok.  I wrote a letter to Mike Wolf after that to complain about their service turnaround and horrendous parts availability/ordering system. I have not received any kind of response.

     So, bottom line.....you most likely won't be able to fix this yourself. However, if I were you, I'd contact one of the MTH service techs in the Forum and send it to one of them. You'll get it back faster and you'll be dealing with someone you can actually speak with. Keep us posted as to what happens with it.

Roger

The tach reader interface in PS/3 reacts a bit different than PS/2, so you'll get some interesting effects.  I worked on one that would run around two or three laps and then do a stutter step and then continue.  The issue was that the tach reader was too far from the flywheel, I shimmed it up, and smooth as silk.

If the PS/3 locomotive totally loses the tach signal, it doesn't run away like the PS/2 models, it runs a bit and decides it doesn't have a tach signal and then stops and tries again.  So, a tach failure looks different for PS/3.

Tach doesn't explain grinding noise.  Sounds like something is binding.  I would start by removing motor and see how the running gear turns checking linkage and quartering.  Inspect gears for any burrs, grit etc...  Then install motor and turn fly wheel by hand to see if you can detect any binding and where as the drive wheels rotate through full revolution.  G

To clarify the problem(s) I had with mine. The original problem was the motor mount....the motor loosened and it was grinding on the gears. They replaced that the first time around but then the tach reader failed. It was 2 different issues. 

And GGG is a tech and I've sent him some work and he's excellent. 

-Roger

Roger, It is just like you said it acts erratic around curves and going over the switches. I will check for bent side rod, will look for drawbar connection. The noise sounds like coming from the shell and check for loose motor mounts. I will try contacting an MTH service techs in the forum if all else fails. Thank you for the advice.

Roger just saw your second post thanks for clarifying. I will reach out to GGG after I check motor mounts.

Michael,

 I actually was shocked when I corrected the bent side rod and it didn't solve it. I could see it was hitting the guide when in reverse (where the problem was worse). As I wasn't sure where the noise was coming from, I initially thought it was a bad connection. I've had that happen, garbling the sounds. I found a bad connection, but it didn't do the trick (nice QC, by the way....jeez). The motor mount was it.....it was jumping on the main gear. Put your finger on the back of the cab and try to run it in reverse. Godawful sound. When I got it back, that was the first thing I did....put my finger on the cab. No problem. Until I ran it in forward and now we had a whole other thing going on. Back it went for it's "priority" fix.    I suspect we will  find others with B-6 issues like ours.  And yes, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend George (GGG).

Roger

Well I checked motor mounts today they were tight, it doesn't look like anything is hitting. It goes forward and reverse the same way, with it getting stuck in the curves and by the switches.  It seems that once it gets going at about 27-30 mph on the dcs it runs a little better still slowing into the curves.  But I actually have to push it along to get it going that fast. Still have grinding noise I cannot seem to get rid of. So I will take recommendations on a good MTH service tech who might be able to help me out.  GGG I saw your reply I am a rookie at this so trying to do what you said I would be a little nervous about pulling it apart. I will see the replies when I return from work.

Mike

Mike,

Did you try my suggestion of putting your finger against the back of the cab and then trying to run it in reverse against that pressure? Nasty noise on mine. Gear noise. 

Roger

Mike,  If this is under warranty, should be, I would send back to MTH.  They need to resolve this especially if mechanical issues.  G

If you haven't already, check the gearbox cover screws. These need to be really tight.

These locos are overdue for a redesign.  If the loco had a proper gearbox, with the worm gear separate from the motor shaft, wheels and axles replaceable as a unit, and a chassis with a bottom plate you could have just ordered the parts and fixed it yourself.

The system on your B-6 (which is widely used by Lionel & MTH) originated after the war with the 736, 681, American Flyer, etc.  If anything goes wrong with the worm wheel, driving wheels or axles you have to replace the whole frame, which is probably half the value of the locomotive.  If it's even available as a separate part.  Why don't they wise up??

Probably true, but don't hold your breath, that's how a vast majority of them are made, and I don't see that changing anytime soon!

Hi John,

I need you to explain this to my PS3 Alco RS3 Diesel . It was running ok after I had it serviced for a gear chatter issue you weighed in on a while ago then stopped and went into full runaway mode. Have a read about tach issues but not sure what to do. Tried factory reset with no change. Now it just sits on the "needs work" shelf mocking me! Sigh. I have PS2's and 3's and have been luckier quality-wise with the 2's. They do less but seem a bit more robust.

Scott

John (and others): The American Models S gauge Pacific and some if not all of of MTH's HO-scale steam locos are made the "right way," as I describe above.  As usual most O-gaugers don't know better, and tend to buy what looks good or for nostalgia.  So we get the inferior product.  Grrr!  

I am not sure it does behave different.  When there is a failure it runs away.  An intermittent tach whether wire fault, or reading issues (dirty/bad tape segments) will act erratic.  G

I saw a tach reader totally off the motor down at MTH at the ASC class.  As they explained the operation, and how I observed it actually worked, is as follows.

The locomotive takes off briefly, and then notices no feedback, so it cuts off briefly and then starts again.  I never reaches anything like full speed, but runs in fits-n-starts with no tach signal.  It's different than the PS/2 that just takes off at full speed and never varies until it loses power or flies off the tracks.

