MTH Scaletrax ITAD wiring for trains in both directions

Which gates are you using?

I see the logic has having two triggers (IR device) When the train approaches the crossing and triggers the first it will then proceed and trigger the second. When it clears the first, the second will be activated until the train clears that one. That shouldn't be too bad and seems the simplest way to wire.

You'll have to wire the triggers differently if you want to isolate the triggers.

let's discuss the equipment that you have and how you would like it to operate.

I built relay boards to activate by the ITAD. One ITAD is giving it the go down signal and the other is giving it the stay up signal so you need to isolate the ITADs from the signals with a relay. I can post s diagram later 

Yikes!  Just what I was afraid of.  After I bought all of the ITAD's .  I am building the small layout for young children and wanted the gates to work no matter which way they run their trains.  I guess I can add in the extra devices since I have already paid for the controllers and I am ready to wire them in. 

Please send diagrams.

THanks.

Moonman posted:

Which gates are you using?

I see the logic has having two triggers (IR device) When the train approaches the crossing and triggers the first it will then proceed and trigger the second. When it clears the first, the second will be activated until the train clears that one. That shouldn't be too bad and seems the simplest way to wire.

You'll have to wire the triggers differently if you want to isolate the triggers.

let's discuss the equipment that you have and how you would like it to operate.

I am using the gates with a drop arm and flashing lights made by MTH RailKing.  No model number on the package.

Mike

MikeMcL posted:

Moonman posted:

Which gates are you using?

I see the logic has having two triggers (IR device) When the train approaches the crossing and triggers the first it will then proceed and trigger the second. When it clears the first, the second will be activated until the train clears that one. That shouldn't be too bad and seems the simplest way to wire.

You'll have to wire the triggers differently if you want to isolate the triggers.

let's discuss the equipment that you have and how you would like it to operate.

I am using the gates with a drop arm and flashing lights made by MTH RailKing.  No model number on the package.

Mike

Which one of these crossing gates? MTH Crossing Gates click

3-1073 or 30-11012?

30-11012.

MikeMcL posted:

30-11012.

 

 

Thanks, Mike. let's see what we can come up with for you.

Will this configuration work? It's a 8' straight? Grid = 12"

Your diagram doesn’t solve the wiring issue of how the crossings need to be isolated from the ITADs with a relay or they won’t go down until both ITADs are activated

Matt Makens posted:

Your diagram doesn’t solve the wiring issue of how the crossings need to be isolated from the ITADs with a relay or they won’t go down until both ITADs are activated

Taking it slow - why can't both crossings be wired together and then to each ITAD. Then, both will work from one ITAD. Normally Open - ITAD triggers both gates and they go down they stay down until train clears both ITADS - No delay set

I am checking the wiring diagrams to confirm. AUX power & Common to power ITAD - AUX power to crossing and wire to ITAD per Instructions

Why doesn't this work? 

Isn't the SCALETRAX ITAD a relay already? It has the NO and NC and COM terminals. I can see needing a relay with the RAILKING plug into track type sensor. It's only the Sensor.

Mike,

You have this ITAD, yes?

https://ogrforum.com/...-2-mth-45-1028-itads

In short, you need the additional relay.  Assuming you are powering the ITADs and gates with AC Auxiliary voltage.

The Lionel method you mentioned and the above method are essentially the same - both use an external relay.  It's just the Lionel method uses a DC relay in conjunction with a diode to convert the AC to DC.  The above thread shows an off-the-shelf relay that accepts AC.  Matt may have yet another method but it sounds like it too uses the external relay.

Yikes.  lot's of ideas.  Fits, Carl...yes I have the exact ITAD you show in your email. 

I called MTH today and they seemed to think the actuaters would work and did not mention the need for additional diodes or relays.  Now I am even more confused. 

Mike

When wiring the crossing gates they need a signal for the gates to go down which is the normally open of the ITAD relay, they also need a signal for the gates to go up which is normally closed terminals of the ITAD relay. There is always power through the normally closed set of terminals and the micro switches on the crossing gates shut of power to the motors when the arms reach their stopping points. Now when you wire up one ITAD you have only one set of signals going to the crossing gates however when you add a second ITAD then you add a second set of signals. When one ITAD gets activated the relay clses and sends the signal for the normally open terminals on the relay to lower the gates. Now the second ITAD has not been activated so it is still sending the signal through the normally closed terminals on the ITAD relay for the gates to stay open so the lights will blink but the gates will not go down because they are getting conflicting signals. Putting a rectifier and a 12 volt relay on the normally open terminals of the ITAD and wiring the crossing gates through the contacts of the relay eliminates the opposing signals.

Moonman posted:

Isn't the SCALETRAX ITAD a relay already? It has the NO and NC and COM terminals. I can see needing a relay with the RAILKING plug into track type sensor. It's only the Sensor.

If you mean this MTH occupancy sensor that plugs into Realtrax, there is a relay inside.