Interesting, that wasn't pointed out when I was at the training.  An early steamer I worked on had the classic no tach symptoms unit I replaced it. I will have to call for the update.  It certainly makes sense to write code that way.  Better to hop home then full speed! G

John,

That's exactly what happened with my B-6. As I mentioned, I sent it in for a mechanical issue (which they said they fixed) and got it back with what you described. I didn't even bother to test it to see if the mechanical issue was solved. I called them, got an RMA and back it went.  The second time they replaced the tach reader. It seems to be running ok now. After 2 1/2 months of downtime, it should be.

Roger

The reason I got to see this first-hand was one came in and was worked on during the ASC training, and that's what it did on the test track. 

As part of the ASC class, we spent part of a day just working on returns under the supervision of the MTH techs.  One of the PS/3 ones I fixed has the tach reader too far from the flywheel, that was an interesting effect!   Somehow it managed to affect the audio as well, occasionally it would give a machine-gun effect in the audio as it stuttered, very cool.

John,

So it sounds like I have two MTH engines where the tach reading function has failed completely. Assuming the tach reader itself might be ok, is there a component it communicates with on a circuit board that I may have damaged?

I ask this wierd question because I have had two "runaway" type failures within a month or two of each other. One is a PS3 and the other a non-proto starter set steamer. The root cause may have been dirty wall outlet power getting into the track power. I've since corrected this with a line filter.

Thanks, Scott

Yes for Proto 2 there is a chip, probably on PS-3 also.  For non Proto???? Not sure what that is, but if you mean PS-1 no, LocoSounds Yes.

Without seeing the actual engine, there's no way to diagnose the exact failure, at least I don't know how it would be done.

The actual encoder rarely fails, usually it's a broken wire, the spacing of the encoder is incorrect, or the bracket or encoder has moved and isn't aligned with the flywheel.  Of course, it's possible that the board or encoder has failed, but that's not the first thing I'd think of.

First step is to look at the encoder, wiring, and connectors.

Thanks GGG and GRJ. The starter set steamer is a Loco Sounds. It has the dog bone drawbar/connector I love so much and the tender is full of electronics. Will follow John's advice and check for something obvious. Both engines were cruising along nice and smooth at fixed throttle and then stopped and would only go forward at full speed. Definitely has me scratching my head .

Both of them stopped at the same time?

Sorry John, I should have been more clear. The fails occurred about 2 months apart but the circumstances were identical. Running along at fixed throttle and then quitting, then only going forward at full speed after that. I had a thread on filtering wall power where you helped out (thanks) and these fails occurred before the Furman line filter was installed. Hence my concern that I somehow fried something during each event. That both engines would fail the same way about 2 months apart due to a loose tach reader or wire seems too much of a coincidence. I'm not afraid to experiment on the starter set steamer but the PS3 is a different matter.

Thanks George. I'll check what I can. After that, the PS3 may have to go in for repair with someone that's qualified.

I still think the wiring or connections are a LOT more likely to be the issue than a bad tach reader.

John, While true, I have had to replace plenty of tach readers.  I stock both reader and component.  Even had one new part I replaced not work.

If we go on the premise of bad AC power was being used and that did it, I would think it is quite possible.

Speed control issues are very complex because it can be tach reader, spacing, wiring, harness, tether (for steam), tach tape, op amp on the PS-2 power supply, turned off.  Lot of issues to work through.  G

I've only had one bad tach reader, but I suspect I haven't seen nearly as many as you have.   I've had plenty of broken wires and loose connections, if the wires aren't properly secured on the motor, they bend at the tach reader and break within a few months with any use.

Is this really an option? My nearest MTH dealer is 90 minutes away in traffic and that's on a good day. Also, they were less than enthusiastic about servicing an engine I purchased on line and stated they would just send it to MTH. Why bother with that when I can send it myself. I don't care about service under warranty and am willing to pay directly services including all shipping of course. I just hate to give up on this PS3 engine.

Hi Scott,

Yes, I was hoping one of the Forum techs would tell you to send it to him. You won't end up giving up on it. It's just that I was hoping for an option other than sending it to MTH as their turnaround time is pretty horrible. But in the end (whether it takes one visit or two in my case), it will end up fixed. 

Roger

Scott, I am an MTH ASC and I can do the repair.  E-mail is in my profile.  G

George, that would be great and much appreciated. It had been recently serviced by MTH on a noise related issue. So to save myself embarrassment I'm going to look under the chassis and make sure its not something like a loose wire. Then will contact you via email after ruling that out. Thanks!

Looks like I will be sending in the 0-6-0 B6 switcher to MTH for service, it is under warranty.  I know I will probably not have the engine for a while. I just hope when I receive it back it won't have any hiccups. Roger tried the engine in reverse it acts erratic just like going forward.  Thank you everyone for your advise, I will post when I get it back.

Mike

Sent MTH service an email through their website at 12:00pm today left for work came home checked email, no reply yet.  Not a good sign.  Might just have to call MTH service tomorrow or Wednesday.

Michael,

You will do much better by calling, rather than sending  an  E-maIL.

Barry,

You are probably right I should have called instead of emailed. I will wait a day or two then follow up with a phone call.

Mike

Called MTH Service dept. today got my RA# now have to mail train in. Tech said should be two to three weeks. I hope so but I think it might be longer. Lets see....