From the thread I referenced earlier, when using two of these sensors, you still need an external relay to arbitrate any conflicts (when one sensor says to raise gates while the other says to lower gates).

note: diagram updated from initial post to improve clarity

MikeMcL posted:

...

I called MTH today and they seemed to think the actuaters would work and did not mention the need for additional diodes or relays.  

Ask them for a diagram.   Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

From the thread I referenced earlier, when using two of these sensors, you still need an external relay to arbitrate any conflicts (when one sensor says to raise gates while the other says to lower gates).

Thank you, Stan. Now, I see the issue. When the train has only activated one ITAD, the lights get up and down simultaneously.

Mike,

Use Stan's diagram and the Azatrax MRAPR-12 relay. Get it here.  You will use the 14 volt accessory terminals from the transformer.

Interesting 

that is not the same ITAD in the photo as i have.  Mine sit next to the track just like the Lionel IR does.  model number 40-1028. 

Follow the diagram tho cuz the terminals are the same 

Matt Makens posted:

When wiring the crossing gates they need a signal for the gates to go down which is the normally open of the ITAD relay, they also need a signal for the gates to go up which is normally closed terminals of the ITAD relay. There is always power through the normally closed set of terminals and the micro switches on the crossing gates shut of power to the motors when the arms reach their stopping points. Now when you wire up one ITAD you have only one set of signals going to the crossing gates however when you add a second ITAD then you add a second set of signals. When one ITAD gets activated the relay clses and sends the signal for the normally open terminals on the relay to lower the gates. Now the second ITAD has not been activated so it is still sending the signal through the normally closed terminals on the ITAD relay for the gates to stay open so the lights will blink but the gates will not go down because they are getting conflicting signals. Putting a rectifier and a 12 volt relay on the normally open terminals of the ITAD and wiring the crossing gates through the contacts of the relay eliminates the opposing signals.

Matt,

So what would it look like with one crossing with two gates, two tracks, and two directions of travel?

If don't mind minor DIY wiring (no soldering required), here's one way to implement the external arbitration relay for less than $3 out-of-pocket (free shipping from Asia).

A single external arbitration relay can handle 2 (or more) ITADs and 2 (or more) crossing gates.  Note that additional crossing gates do not need their BLUE wire connected to anything.

Off-the-shelf AC relays can be hard to find, and you might find you're paying more for shipping than the relay itself!  Many ways to implement an AC relay using a more common and typically less expensive DC relay.  You can add diodes or bridge-rectifiers.  The nice thing about the eBay module approach is there are screw-terminals all-around so no soldering.

Here's the eBay module approach in greater detail:

The two modules are an AC-to-DC voltage regulator module to convert AC to 12V DC.  And a 12V DC relay module.  As shown, the relay module has 3 inputs on the left side; the lower 2 inputs are connected together.  There is a jumper pin on the top which must be installed as shown to effect a so-called "Low" level trigger.

Note that this can also be used for insulated-rail triggering for accessories that are powered one way when "idle" and another way when "triggered".  The crossing gate is a good example though I'd guess 2/3 aspect signals are probably the most common example.

stan2004 posted:

If don't mind minor DIY wiring (no soldering required), here's one way to implement the external arbitration relay for less than $3 out-of-pocket (free shipping from Asia).

A single external arbitration relay can handle 2 (or more) ITADs and 2 (or more) crossing gates.  Note that additional crossing gates do not need their BLUE wire connected to anything.

Off-the-shelf AC relays can be hard to find, and you might find you're paying more for shipping than the relay itself!  Many ways to implement an AC relay using a more common and typically less expensive DC relay.  You can add diodes or bridge-rectifiers.  The nice thing about the eBay module approach is there are screw-terminals all-around so no soldering.

Here's the eBay module approach in greater detail:

The two modules are an AC-to-DC voltage regulator module to convert AC to 12V DC.  And a 12V DC relay module.  As shown, the relay module has 3 inputs on the left side; the lower 2 inputs are connected together.  There is a jumper pin on the top which must be installed as shown to effect a so-called "Low" level trigger.

Note that this can also be used for insulated-rail triggering for accessories that are powered one way when "idle" and another way when "triggered".  The crossing gate is a good example though I'd guess 2/3 aspect signals are probably the most common example.

Stan,

I finally received the parts and am getting ready to finish this project. 

I have two tracks to protect with two RK gates . I found that one Itad at each side of the crossing doesn't work; because even with the sensitivity cranked up the outside track doesn't trigger the Itad if the engine and rolling stock are dark. I can put an unpainted aluminum car there and it triggers; but if I put a Brunswick green or Tuscan car there it's no good. So that's why I need two Itads on each end. I thought that I saw a drawing showing more that two Itads; but now I can't find it.

There may well have been a diagram but I just modified the above diagram.  Each additional ITAD has 3 connections to the existing wiring - shown here as orange, red, and black wires.

pennsyfan posted:

Matt Makens posted:

When wiring the crossing gates they need a signal for the gates to go down which is the normally open of the ITAD relay, they also need a signal for the gates to go up which is normally closed terminals of the ITAD relay. There is always power through the normally closed set of terminals and the micro switches on the crossing gates shut of power to the motors when the arms reach their stopping points. Now when you wire up one ITAD you have only one set of signals going to the crossing gates however when you add a second ITAD then you add a second set of signals. When one ITAD gets activated the relay clses and sends the signal for the normally open terminals on the relay to lower the gates. Now the second ITAD has not been activated so it is still sending the signal through the normally closed terminals on the ITAD relay for the gates to stay open so the lights will blink but the gates will not go down because they are getting conflicting signals. Putting a rectifier and a 12 volt relay on the normally open terminals of the ITAD and wiring the crossing gates through the contacts of the relay eliminates the opposing signals.

Matt,

So what would it look like with one crossing with two gates, two tracks, and two directions of travel?

It looks exactly the same. this is for 2 itads with 2 directions of travel. You can hook up as many or few gates as you want. you can even add a bell player if you want

 

stan2004 posted:

There may well have been a diagram but I just modified the above diagram.  Each additional ITAD has 3 connections to the existing wiring - shown here as orange, red, and black wires.

Thanks Stan!

This seems this would be a good place to use an isolated rail

Try a shield over top of the windows on the ITAD to determine if the room lighting is too bright for the dark cars.

Thought #2 - perhaps conspicuity reflective markings on the dark cars would trigger the sensor. The tape kits are sold to make the cars look to be in current compliance.

With diy sensors, grj found verticle stacking sensor set worked better than side by side . Can't do that with the ITAD.

After getting hosed by the Ebay seller WEbehonest; they sent the wrong product and wouldn't make good. This project was stalled until I saw this post; "153IR - Is it operationally dependable ?" in which RICKO responded about Azatrax train detectors. I ordered the MRD6X for two tracks. I also needed a relay for the RK gates. I just finised installing them and they work great. To make it even better, john Parsons is very reachable and helpful.

Thanks again RICKO!

Stan....  I have the relay...  ITAD and Gates arriving tomorrow....   looking at the diagram above for the relay I ordered there is an unlabled black  wire from the ITAD to the relay (K2)...  is this from the COM of the ITAD?   thx Rick

Yes.  In above edited diagram I show the internal ITAD connection.  The black wire from Relay K2 can go to either ITAD.

Good..  we are referencing the same diogram...  but the copy you just sent appears to have two lines (although just might be scratches) drawn from East ITAD COM bridging to East ITAD Neg power...  and West ITAD COM bridging to WEST ITAD Neg power.... 

if so...   then can I not bridge to ITAD's NEG power but go straight to my Neg power strip?...  ITAD screws so tiny, hard to get two wires attached

told ya I was dense...  thank you so much for your help/patience 

Right.  As re-drawn above you can make the black-wire Relay K2 connection to your AC Accessory common. 

Additionally, I previously showed 2 red wires going to the "NO" screw-terminal of the east ITAD.  This was not to imply you need to connect two wires to that screw-terminal.  You can make the red-wire connection as re-drawn above...so only 1 wire goes to a any particular screw-terminal.

Those scratches are internal connections (inside the ITAD); the ITAD comes this way.  I probably shouldn't have used light purple though I fattened up the scratches in above to make them more obvious.  Again, you do NOT need to add these connections.

Stan...  after two years of intense frustrations I now have working crossing gates servicing a double mainline.  I can't begin to express my appreciation for you help...  twas an early Christmas present for me and my wife...  Thank you.  I'm ordering two more relays for the other two locations that  I want gates.  ((I was delayed cause the new gates I ordered were both bad...  oh what fun))

Rick

Ricksch posted:

 

...  after two years of intense frustrations I now have working crossing gates servicing a double mainline ...

Good things come to those who wait...

Thanks for the feedback and kind words.  

@stan2004 posted:

Right.  As re-drawn above you can make the black-wire Relay K2 connection to your AC Accessory common.

Additionally, I previously showed 2 red wires going to the "NO" screw-terminal of the east ITAD.  This was not to imply you need to connect two wires to that screw-terminal.  You can make the red-wire connection as re-drawn above...so only 1 wire goes to a any particular screw-terminal.

Those scratches are internal connections (inside the ITAD); the ITAD comes this way.  I probably shouldn't have used light purple though I fattened up the scratches in above to make them more obvious.  Again, you do NOT need to add these connections.

It's so easy to find answers on this forum.  Of course, I should have come here first instead of trying to figure it out myself for the last 3 hours. 

Thanks Stan

One of those "I could have had a V8" moments.

Steve, just sign up to fallow Stan! That's what I did! LOL

I've read all this thread, but my question is how would I connect a two wire crossing gates with two itads?  Needing help on this.